PNC 6/19/13

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::PNC Meeting Agenda::

--- 06/19/2013 21:00h EDT ---
Room: #pnc


  • Discussion of High-Speed Internet Service Provider (HSISP)
    • Have a more thorough document before adding HSISP to policy.
    • Perhaps add "Universal Connectivity" as a flyer slogan
    • Discusion of HSISP ended and will be brought up at next meeting along with supporting document(s)
  • Discussion of Energy Policy
    • Alternative energies to be considered for powering HSISP Infastructure
    • Decentralization of energy production brought up as policy point
    • Discussion of energy policy postponed to next meeting
  • Discussion of National Security (NatSec)
    • Begins with timely discussion of PRISM controversy
    • Agreement on the fact that surveilance, especially of this kind, should not be done without a warrant
    • Ownership of call logs/data should be returned to the people who created them
    • petition recommended for all
    • Motion to allow Captain Lindsay-Anne Brunner to sign petition on behalf of USPP
      • Motion passed, unanimous agreement
  • Meeting adjourned


1.1 - Members of the PNC

  • Attending
    • Stuart Gavin, WI
    • Lucia Fiero, MA
    • Daniel Gorski, NY
    • Bradley Hall, FL
  • Excused
  • Unexcused
    • Washington
    • Oregon
    • California
    • Georgia
  • Probation

1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC

  • Garrett West, MN
  • Steven Smith, FL

1.3 - Officers of the PNC

  • Lindsay-Anne Brunner - Captain
  • Caleb Langeslag - First Mate
  • Daniel Gorski - Quartermaster

1.4 - Other Attendess


  • Meeting called to order at: 9:35pm EDT
  • Meeting chaired by Lindsay-Anne Brunner
  • Secretary for this meeting is Caleb Langeslag
  • Quorum is established: 4 out of 8 Members present
  • Logging Enabled: Yes

3 - Review of previous minutes



Sent from HariSeldon: The WIPP is working in full swing, preparing for our first state convention, which will be on the same day as Boston: June 29th! The convention will be at 10am in Red Arrow Park in downtown Milwaukee. If any of you can make it to the convention, please do! And, if anyone would like to speak at the convention, please send us an email or message of some sort! We would love to have speakers from other states. This will be as big an event as we can possibly make it. So far, despite only having four or five people working on getting this convention together, we have not only made the park reservation (which includes noise permits and insurance), we have also reserved a microphone and speaker and 2 tents. We will be selling hundreds of newly designed WIPP buttons and shirts, inflating balloons, flying our pirate flag we are making, and handing out our signature purple flyers! We are about to finish our final poster for the event, which will be plastered all over the city by this Saturday. For the convention, we are still working on the line up of speakers. One of the announcements, however, will be that I am running for governor. So, that’s something to look forward to. As a 19-year-old student, I won’t be able to raise much in campaign funds, but having someone as young as me will certainly get the word out about the party. And really, that is the current objective. We aim to get at least the 2% of the vote required to be on the state ballots. Once we have ballot status in the state, getting into minor offices and really trying to run campaigns will be much easier. If anyone knows someone in Wisconsin, send them to us! If anyone has campaign suggestions, let me know! And if anyone has any questions about the convention, or would like to help in any way, feel free to contact me. Thanks!

4.1 - Short Report From Committees

IT Committee

5 - Agenda Items

  • Old business:
    • Continue discussion of HSISP for USPP Platform
    • Continue discussion of USPP Platform items, such as Energy, National Security, and other Policy items to be determined by the PNC

- AOB -

  • Next meeting: June 26th at 9:00PM EDT
  • Meeting closed: 11:47PM EDT

- Logs of the Meeting -

Jun 19 20:35:20 <kusanagi>        ok, it's a bit late, 9:35pm Meeting called!
Jun 19 20:35:21 *        stubuntu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
Jun 19 20:35:22 *        stubuntu_ is now known as stubuntu
Jun 19 20:35:25 <Bluestreak_>        I was just FBing anywya
Jun 19 20:35:33 <kusanagi>        Please state your name and state
Jun 19 20:35:36 <OyajiVyse>        Hey lol
Jun 19 20:35:43 <Bluestreak_>        Lucia Fiero, MA
Jun 19 20:36:20 <narrenburg>        Steven Smith, youth member, FL (not rep)
Jun 19 20:37:26 <OyajiVyse>        Daniel Gorski, Quartermaster, NYPP rep
Jun 19 20:37:30 <Rush>        Bradley Hall, FLPP, FL Rep
Jun 19 20:37:34 <kusanagi>        Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, Capt.
Jun 19 20:38:14 <stubuntu>        Stuart Gavin, WI
Jun 19 20:38:19 <stubuntu>        (rep)
Jun 19 20:38:27 <CalebLangeslag>        Caleb Langeslag, MN, First Mate (Vice Chair)
Jun 19 20:38:29 <Bluestreak_>        (me too rep MAPP)
Jun 19 20:38:57 *        kusanagi gives voice to Bluestreak_
Jun 19 20:38:59 *        kusanagi gives voice to stubuntu
Jun 19 20:39:01 <Dash>        Garrett, MN
Jun 19 20:39:13 <kusanagi>        Dash: full name is required.
Jun 19 20:39:42 <Dash>        Garrett West, MN
Jun 19 20:40:12 <kusanagi>        thanks
Jun 19 20:40:28 <kusanagi>        awesome, so agenda's up in the topic
Jun 19 20:40:47 <kusanagi>        we all agree on it, correct?
Jun 19 20:42:47 <Rush>        Aye
Jun 19 20:43:33 <Bluestreak_>        Regarding 1st point:
Jun 19 20:43:56 <Bluestreak_>        "Bridging the Digital Divide"
Jun 19 20:44:08 <Bluestreak_>        (Aye BTW)
Jun 19 20:45:55 <kusanagi>        that goes perfectly in-hand, heh
Jun 19 20:46:49 *        stubuntu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
Jun 19 20:46:50 <Bluestreak_>        Formulating a supportive reply now
Jun 19 20:47:32 *        stubuntu ( has joined
Jun 19 20:47:49 <kusanagi>        we don't work with the pirate underground, but we do often take suggestions from there as they can't implement a policy
Jun 19 20:48:39 <Bluestreak_>        Sure thing.
Jun 19 20:50:06 <kusanagi>        as that was the original intention.. i think
Jun 19 20:50:10 *        kusanagi shrugs
Jun 19 20:51:19 <kusanagi>        did anyone want to bring up an additional point on HSISP on its own/
Jun 19 20:51:27 <Bluestreak_>        So I thought I would show it to you all before we started the HSISP for all discussion
Jun 19 20:52:06 <Rush>        What does hsisp mean
Jun 19 20:52:29 <narrenburg>        High speed internet service provider?
Jun 19 20:52:33 <Bluestreak_>        yes
Jun 19 20:52:35 <kusanagi>        narrenburg: got it
Jun 19 20:52:42 <Bluestreak_>        As opposed to dial up for all
Jun 19 20:53:20 <Bluestreak_>        The military got their highway system
Jun 19 20:53:48 <Bluestreak_>        The People should have the infrastructure for all who want to to connect
Jun 19 20:54:12 *        kusanagi gives voice to stubuntu
Jun 19 20:56:05 <kusanagi>        We did talk at length about it, and I fully agree with the idea, and would like to incorporate it
Jun 19 20:56:40 <Bluestreak_>        All we have to do is put the word out and let the swarm make it happen
Jun 19 20:56:55 <Bluestreak_>        Can you tell I have been reading Falkvinge?
Jun 19 20:57:55 <kusanagi>        Don't rely on the swarm, at least not yet
Jun 19 20:58:22 <Bluestreak_>        LOL no of course not
Jun 19 21:00:03 <kusanagi>        So, is there any other points on this? because we can bring it to a vote now, if we all are in agreement
Jun 19 21:00:16 <CalebLangeslag>        Then what's the motion?
Jun 19 21:01:37 <kusanagi>        MOtion would have to be made
Jun 19 21:02:13 <CalebLangeslag>        It would be best to be adding text to a document, such as an official Platform document, favoring the idea of supporting policies that facilitate broadband internet access, rather than a very specific implementation
Jun 19 21:03:14 <Bluestreak_>        "policies that facilitate broadband internet access"
Jun 19 21:03:58 <Bluestreak_>        Why can't we just say that a goal of the USPP is universal connectivity?
Jun 19 21:04:17 <Bluestreak_>        Say what we want then set about getting it done.
Jun 19 21:04:39 <Bluestreak_>        You have to articulate your goals first, right?
Jun 19 21:05:15 <narrenburg>        That's an excellent phrase.
Jun 19 21:05:19 <CalebLangeslag>        I have no objection to summarizing it to "universal connectivity" perhaps
Jun 19 21:06:24 *        Oyaji_Vyse ( has joined
Jun 19 21:06:24 <Bluestreak_>        For the US at least
Jun 19 21:06:55 *        Oyaji_Vyse has quit (Client Quit)
Jun 19 21:06:58 *        OyajiVyse has quit (Quit: OyajiVyse)
Jun 19 21:07:18 *        OyajiVyse ( has joined
Jun 19 21:07:18 *        ChanServ gives channel operator status to OyajiVyse
Jun 19 21:07:20 <CalebLangeslag>        But I believe it would be best to have a formal platform/policy document of the party, and have any such verbage regarding 'universal connectivity in the US' to be written out and planned in-advance, rather than on-the-fly
Jun 19 21:08:22 <kusanagi>        So, work that out tonight, vote at later date?
Jun 19 21:08:53 <CalebLangeslag>        Possibly
Jun 19 21:09:01 <Bluestreak_>        I am putting something like that together now, OK?
Jun 19 21:09:08 <narrenburg>        If I may: "Universal connectivity" sounds like perfect poster/flyer wording.
Jun 19 21:09:13 <kusanagi>        that's fine, Bluestreak_ 
Jun 19 21:09:21 <Bluestreak_>        I will send put it on the Loomio page and send it to the SAB
Jun 19 21:09:22 <stubuntu>        i think there should be something about speed, because we are already universally connected with copper 
Jun 19 21:09:26 <CalebLangeslag>        My main point being: don't rush anything to vote, when nobody even has any text formed for such a motion
Jun 19 21:09:57 <Bluestreak_>        Yes service delayed is service denied!
Jun 19 21:10:21 <Bluestreak_>        Well, the plan was to have a discussion tonight
Jun 19 21:10:25 <stubuntu>        ok
Jun 19 21:10:31 <Bluestreak_>        but no one was stepping up
Jun 19 21:10:35 <CalebLangeslag>        'universal connectivity' could be misperceived as 'interoperability' perhaps
Jun 19 21:10:43 <Bluestreak_>        I had My say about it on 5/22
Jun 19 21:10:47 *        xid ( has joined
Jun 19 21:10:56 <xid>        hi xid here from oregon checking in
Jun 19 21:11:01 <xid>        sorry for the delay
Jun 19 21:11:03 <Bluestreak_>        I like HSISP for all because it's clear
Jun 19 21:11:11 <kusanagi>        xid: full name
Jun 19 21:11:38 <kusanagi>        stubuntu: actually, the copper loines are getting cut wit hservices like FiOS 
Jun 19 21:11:43 <kusanagi>        lines
Jun 19 21:11:50 <xid>        we're on a full-name basis now?
Jun 19 21:11:56 <xid>        things have changed since I've been here last
Jun 19 21:11:59 <kusanagi>        We've been on one for about a year now.
Jun 19 21:12:18 <stubuntu>        wait, did they rip out the copper?
Jun 19 21:12:30 <kusanagi>        stubuntu: yep
Jun 19 21:12:31 <Bluestreak_>        Yes. We have no copper anymore to our house
Jun 19 21:12:37 <Bluestreak_>        We have Verizon
Jun 19 21:12:47 <stubuntu>        :( i'm a big fan of redundancies 
Jun 19 21:12:51 <xid>        Sorry, I can't use my full-name due to job security.
Jun 19 21:12:52 <Bluestreak_>        There is still copper IN OUR WALLS
Jun 19 21:12:58 <Bluestreak_>        but not from the poles
Jun 19 21:13:04 <xid>        don't want my name published
Jun 19 21:13:12 <kusanagi>        xid: then you can't participate.
Jun 19 21:13:24 <Bluestreak_>        Can he lurk?
Jun 19 21:13:34 <xid>        okay I'll notify the rest of the party what you told me
Jun 19 21:13:35 <xid>        thanks
Jun 19 21:13:37 *        xid ( has left
Jun 19 21:13:51 <Bluestreak_>        Ooh! He will NOTIFY!
Jun 19 21:14:08 <kusanagi>        lol, yeah. um, that wasw put in place last year.
Jun 19 21:14:12 <kusanagi>        so.. yeah.
Jun 19 21:14:19 <kusanagi>        Jorden should have told him that.
Jun 19 21:14:22 <kusanagi>        >.>
Jun 19 21:14:52 <kusanagi>        Anyway, as we were.
Jun 19 21:15:37 <kusanagi>        beck to "universal connectivity"
Jun 19 21:15:51 <Bluestreak_>        HIGH SPEED connectivity
Jun 19 21:16:02 <Bluestreak_>        That matters
Jun 19 21:16:22 <Bluestreak_>        Whole portions of the US can't get a decent connection speed
Jun 19 21:16:40 <narrenburg>        When rationalizing it, we shouldn't necessarily make the competitive argument for it at first, but it should be our arsenal.
Jun 19 21:17:12 <narrenburg>        The whole of western Europe, South Korea and Japan all have faster speeds than us.
Jun 19 21:17:47 <Bluestreak_>        My point is that the taxpayers already pay for the internet itself
Jun 19 21:17:59 <Bluestreak_>        we should have single payer ISP
Jun 19 21:18:07 <Fatbag>        <-- Andrew D'Addesio, TX
Jun 19 21:18:12 <Bluestreak_>        Or completely paid for
Jun 19 21:18:16 <Bluestreak_>        Hey!
Jun 19 21:18:26 <Fatbag>        Hi
Jun 19 21:18:42 <Bluestreak_>        Go the extra step and fund the ACCESS to it as well as the structure and support of it
Jun 19 21:18:48 <stubuntu>        we should do an australian style NBN for the us
Jun 19 21:19:13 <Fatbag>        lol "hey" is one of those words
Jun 19 21:19:39 <Bluestreak_>        Oh dont start
Jun 19 21:20:01 <Bluestreak_>        Is NBN govt or corporate?
Jun 19 21:20:16 <Bluestreak_>        And it is still rolling out now, isn't it?
Jun 19 21:20:22 <Bluestreak_>        BIG country, like the US!
Jun 19 21:20:23 <stubuntu>        mixed
Jun 19 21:20:33 <Bluestreak_>        AH! Mixed sucks
Jun 19 21:20:39 <Rush>        Okay, so how do we make it so that AOL, Comcast, etc, stop charging people for Internet? There are small companies around the country that are ISPs, we'd be putting a lot of people out of work, also, who is going to maintain the Government Internet?
Jun 19 21:20:43 <Bluestreak_>        All nationalized
Jun 19 21:20:50 <stubuntu>        well its a government owned company
Jun 19 21:21:04 <stubuntu>        like postal service, but it's not part of the regular budget
Jun 19 21:21:04 <Bluestreak_>        We NATIONALIZE the ISPs
Jun 19 21:21:10 <Bluestreak_>        Commandeer them. We are Pirates
Jun 19 21:21:24 <Bluestreak_>        Oh like postal service isnt a bad idea
Jun 19 21:21:25 <Rush>        So we tell Comcast that part of their stuff belongs to us now?
Jun 19 21:21:31 <Bluestreak_>        Basically
Jun 19 21:21:40 <Bluestreak_>        We have more than paid for the infrastructure
Jun 19 21:21:51 <Bluestreak_>        their fees are exorbitant!
Jun 19 21:21:54 <Fatbag>        it's true
Jun 19 21:22:03 <Bluestreak_>        and they have been subsidized
Jun 19 21:22:09 <Fatbag>        maybe a little less so for Google Fiber. Which is coming to Austin, TX. :D
Jun 19 21:22:43 <Bluestreak_>        Less so for now, but give them time
Jun 19 21:22:46 <narrenburg>        Rush, do you know who Gamal Abdel Nasser is?
Jun 19 21:23:03 <Bluestreak_>        Are we changing the subject?
Jun 19 21:23:06 <narrenburg>        No.
Jun 19 21:23:12 <Rush>        No
Jun 19 21:23:31 <narrenburg>        He was the Second President of Egypt.
Jun 19 21:23:50 <narrenburg>        He sent 20 of his men to the Suez Canal offices.
Jun 19 21:23:51 <Bluestreak_>        He nationalized the canal
Jun 19 21:24:01 <narrenburg>        (At the time, it was owned by British and French corporations.)
Jun 19 21:24:11 <narrenburg>        At gunpoint, they nationalized the canal within minutes.
Jun 19 21:24:14 <Rush>        Yeah, I remember that
Jun 19 21:24:18 <Bluestreak_>        Who built it? Egypotian workers
Jun 19 21:24:35 <Bluestreak_>        Where was it? On their land?
Jun 19 21:25:13 <Bluestreak_>        We can't be afraid to say what we woudl like to see
Jun 19 21:25:47 <Bluestreak_>        Saddam Hussien nationalized the oil fields
Jun 19 21:25:53 <Bluestreak_>        So did Chavez
Jun 19 21:26:04 <stubuntu>        yeah, so even if we were in power (prez, senate, and house) that would take a lot of political capital and really i don't think it would be worth the crap infrastructure they own
Jun 19 21:26:14 <Rush>        Mussolini made the trains run on time
Jun 19 21:26:18 <Bluestreak_>        We have to say what we want
Jun 19 21:26:21 <Bluestreak_>        lol
Jun 19 21:26:37 <Bluestreak_>        what we ant to see happen
Jun 19 21:26:56 <Bluestreak_>        What kind f national party can we be if half the country isnt' upt to speed?
Jun 19 21:27:07 *        narrenburg wants it clear that he doesn't not want Pirates to get armed
Jun 19 21:27:16 <Bluestreak_>        Of course NOT!
Jun 19 21:27:29 *        narrenburg he also wants to make it clear that at night, his English grammar becomes horrible
Jun 19 21:27:29 <Bluestreak_>        We have to say we want it nationalized though
Jun 19 21:27:46 <Bluestreak_>        How that will happen will be up to the swarn
Jun 19 21:28:05 <Bluestreak_>        I am so not about revolution
Jun 19 21:28:25 <Bluestreak_>        I am about not sweating people's objections: SOCIALISM!
Jun 19 21:28:34 <Bluestreak_>        PRIVATE PROPERTY!
Jun 19 21:28:40 <Bluestreak_>        JOBS!
Jun 19 21:28:52 <Bluestreak_>        (Thank you, MSM.)
Jun 19 21:29:23 <Rush>        Narrenburg is right, it's late here on the East coast, we want to sleep, please, get on with the point.
Jun 19 21:29:47 <stubuntu>        table it?
Jun 19 21:30:17 <Bluestreak_>        Sigh. Fine
Jun 19 21:30:27 <Bluestreak_>        I will write a supporting document
Jun 19 21:30:46 <Bluestreak_>        Well finish it and submit it
Jun 19 21:30:50 <kusanagi>        Gotcha
Jun 19 21:31:09 <kusanagi>        Is there another consideration for policy?
Jun 19 21:31:18 <kusanagi>        energy, natsec, 
Jun 19 21:31:57 <kusanagi>        those were listed
Jun 19 21:32:30 <OyajiVyse>        well, if we're going to go with HSISP policy, energy is bound to come up sooner or later, no?
Jun 19 21:32:52 <kusanagi>        Did you have a suggestion, Mr Gorski?
Jun 19 21:33:28 <OyajiVyse>        just saying that with more internet infastructure, you'd need to power it
Jun 19 21:33:44 <OyajiVyse>        especially if we're trying to make it universal
Jun 19 21:33:46 <kusanagi>        Yeah.
Jun 19 21:34:15 <OyajiVyse>        not necessarily from an environmentalist point either (though they do go hand in hand)
Jun 19 21:34:31 <Bluestreak_>        Sustainabilty is possible
Jun 19 21:34:39 <OyajiVyse>        a part of HSISP would be reliability, which would mean reliable energy
Jun 19 21:34:48 <Bluestreak_>        Build green infrastructure along side it
Jun 19 21:34:59 <OyajiVyse>        for me, that means sustainable, affordable, and durable
Jun 19 21:35:36 <Bluestreak_>        The perception that only fossil fuel energy is reliable is coming from a media mostly sponsored by fossil fuels
Jun 19 21:35:39 <OyajiVyse>        honestly, I'm a big proponent for Solar, Wind/Hydro, Geothermal, and Nuclear, but there are pros and cons with each of those
Jun 19 21:35:49 *        matuck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
Jun 19 21:35:50 <Bluestreak_>        What cons?
Jun 19 21:36:02 <Bluestreak_>        Srsly
Jun 19 21:36:13 <Bluestreak_>        Besides NUKES
Jun 19 21:36:17 <Bluestreak_>        that is all con
Jun 19 21:36:33 <Rush>        When there's a spill of solar energy, it's called a nice day
Jun 19 21:36:40 <Bluestreak_>        exactly
Jun 19 21:36:42 <Bluestreak_>        No nukes
Jun 19 21:36:48 <OyajiVyse>        honestly, aside from the few incidents
Jun 19 21:36:53 <OyajiVyse>        nuclear is the most reliable and clean
Jun 19 21:36:56 <Rush>        When there's a spill of wind and water energy, it's called a hurricane
Jun 19 21:37:13 <OyajiVyse>        yes, there's nuclear waste to conisder
Jun 19 21:37:14 <Bluestreak_>        Tell that to the displaced people of Fukushima and Pripiyat
Jun 19 21:37:14 <stubuntu>        hehe
Jun 19 21:37:40 <Bluestreak_>        if Nukes go wrong they go spectacularly wrong no thanks
Jun 19 21:37:41 <stubuntu>        that was to rush's comment
Jun 19 21:37:48 <Bluestreak_>        IK
Jun 19 21:37:53 <OyajiVyse>        what happened to them is terrible, yes, but they're exceptions, not norms
Jun 19 21:38:10 <OyajiVyse>        and Fukushima is it's own thing, let's not get into that
Jun 19 21:38:10 <Rush>        Yes, and Kenneth Anderson says that several pounds of materials unaccounted for are reported at the places they store nuclear waste
Jun 19 21:38:11 <Bluestreak_>        OMG GO LIVE IN FUKUSHIMA!
Jun 19 21:38:20 <stubuntu>        so we're debating energy policy
Jun 19 21:38:22 *        matuck_ (~matuck@205.144.iys.ix) has joined
Jun 19 21:38:23 <Bluestreak_>        They nuclear industry is so corrupt
Jun 19 21:38:30 <narrenburg>        1: What does green mean to you?
Jun 19 21:38:38 <Bluestreak_>        they thwart the saftety standards that would prevent disaster
Jun 19 21:39:18 <Bluestreak_>        Green energy?
Jun 19 21:39:20 <OyajiVyse>        technically, every industry is so corrupt
Jun 19 21:39:39 <Bluestreak_>        Capitalism is the problem
Jun 19 21:39:40 <OyajiVyse>        narrenburg: I'm not necessarily talking about green
Jun 19 21:40:00 <narrenburg>        Yea, what sources?
Jun 19 21:40:03 <Bluestreak_>        Capitalism abhors sustainable
Jun 19 21:40:12 <Bluestreak_>        Capitalism needs repeat business
Jun 19 21:40:25 <Bluestreak_>        If you build a windmill the fuel is forever free
Jun 19 21:40:39 <narrenburg>        Because I haven't seen anyone in congress talk about geothermal power, wave power on the coasts, or using algae on a large scale for biofuel.
Jun 19 21:40:41 <OyajiVyse>        so you don't like windmills?
Jun 19 21:40:43 <Bluestreak_>        if you build a gas turbine the owner has to return for gas all the time
Jun 19 21:40:59 <Bluestreak_>        Congress is owned by CAPITALISTS
Jun 19 21:41:08 <OyajiVyse>        narrenburg: algae batteries would be awesome, but only viable for coastal populations, no?
Jun 19 21:41:23 <narrenburg>        Because our coastal population is small.
Jun 19 21:41:24 <Bluestreak_>        Solar and wind are more than enough
Jun 19 21:41:31 <Rush>        No
Jun 19 21:41:31 <stubuntu>        okay, we're not going to get consensus on nuclear anytime soon, or newer technologies
Jun 19 21:41:38 <stubuntu>        how about energy decentralizatiom
Jun 19 21:41:46 <Bluestreak_>        The prairie is empty and windy and should be FILLED with windmills by now
Jun 19 21:41:47 <narrenburg>        Bluestreak_: They may be more than enough when built up, but they're expensive/hard to build.
Jun 19 21:41:51 <stubuntu>        right now we have centralized "factories" for energy
Jun 19 21:41:52 <Rush>        If I recall, 2/3rds of the US population lives within a hundred or two hundred miles of a coastline
Jun 19 21:41:53 <narrenburg>        It's so easy to build an algae pond.
Jun 19 21:42:01 <Bluestreak_>        Only because they are being thwarted
Jun 19 21:42:30 <stubuntu>        best thing we can do is decentralize that by having more solar, wind, etc. that is produced closer to where it is consumed
Jun 19 21:42:30 <Bluestreak_>        The fossil fuel lobby directs congress away from solar and wind
Jun 19 21:42:37 <stubuntu>        and then less is lost in transmission
Jun 19 21:42:43 <Bluestreak_>        Decentralization is a very Pirate ideal
Jun 19 21:42:52 <stubuntu>        it is
Jun 19 21:43:09 <Rush>        The first thing Ronald Reagan did as President is take credit for something Jimmy Carter did. The second thing he did was remove the solar panels Carter put on the White House
Jun 19 21:43:12 <Bluestreak_>        Also a plus when going renewable
Jun 19 21:43:19 <Bluestreak_>        Exactly
Jun 19 21:43:25 <stubuntu>        it fits in swimmingly, and then we can argue about nuclear and algae later
Jun 19 21:43:43 <Bluestreak_>        I 2nd putting off nukes and algea to later
Jun 19 21:43:50 *        matuck_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
Jun 19 21:44:21 *        matuck_ (~matuck@205.144.iys.ix) has joined
Jun 19 21:45:55 <kusanagi>        so, other renewables for now
Jun 19 21:46:11 <stubuntu>        and decentralizatio
Jun 19 21:46:14 <stubuntu>        n
Jun 19 21:46:53 <Bluestreak_>        Yes, definitely decentralization
Jun 19 21:47:07 <OyajiVyse>        agreed
Jun 19 21:48:20 <OyajiVyse>        so staying on energy or moving to natsec?
Jun 19 21:48:28 <stubuntu>        move
Jun 19 21:48:48 <Bluestreak_>        Sorry if this is hack job... I wrote I wrote it hastily One last point!
Jun 19 21:49:00 <Bluestreak_>
Jun 19 21:49:19 <Bluestreak_>        About renewables, capitalism and decentralization
Jun 19 21:49:24 <Bluestreak_>        I should rewrite it
Jun 19 21:49:41 <Bluestreak_>        OK ready to move on
Jun 19 21:49:51 <stubuntu>        nice
Jun 19 21:51:26 <kusanagi>        Ok, so, national security
Jun 19 21:51:43 <kusanagi>        this may be a biggie, considering prism
Jun 19 21:52:21 <OyajiVyse>        I'd agree on that
Jun 19 21:54:27 <Rush>        Parkside of the Noon
Jun 19 21:55:16 <Rush>        Yes, so, I'm curious, is the prism thing them listening to our calls, or just monitoring who we're calling?
Jun 19 21:55:49 <OyajiVyse>        both as far as I know
Jun 19 21:55:49 <narrenburg>        According to the specifications of PRISM, there is monitoring of who we're calling, how long we're talking to them, and where we are.
Jun 19 21:56:20 <stubuntu>        from what i understand, what narrenburg said
Jun 19 21:56:29 <narrenburg>        However, it's not unlikely that the NSA is also collecting the audio.
Jun 19 21:57:00 <Rush>        So... we should advocate burner phones?
Jun 19 21:57:05 <stubuntu>        haha
Jun 19 21:57:11 <Bluestreak_>        I heard they are also listening to content. Going to find the article...
Jun 19 21:57:23 <narrenburg>        Prepaid phones?
Jun 19 21:57:38 <narrenburg>        AT&T and T-Mobile have prepaid plans.
Jun 19 21:57:48 <Bluestreak_>
Jun 19 21:57:58 *        Bacon ( has joined
Jun 19 21:58:37 *        Bacon has quit (Client Quit)
Jun 19 21:59:10 <Bluestreak_>        LOL someone I know JUST switched to a prepaid phone
Jun 19 21:59:14 <Fatbag>        would be nice if TorChat supported VoIP
Jun 19 21:59:17 <Bluestreak_>        was wondering why
Jun 19 21:59:27 <Bluestreak_>        That would be nice
Jun 19 22:00:26 <stubuntu>        whatever they're doing I think we can agree it shouldn't be happening
Jun 19 22:00:32 <stubuntu>        without a warrent
Jun 19 22:00:43 <Bluestreak_>        agrees
Jun 19 22:00:48 <kusanagi>        major agree
Jun 19 22:01:11 <narrenburg>        In the interest of moderation, I agree.
Jun 19 22:01:27 <stubuntu>        this is slightly off topic, but it brings the fact that we don't own a lot of our data
Jun 19 22:01:28 <narrenburg>        But if you wanted the truth, I'd go as far as saying that it shouldn't happen at all.
Jun 19 22:01:36 <CalebLangeslag>        Too bad ZRTP can't be downloaded because of US Export law crap
Jun 19 22:01:45 <narrenburg>        (Period.)
Jun 19 22:01:47 <stubuntu>        noted 
Jun 19 22:01:52 <CalebLangeslag>        I mean, Zfone
Jun 19 22:02:52 <Bluestreak_>        My husband is texting me that he just recruited a Pirate in NJ
Jun 19 22:02:59 <Bluestreak_>        (aside)
Jun 19 22:03:01 <stubuntu>        nice
Jun 19 22:03:48 <Bluestreak_>        But there seems to be no NJPP?
Jun 19 22:03:58 <narrenburg>        There needs to be.
Jun 19 22:04:04 *        Bacon_ ( has joined
Jun 19 22:04:06 <Bluestreak_>        LOL maybe there will be now!
Jun 19 22:04:10 <kusanagi>        there is not a NJ
Jun 19 22:04:11 <narrenburg>        And I'm surprised that there isn't considering that there's a NYPP and MAPP
Jun 19 22:04:18 <kusanagi>        Beside the tpoic
Jun 19 22:04:21 <kusanagi>        topic
Jun 19 22:04:24 <Bluestreak_>        Yes sorry
Jun 19 22:04:56 <stubuntu>        so, as pirates we are most defiantly against large scale indiscriminate monitoring
Jun 19 22:05:07 <Bluestreak_>        So prepaid phones cant be listened to?
Jun 19 22:05:27 <stubuntu>        they can, but it's harder to link the person to the phone, especially if you pay in cash
Jun 19 22:05:28 <Bluestreak_>        stubuntu yes
Jun 19 22:05:32 <Rush>        I'm sure they can, it's just that you don't have to give up your home address or name to get them
Jun 19 22:05:53 <Bluestreak_>        What a nuicance
Jun 19 22:06:19 <Bluestreak_>        And you have to be calling someone with a prepaid on the other end
Jun 19 22:06:30 <Bluestreak_>        otherwise your friend could be listened to
Jun 19 22:06:48 <Bluestreak_>        (your comrade)
Jun 19 22:06:52 <stubuntu>        up for debate is if there is a circumstance (i.e. court ordered warren -similar to a search of a house) under which monitoring would be okay?
Jun 19 22:07:37 <narrenburg>        If you gave me more than 30 seconds to answer the question, I'd say no.
Jun 19 22:07:50 <stubuntu>        go
Jun 19 22:08:00 <narrenburg>        The thirty seconds passed already.
Jun 19 22:08:04 <stubuntu>        oh
Jun 19 22:08:05 <stubuntu>        haha
Jun 19 22:08:05 <stubuntu>        okay
Jun 19 22:08:14 <kusanagi>        hha
Jun 19 22:08:17 <kusanagi>        hah
Jun 19 22:08:41 <stubuntu>        either way that isn't really national security, that is law and order (more like individual crimes) so i think we can put that debate off on a technicality
Jun 19 22:09:02 <Bluestreak_>        They are selling it to us as Natl Sec
Jun 19 22:09:08 <stubuntu>        to me national security means big sweeping programs (military, security, etc)
Jun 19 22:09:10 <Bluestreak_>        the gov/media
Jun 19 22:09:11 <narrenburg>        Either it needs to be heavily monitored, and we get to know how many times people (without names, ofc) are getting monitored, or nothing atall.
Jun 19 22:09:38 <Bluestreak_>        People suspected of crime should be monitored with a warrant
Jun 19 22:09:49 <stubuntu>        law and order = small programs (i.e. police) and individuals
Jun 19 22:09:50 <narrenburg>        Freedoms of speech and privacy include confidentiality of the spoken word.
Jun 19 22:09:51 <Bluestreak_>        If they are planning larceny
Jun 19 22:10:03 <kusanagi>        and that warrant must be executed legally
Jun 19 22:10:06 <Bluestreak_>        violence
Jun 19 22:10:07 <narrenburg>        heavily regulated*
Jun 19 22:10:09 <stubuntu>        yes
Jun 19 22:10:11 <narrenburg>        I hope you knew what I meant.
Jun 19 22:10:11 <Bluestreak_>        yes
Jun 19 22:10:21 <Fatbag>        I definitely want to know the dates I have been monitored if I were arrested and they used my conversations to help convict me
Jun 19 22:10:41 <kusanagi>        i've seen a case where someone accused of horrid things could have gotten off because the police did a crap job on the warrant
Jun 19 22:10:55 <stubuntu>        however for national security, a nation wide program of surveillance that blankets either everyone or large classes of people is most definitely bad 
Jun 19 22:11:05 <stubuntu>        i did
Jun 19 22:11:06 <Bluestreak_>        agreed
Jun 19 22:11:18 <kusanagi>        yes
Jun 19 22:12:09 <narrenburg>        There was actually a suspected thief who wanted the monitored calls released to clear his name.
Jun 19 22:12:26 <narrenburg>        Which is a justification for us knowing who/when/where is getting monitored.
Jun 19 22:12:29 <Bluestreak_>        i saw that on FB
Jun 19 22:12:49 <stubuntu>        interesting
Jun 19 22:13:25 <narrenburg>        Representative Hall has stated his desire for me to assume position of representative of the Florida Pirate Party for the remainder of this meeting.
Jun 19 22:13:28 <narrenburg>        [23:10] <Rush> Narrenburg will you be okay to take over as Florida Rep if I leave the scene? [23:11] <narrenburg> Yea sure.
Jun 19 22:13:42 <Bluestreak_>        What they are pushing for in MA... MAPP is against it, of course
Jun 19 22:13:57 <stubuntu>        like I said before (i think it got lost somewhere). the program PRISM reminds me that we don't own most of our data. 
Jun 19 22:14:11 <Rush>        I thank you for stepping in, I shall now take my leave.
Jun 19 22:14:15 *        CalebLangeslag gives voice to narrenburg
Jun 19 22:14:22 <Bluestreak_>        Oh good point
Jun 19 22:14:25 <stubuntu>        it would be a separate policy (and off our current topic, my apologies) but i think we should have some type of policy regarding data ownership
Jun 19 22:14:30 *        CalebLangeslag removes voice from Rush
Jun 19 22:14:51 *        Rush has quit (Quit: ajax IRC Client)
Jun 19 22:14:53 <Bluestreak_>        Doesn;t that relate to the telecom companies ?
Jun 19 22:15:02 <stubuntu>        legally we don't own our call logs (from cell or landline, thanks to a supreme court decision) 
Jun 19 22:15:03 <stubuntu>        yes
Jun 19 22:15:24 <Bluestreak_>        NATIONALIZE!
Jun 19 22:15:27 <Bluestreak_>        AR!
Jun 19 22:15:39 <Bluestreak_>        Seize it all for the ppl!
Jun 19 22:15:59 <narrenburg>        Um...
Jun 19 22:16:02 <Bluestreak_>        lol
Jun 19 22:16:04 <Bluestreak_>        ]sorry
Jun 19 22:16:13 <narrenburg>        Doesn't nationalizing telekom make it EASIER for us to be spied on?
Jun 19 22:16:22 <Bluestreak_>        Yes
Jun 19 22:16:24 <stubuntu>        actually… privatize (our data)
Jun 19 22:16:35 <stubuntu>        give it back to the people who created it
Jun 19 22:16:39 <Bluestreak_>        But the companies being private isn't stopping it
Jun 19 22:16:45 <stubuntu>        "it" being ownership of the data
Jun 19 22:17:56 <Bluestreak_>        narrenburg but not if Pirates were in charge!
Jun 19 22:18:05 <narrenburg>        I guess.
Jun 19 22:18:16 <stubuntu>        whether it's a nationalized telecom or private companies
Jun 19 22:18:24 <stubuntu>        the individual who creates the data should own it
Jun 19 22:18:41 <Bluestreak_>        Corporations own the courts, too
Jun 19 22:18:46 <Bluestreak_>        SCOTUS at least
Jun 19 22:19:40 <stubuntu>        trueski
Jun 19 22:20:00 *        Bacon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
Jun 19 22:20:04 <narrenburg>        brb5min
Jun 19 22:20:04 <Bluestreak_>        So data ownership policy?
Jun 19 22:20:09 <Bluestreak_>        k
Jun 19 22:21:17 <kusanagi>        we'd need to draw that up
Jun 19 22:21:36 <kusanagi>        also, in a slightly related note, the petition..
Jun 19 22:21:52 <kusanagi>        totally just remembered, but if you've not signed it, you should
Jun 19 22:21:57 <narrenburg>        back
Jun 19 22:22:33 <kusanagi>        i'd like to sign it as an organization, but i wanted to run that by first
Jun 19 22:23:33 <narrenburg>        What would the first and last names be?
Jun 19 22:23:46 <narrenburg>        FN: UNITED STATES LN: PIRATE PARTY?
Jun 19 22:24:48 <kusanagi>        No, I'll contact the EFF and have us added as the org
Jun 19 22:24:54 <stubuntu>        i have that email starred form the eff.. should do that now that i have time
Jun 19 22:24:59 <kusanagi>        though that would be funny
Jun 19 22:25:06 <Bluestreak_>        I laughed
Jun 19 22:25:26 <stubuntu>        I move that we grant the captain authority to sign the petition on behalf of the USPP
Jun 19 22:25:44 <stubuntu>        or the captain's designee 
Jun 19 22:26:11 <Bluestreak_>        2nd
Jun 19 22:27:52 <kusanagi>        move to discuss or vote?
Jun 19 22:29:13 <stubuntu>        to vote
Jun 19 22:29:26 <stubuntu>        seeing as no discussion
Jun 19 22:29:34 <kusanagi>         gotcha, sorry
Jun 19 22:29:43 <kusanagi>        i have to get my pain meds going lol
Jun 19 22:29:48 <stubuntu>        hahaha
Jun 19 22:29:56 <stubuntu>        no worries
Jun 19 22:30:24 <Bluestreak_>        vote
Jun 19 22:30:42 <kusanagi>        move to grant Ms. Brunner ot her designee the authority to contact the EFF on behalf of the USPP in regard to their petition
Jun 19 22:30:46 <kusanagi>        ack
Jun 19 22:30:52 <kusanagi>        VOTE to grant Ms. Brunner ot her designee the authority to contact the EFF on behalf of the USPP in regard to their petition
Jun 19 22:30:59 <kusanagi>        Aye, nay, etc
Jun 19 22:31:01 <stubuntu>        aye
Jun 19 22:31:09 *        narrenburg says aye
Jun 19 22:31:18 <Bluestreak_>        aye
Jun 19 22:31:24 <OyajiVyse>        aye
Jun 19 22:32:32 <kusanagi>        called vote, looks unianimous
Jun 19 22:32:47 <kusanagi>        (and i'm sorry for saing move when I meant vote)
Jun 19 22:33:13 <stubuntu>        no worries
Jun 19 22:34:04 <kusanagi>        ok, and after the meeting i'll get on that, shoot an email over
Jun 19 22:34:09 <narrenburg>        It's almost Thursday.
Jun 19 22:34:11 <narrenburg>        Don't worry.
Jun 19 22:36:42 <kusanagi>        It is getting late, so..
Jun 19 22:36:50 <kusanagi>        Are there any more policy ideas to bring forth/
Jun 19 22:37:16 <stubuntu>        I think we've had a robust enough of a conversation for the day
Jun 19 22:37:28 <stubuntu>        (read: I'm sleepy)
Jun 19 22:37:32 <kusanagi>        Bluestreak_: how's it on your end?
Jun 19 22:37:44 <Bluestreak_>        I could sleep
Jun 19 22:37:57 <Bluestreak_>        I talked a lot
Jun 19 22:37:57 <OyajiVyse>        sleep sounds wonderful right about now
Jun 19 22:38:12 <kusanagi>        ok, so someone should move to conitue policy later
Jun 19 22:38:18 <Bluestreak_>        I move
Jun 19 22:38:25 <kusanagi>        to the bed?
Jun 19 22:38:27 <kusanagi>        lol
Jun 19 22:38:29 <Bluestreak_>        lol
Jun 19 22:38:32 <stubuntu>        seconded
Jun 19 22:38:35 <Bluestreak_>        Actually I am in bed
Jun 19 22:38:42 <stubuntu>        except to a dif
Jun 19 22:38:45 <Bluestreak_>        I always Pirate chat in bed
Jun 19 22:38:45 <stubuntu>        bed
Jun 19 22:38:51 <stubuntu>        nice
Jun 19 22:38:59 <Bluestreak_>        On the laptop on the nightstand
Jun 19 22:39:06 <kusanagi>        I'm laughing so hard right now, i'm doing the same thing
Jun 19 22:39:07 <kusanagi>        yep
Jun 19 22:39:14 <Bluestreak_>        SO COMFY!
Jun 19 22:39:17 <stubuntu>        am i the only one on the couch?
Jun 19 22:39:25 <CalebLangeslag>        Then do the vote. :P
Jun 19 22:39:27 <Bluestreak_>        at 9 you just dont want to be vertical anymore
Jun 19 22:39:31 <Bluestreak_>        aye
Jun 19 22:39:34 <OyajiVyse>        and here I am, behinda desk
Jun 19 22:39:36 <stubuntu>        aye
Jun 19 22:39:38 <Bluestreak_>        lol
Jun 19 22:39:39 <OyajiVyse>        *behind a even
Jun 19 22:39:47 <narrenburg>        I love holding people back, but aye.
Jun 19 22:39:47 <CalebLangeslag>        kusanagi has to start it though
Jun 19 22:39:50 <Bluestreak_>        Woman in the bed man at the desk LOL
Jun 19 22:40:00 <CalebLangeslag>        before people vote preliminarily
Jun 19 22:41:00 <kusanagi>        go figure
Jun 19 22:41:13 <CalebLangeslag>        Ask for all those in favor, already. xP
Jun 19 22:41:15 <kusanagi>        any other business to attend to?
Jun 19 22:41:30 <kusanagi>        You know what, just because you asked, CalebLangeslag, no.
Jun 19 22:41:31 <kusanagi>        lol
Jun 19 22:41:46 <kusanagi>        Going once...
Jun 19 22:41:48 *        CalebLangeslag rolls up the newspaper, for swatting
Jun 19 22:41:55 <kusanagi>        That is MINE.
Jun 19 22:41:59 <kusanagi>        Going twice
Jun 19 22:42:02 <kusanagi>        Ok, 
Jun 19 22:42:12 <kusanagi>        Motion is requred to close meeting
Jun 19 22:42:26 <stubuntu>        I move that we close the meeting
Jun 19 22:42:40 <Bluestreak_>        2nd
Jun 19 22:42:56 <kusanagi>        Close meeting and resume at the next PNC meeting, which will be in 1 week's time
Jun 19 22:43:09 <stubuntu>        cool beans
Jun 19 22:43:30 <kusanagi>        i'd have that as a modification, stubuntu 
Jun 19 22:43:41 <stubuntu>        okay
Jun 19 22:44:19 <kusanagi>        i assume you accept it
Jun 19 22:44:23 <stubuntu>        yes
Jun 19 22:44:26 <kusanagi>        all in favor?
Jun 19 22:44:29 <stubuntu>        aye
Jun 19 22:45:16 <OyajiVyse>        aye
Jun 19 22:45:56 <kusanagi>        Bluestreak_, narrenburg 
Jun 19 22:46:29 <narrenburg>        Aye.
Jun 19 22:47:02 <kusanagi>        going once..
Jun 19 22:47:11 <kusanagi>        going twice
Jun 19 22:47:13 <kusanagi>        and called
Jun 19 22:47:18 <kusanagi>        3 for, 1 abds
Jun 19 22:47:18 <Bluestreak_>        aye
Jun 19 22:47:20 <kusanagi>        lo
Jun 19 22:47:21 <narrenburg>        LOL
Jun 19 22:47:22 <Bluestreak_>        lol
Jun 19 22:47:24 <narrenburg>        Just too late.
Jun 19 22:47:25 <kusanagi>        ooof course.
Jun 19 22:47:25 <Bluestreak_>        zzzzz
Jun 19 22:47:34 <kusanagi>        ahave a good night, see you net week