PNC 07/17/2022

Agenda

Reports

IT

• Created support.uspirates.org with Drupal and CiviCRM.
  • It is able to send mail.
  • Documented how to update.
  • Importing supporters from old db
  • Working on SMS
• Created a spreadsheet to review different payment providers. Plan to pick one at our meeting this week.

Discussion

Old Business

• Bylaws change proposal (IL)
  • Any references to IRC in Article VI, Section 5 (sans 6.5.2) be changed to “Open Source Program”. The changes would see the following:

Section 5: Meetings to be held by IRC (via open source program)

1. Notwithstanding rules contained in RONR, meetings held by USPP may be conducted via Internet Relay Chat (IRC), on a publicly accessible server. an open source application, server or program.

2. When a meeting is to be conducted via IRC, it is required that: the location of the server (whether by its domain name, or by Internet Protocol address), and the IRC channel, be noted in the meeting call.

New Business

• KY: discussion on how to hold combined open video/chat meetings, possibility of using telegram
• chair: discussion - what elements of platform should be adopted by the Democratic Freedom Caucus?

Attending

• Mitch Davilo, Chicagoland/ILPP, Swarmcare Manager
• Rose Klein, CA
• Drew Bingaman PA Captain
• Mariah-Lynne, Kentucky Pirate Party, Secretary
• Ethan Osborne KY Captain
• Maya, INPP

Non-Voting

• David C Hall, Florida
• Anthony Jay, PNC chair

Summary

Meeting called to order at 9:06pm EDT.

Old Business

• Bylaws change proposal amended.
  • New version: moved by IL: to delete Article VI Section 5 of the bylaws, and to modify section 1.2 such that it shall read: "The PNC shall use the most effective and most inclusive collaboration tools available to meet and vote on decisions, such as Jitsi or IRC”
    • motion passes unanimously

New Business

• KY: discussion on how to hold combined open video/chat meetings, possibility of using telegram
  • suggested use of telegram for streaming video meetings with text chat
  • discussion closed without a motion

Meeting adjourned at 10:08pm EDT.

Minutes

Record of the meeting

<Wodensday> Calling this meeting to order at 9:06 EDT
<Wodensday> IDs?
<pmchi> Mitch Davilo, Chicagoland/ILPP, Swarmcare Manager
<Wodensday> Anthony Jay, PNC chair, sleepy
<NomadOfNorad> David C Hall, Florida
<yari> Rose Klein, CA
<DreadPirateDrew> Drew Bingaman PA Captain
<Mariah-Lynne> Mariah-Lynne, Kentucky Pirate Party, Secretary
<Wodensday> Oz?
<Oz> Ethan Osborne KY Captain 
<Wodensday> There we go
<Wodensday> Let me get everyone the agenda
<Wodensday> https://wiki.uspirates.org/w/index.php?title=PNC_07/17/2022
<papegaai> Title: PNC 07/17/2022 - United States Pirate Party (at wiki.uspirates.org)
<Wodensday> Going to kick off with some reports from our very cool board. I feel like starting with officers.
<Wodensday> Yari - Secretary?
<yari> Nothing to report.
<Wodensday> Thank you for all that you do. Pmchi - swarmcare
<pmchi> New Jersey seems to be in positive motion towards formation. Otherwise nothing else to report
<Wodensday> Thank you as well. Do we have any other officers? I don’t believe so
<Wodensday> Well, me
<Wodensday> My report is on the agenda
<Wodensday> Moving on to committees. Pmchi, how’s platform?
<pmchi> We, unfortunately due to the Discord… discord, we didn’t have a meeting Monday. We’re having a VC meeting tomorrow, which if all goes well, we will have reports for PNC and perhaps recommendations from the committee
18:12:43 Matt has joined
<Wodensday> Welcome Matt! Please ID if you wish to participate
<Wodensday> Thanks for catching us up to speed! Yari - I let you do outreach once again
18:13:35 Matt has quit
<pmchi> Nice
<yari> Outreach has been working on literature production, and it's going fairly well! I will just say what I said last week, which is that if people want to help out, they should show up to the meeting on Tuesday evening - I think we have an exciting thing going!
<Wodensday> Thank you Yari! I really dig it, I’m hoping we can maybe both hand the committee to some plucky new whippersnapper sometime soon too
18:15:59 Jester has joined
<Wodensday> Welcome Jester!
<Jester> Aloha Everyone.
<Jester> Maya, INPP
<Wodensday> The IT report is in the agenda. I will post it again and give everyone some time to read it https://wiki.uspirates.org/w/index.php?title=PNC_07/17/2022
<papegaai> Title: PNC 07/17/2022 - United States Pirate Party (at wiki.uspirates.org)
<Jester> that work for ID senor?
<Wodensday> You’ve given your last name before so I don’t have an issue
<Wodensday> We know you’re real
<Jester> señor*
<Wodensday> I also VC with you at least once a month
<Jester> ok, thank you!
<Oz> I have a format i figured out for word documents for pamphlets for literature production i can share 
<Wodensday> Everyone please let me know when you’re finished with the reports, and if you have anything else to add.
<Wodensday> Oz, awesome, you should get that to the outreach committee
<yari> yeah I would love to have that format
<Wodensday> Any further discussion? I am assuming this can be closed
<Oz> Weekly report needed?
<Wodensday> States aren’t required to, do you have anything to add?
<Oz> I attended a medical cannabis legalization town hall meeting, and gave a speech at ST John's Unitarian Universalist Church, both were recorded and will be posted to the site, and have been training and conditioning for upcoming wildfire season deployment 
<Wodensday> Nice! Dang, that’s a good update
<Wodensday> Anything else?
<Wodensday> I will be taking that as a no. Moving on.
18:22:15 Oz has quit
<yari> *thumbs up*
18:23:02 Oz has joined
<Wodensday> IL has proposed a bylaws change available in the agenda. The intended effect of this change is so that IRC is not a potential requirement or the main option for meetings.
<yari> I have a point of discussion I would like to bring up around it
<Wodensday> There is some ambiguity as to whether or not IRC is required, this gets rid of the headache and allows us to do whatever we want. Do I understand this correctly? IL
<Wodensday> Oh, sorry - You will go after if IL adds anything
<yari> of course!
<Wodensday> Pmchi
<Wodensday> Not hearing anything from IL, I’ll allow Yari to go.
<pmchi> No no i have nothing to add. I sent Yari the proposal for a bylaws change if you’d like me to post it here for discussion
<Wodensday> It’s in the agenda notes
<yari> I only want to point out that open source is not always the same as good.
<Wodensday> Would you suggest open source also be struck?
<Jester> I don't see how there is ambiguity as to whether or not IRC is required, but that's just a me thing. Personally I think the change is fine. I think it should be either open source, or good. And both would be fantastic
<NomadOfNorad> Maybe make it "predominantly open source..."?
<Oz> I propose using myspace 🤣
<NomadOfNorad> or "ideally open-source when available"?
<Jester> The way I read the bylaw was that IRC was our preference for text based official meetings
<Jester> I would support one of those from Nomad
<Wodensday> Jester - the issue is how the word “may” is sort of a weasel word that can be interpreted as either.
<yari> I will point out that https://wiki.uspirates.org/w/index.php?title=Pirate_National_Committee_(PNC)/Bylaws#Section_1:_PNC_Meeting
<Jester> That is true, I guess now that I'm thinking about it I can see why
<yari> has the language "The PNC shall use the most effective and most inclusive collaboration tools available to meet and vote on decisions."
<Wodensday> And I do think the main interpretation is that IRC is the standard.
<Wodensday> Yari - that almost makes it sound like this entire section could be scrapped without consequence
<yari> so anything that we change or add in section 5 is building on that
<yari> and wodensday - yes
<NomadOfNorad> IRC does have the advantage that it's easier to keep transcripts of the entire chat.
<yari> I think the point that everyone here is making is the same as the one made by "most effective and inclusive collaboration tools"
<Wodensday> I believe the core of this, for everyone not up to date, is that the PNC doesn’t want to be shackled by the idea that IRC is the one thing we do.
<pmchi> Though I do have the question of Section 5. Does that not indicate, in its current state, that our meetings are to be held via IRC?
<pmchi> Seeing as half are now on Jitsi, this would just be a correction in bylaws to reflect our current practices
<yari> pmchi - we are currently operating under the 'may' of that section
<yari> if I recall correctly
<Wodensday> We may also be operating under an extended temporary arrangement.
<Wodensday> But this is why it’s brought up.
<yari> and yes, agreed that the proposed bylaws change would adequately resolve our current predicament
<Wodensday> I may suggest that we discuss how to best end the ambiguity and allow for more non-IRC meetings in the future
<Jester> While personally I would like for the bylaw to have at least say "ideally open-source when possible" but otherwise I'm fine with a change to removing the requirement for IRC
<Wodensday> That seems to be the consensus
<yari> I suppose I'd like to counter-propose the possibility of removing section 5
<Wodensday> Is that a motion?
<yari> if it's in order, yes.
<pmchi> I’d like to second the proposal
<Wodensday> I don’t know whether or not it is in order, so I’ll just let Pmchi decide if IL accepts it.
<Jester> I'll second
<Wodensday> Okay, that works
<Wodensday> We are entering discussion and debate on a motion to remove Article VI, Section 5 of the bylaws
<Wodensday> Section 5: Meetings to be held by IRC
<Wodensday> Notwithstanding rules contained in RONR, meetings held by USPP may be conducted via Internet Relay Chat (IRC), on a publicly accessible server.
<Wodensday> When a meeting is to be conducted via IRC, it is required that: the location of the server (whether by its domain name, or by Internet Protocol address), and the IRC channel, be noted in the meeting call.
<Wodensday> Pmchi, Jester, Yari, Oz, DreadPirateDrew
<pmchi> If I might make one slight amendment to tie things up
<yari> I like amendments
18:38:04 Oz has quit
<Jester> I feel like section 5 can for now be removed. Though I would at some point think it be apt to put a new version of section 5 that just says ideally what meeting platforms we would recommend using, so more of a soft regulation of sorts that was adaptable to the situation.
18:38:12 Oz has joined
<pmchi> In addition to removing Section 5, I’d also like to suggest adding the wording “…such as Jitsi or IRC) to the end of Section 1.2
<pmchi> I would simply feel more comfortable to have Jitsi and IRC tied to the bylaws, but this isn’t a deal breaker for me
<pmchi> Nor will this amendment tie up my vote. This is just a talking point I wished to address
<yari> Jester, I disagree. current meeting platforms are constantly changing. I think it is stronger to hold ourselves to a standard as opposed to holding ourselves to a platform that might change due to commercialization
<Jester> I agree with pmchi, by acknowledging IRC chat/Jitsi we would also be able to acknowledge our position as sort of "the party of the internet"
<Wodensday> Pmchi - can you word this in the form of a motion to amend?
<Jester> Yari, I entirely agree.
<pmchi> It also doesn’t necessarily command us to the programs, but instead earmarks them as okayed and the preference
<pmchi> Wodensday of course, one moment
<Jester> that is what I was meaning with what I said
<pmchi> I’d like to motion the following amendments to Article 5 of the bylaws: Section 1.2 shall be amended to read “The PNC shall use the most effective and most inclusive collaboration tools available to meet and vote on decisions, such as Jitsi or IRC.” // Section 5 shall be removed in it’s entirety
<Wodensday> Yari - do you accept the amendment?
<yari> accepted
<yari> I think that makes sense
<DreadPirateDrew> How do we quantify inclusive and effective?  Maybe we need to come up with more specific requirements?
<Wodensday> Amendment made
<yari> Drew, I think having them unspecified is part of the point
<yari> it allows for debate to happen
<Jester> I agree, that's good
<yari> But I also think we could workshop and find some more useful terms
<DreadPirateDrew> OK In 1.2 that's fine
<DreadPirateDrew> Do we have a policy manual?
<Wodensday> I don’t believe so.
<Wodensday> Also, I do want to be conscious of the time we have remaining.
<DreadPirateDrew> Policy manual would be where you put the explicit details of things like this.  The bylaws are vague, the policy manual is explicit.
<Wodensday> That may be a good idea for the future.
<yari> I don't have any further discussion
<Wodensday> Do we wish to vote?
<NomadOfNorad> so, the bylaws are more of an in-a-nutshell quick-install-guide pamphlet, and the policy manual is the full on product-manual?
<DreadPirateDrew> The bylaws are a higher level, so that if it says "open source" or whatever, the Policy manual spells out how it is currently done.  In this case Jitsi and IRC
<yari> vote
<Wodensday> That is a motion to call the vote, is there a second?
<DreadPirateDrew> second
<yari> vote to call the vote lol /jk
<Wodensday> All in favor of deleting Article VI Section 5 of the bylaws, and section 1.2 shall be and ex do read …and vote on decisions, such as Jitsi or IRC”
<Wodensday> Amended to read “…
<DreadPirateDrew> aye
<yari> aye
<Oz> Aye 
<Jester> aye
<Wodensday> Pmchi
<pmchi> Aye
<Wodensday> Motion passes.
<Wodensday> Next is an item of new business in a similar vein. KY proposes “discussion on how to hold combined open video/chat meetings, possibility of using telegram“
<Mariah-Lynne> I wrote something and had sent it to Yari this week if you want me to post it here.
<Wodensday> Sure!
<yari> I was going to suggest that, please do
<Mariah-Lynne> A possible solution where to hold PNC meetings that can be both video streaming and text chat. Telegram channels do stream video live, and it offers for others to stay in text chat if they prefer instead. Telegram doesn't allow archiving of their streams yet. Telegram can serve as a combined alternative for both streaming and IRC. Lurkers can also lurk without having to join the public Telegram channel.
<Mariah-Lynne> Video gets more done during meetings because half the time on IRC is spent writing it all out. IRC connections for many also drops a lot. A combined text chat will bring in the lurkers that can lead to future members joining too. Jitsi and all the alternatives do have text chats already if you opened all PNC meetings to anyone gets the Jitsi link to join. I don't know what the character limit the Jitsi text chat has, unlike Telegram you can type 
<Jester> I would recommend we be a bit cautious with Telegram because of its recent use by the January 6th insurrectionists and various alt-right militia groups
<Mariah-Lynne> I don't know if the text chat on Jitsi copies the name of the person chatting and timestamp. I've been looking into communication tools for KYPP and have been testing out Telegram. Copying text from Telegram (desktop) shows name, timestamp, and spaces itself nicely in between new comments. 
<Jester> But I also do understand that considering the current state of things it may be beneficial to have a telegram for the party
<Mariah-Lynne> If you do use Telegram, change your PC's timezone once a week during meetings so the timezone when copied appears as eastern time instead of Yari's time California or whoever is streaming that week.
<Mariah-Lynne> Just make sure when/if using video/text for future meetings, save the text chats for the minutes before logging off.
<Mariah-Lynne> Last week's PNC meeting mentioned an alternative to hosting video on Youtube. Internet Archive is an alternative.
<Mariah-Lynne> Sorry it was long.
<Wodensday> No worries, let’s break this up a bit.
<Wodensday> How do we feel about this telegram proposal in general?
<DreadPirateDrew> Can we stream to youtube like we do with Jitsi?
<Jester> Well you can already see my take on it
<Wodensday> I do not know that Drew. Mariah-Lynne?
<Mariah-Lynne> I think any video platform can stream to youtube. If that's what you mean?
<yari> Drew - streaming to youtube from telegram requires OBS
<pmchi> For what it is worth: I did already create a USPP telegram channel back when we were making official channels for ourselves. We don’t have much but it’s a starting point
<yari> you have to go through a separate streaming setup, so it requires an on-hands tech person
<Wodensday> I will also add that I’d like for it to have some good moderation functionality. This would only work if we can still filter through who should speak and when
<yari> Telegram allows moderators to choose who gets to join the livestream from the text chat
<Wodensday> Good to know. Any further thoughts,
<Wodensday> Tech person is indeed a concern, ideally we shouldn’t have it be too intensive
<yari> I do also want to echo Jester's point and bring up the potential security issues with Telegram. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/03/telegram-harm-reduction-users-russia-and-ukraine
<papegaai> Title: Telegram Harm Reduction for Users in Russia and Ukraine | Electronic Frontier Foundation (at www.eff.org)
<yari> It's not enough of a problem to disqualify it, I think - but something worth noting
<Wodensday> Does anyone have any motions for this topic?
<Jester> We also do have the issue of the groups of people who use Telegram in the US in the news recently having been the insurrectionists and most recently the patriot front
<yari> So long as we are actively searching for a platform that more effectively fits the definitions found in our bylaws, I have no motions. I just care that we are having discussions around this.
<Jester> I'm not saying it's disqualifying again, but I'm more saying we must think about how people who are being introduced to us, who haven't heard of Telegram outside of the patriot front using it
<Mariah-Lynne> Here's the founder of Telegram addressing concerns about security about Ukraine. His family is Ukrainian. https://t.me/durov/179
<papegaai> Title: Telegram: Contact @durov (at t.me)
<yari> I don't think our current setup is the ideal for our group, but it's not bad.
<Wodensday> I believe this was proposed to fix the issues with going full Jitsi. That being said, what we just did allows us a massive playground to work with, so I don’t know if we need to.
<Wodensday> Essentially everything is up to our discretion now.
<yari> Mariah-Lynne - I am aware of his reassurances, and the article I linked mentioned those as well. The issue is not the word of a CEO. the issue is that they could be forced to hand over user data as a company
19:07:15 Miles_PPAU has joined
<Wodensday> Welcome Miles_PPAU!
<Wodensday> Any further discussion or comment?
<yari> motion to adjourn
<Wodensday> Also, we Are over Time.
<Wodensday> Motion to adjourn.
<pmchi> Second
<Jester> seconded
<Wodensday> All in favor?
<Miles_PPAU> hi folks
<pmchi> Aye
<Jester> aye
<DreadPirateDrew> Aye
<yari> aye
<pmchi> Hello Miles my friend!
<Oz> Aye 
<Wodensday> Oz
<yari> hello Miles!
<Wodensday> Meeting adjourned at 10:08 EDT