PNC 06/30/2024

The June 30th, 2024 PNC Meeting was one of the weekly meetings of the Pirate National Committee (PNC). This meeting took place on IRC.

Meeting Minutes

21:02:36 <DreadPirateDrew> OK we will start off with ID's Drew Bingaman, Captain USPP
<mavsben> Ben Horlick, USPP Quartermaster & TX Rep
<kusanagi__> Liz Gorski, NY, observer
<Wanda_FL> Wanda Ward, FL Rep
<Eli> Eli McGee, pr director and massachusetts rep
<DreadPirateDrew> Mitch did you join us @pmchi
<NomadOfNorad> David Hall, one of the outreach people for Florida PP.
<kusanagi__> NomadOfNorad, any relation to Brad?
<NomadOfNorad> Not that I'm aware of
<kusanagi__> Ah, ok
yari has joined
<yari> ahoy!
<Wanda_FL> ahoy Yari! we're doing IDs rn
<DreadPirateDrew> Ahoy Yari! We are in the midst of ID's
<yari> Rose Klein, CA rep and State Moderator
<DreadPirateDrew> Thanks!
<mavsben> howdy yari
<yari> hey howdy
Jester has joined
<kusanagi__> howdy howdy
<Jester> Ashley Melody, INPP interim representative
<Jester> howdy all
<DreadPirateDrew> Ben is there anything to report from the treasurer's desk?
sopphey has joined
<sopphey> sorry i'm late
<Wanda_FL> you couldve been later
<mavsben> No real updates this week. Since the deadline for the first report isn't for a couple weeks, Im sequencing that behind some other life stuff
<DreadPirateDrew> Awesome, Thanks Ben.
<DreadPirateDrew> Any other updates or reports? Just go
<mavsben> Yari i pinged you on discord to get access to the donor info from the website, whenever you get a chance to get around to that let me know please
<sopphey> ID: Sarai "Sopphey Vance" Oviedo, TX, Swarmcare Manager
<pmchi> Jolly Mitch Davilo, Chicagoland/ILPP
<sopphey> anyone from vs team here?
<yari> mavsben I saw that, will work on it after pnc
<mavsben> Awesome thanks!
<DreadPirateDrew> I don't think anyone from team supreme is here
<mavsben> general question - do y'all think there would be interest in a book club? could be fun
<mavsben> dunno if there'd be a critical mass though
<kusanagi__> mavsben, that would be fine for like, a social meeting
<sopphey> OK. Update about team supreme. We're working on a proposal to send newsletters with pirate things and Supreme updates/styles. We're looking for volunteers.
<Jester> I'd be down for a book club
<Wanda_FL> I think that's something some people would be interested
<Jester> I'm currently reading "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn, amazing read also horrifying
<mavsben> yeah, something outside of formal PNC meetings
<sopphey> Non Supreme updates: Also, the global pirate beers changed in name and concept. Having a time for a Americas chat.
<sopphey> Last update. I'm setting up regional meetings starting Jul 20 for the mid atlantic pirates!
<mavsben> cool!
<DreadPirateDrew> V will you be on the jitsi next week? I would love to have you promote those things
<sopphey> Yes I should be on Jitsi next week. We can also work on the idea to media process from Ty
<DreadPirateDrew> OK so are we ready to discus minor thing?
<sopphey> Next thing I want to ask is do we want to do a camera walk and a talk like a pirate day? Bc if so, I won't be organizing those. Just volunteering.
<sopphey> That was my last update. :)
<mavsben> what day is that again?
<kusanagi__> talk like a pirate sept 19
<kusanagi__> iirc
<sopphey> Camera walk would happen around sep 11
<mavsben> tyty
<sopphey> yes sep 19 for talk piratey day
<pmchi> Talk Like a Pirate Day is September 19th, which I will take the day off for and take the lead on organizing if V would like to simply volunteer
<pmchi> I got in contact with Marcus Rediker who is interested in participating in a Talk like a Pirate event; so I’ll finish this layup
<sopphey> We'll see Mitch. If we get more volunteers for the email blasts I'll be able to volunteer for TLAP
<pmchi> As for another camera walk, I’d love to
<DreadPirateDrew> Any other updates or discussion on these items?
<sopphey> No further comments/updates.
<mavsben> nothing on my end - ill throw something in the discord and see if I can get some interest on the book club idea
<mavsben> motion to adjourn
<DreadPirateDrew> I am not seeing a second to that motion
<kusanagi__> Adjourn the meeting?
<Jester> I'd say adjourn
<Wanda_FL> I dont think we're ready for that yet?
<DreadPirateDrew> That is a second.
<pmchi> Don’t we need to discuss new business?
<kusanagi__> I thought there was another point of discussion..
<Jester> that's fine, what is the new stuff?
<mavsben> if there's other business, go for it
<DreadPirateDrew> We can do that if Ben would like to withdraw the motion
<DreadPirateDrew> or we vote
<mavsben> yeah ill withdraw the motion
<DreadPirateDrew> OK thanks\
<DreadPirateDrew> So let's discus the issue.
<Jester> What is the issue?
<DreadPirateDrew> The question of minors and party involvement
<Jester> Ah yes, now I remember
<Jester> There's two sides I feel to this
<sopphey> What's the purpose of this discussion? To change bylaws?
<Jester> The first is my idealistic side that says minors should instead be in a much more managed young pirates program like how other parties do as they aren't really "mature" enough yet to really handle party respobsibilities.
<mavsben> Yeah, similar to v, can we get the background and question at hand?
<Jester> My second side is my realistic side that says we can't afford making such a division considering our current manpower and funding limitations. As well as the fact that we just aren't large enough to be considering this sort of thing in a practical manner.
<Wanda_FL> I agree Ben, vaguely gesturing to the issue at hand doesn't exactly cut it
<mavsben> Im just not sure what we're talking about
<Wanda_FL> exactly
<DreadPirateDrew> OK so we have a group that is working on affiliate status and at least one of the potential PNC reps would be under 18
— 4x and 4xprod have joined, 4x has quit
<4xprod> hi
<kusanagi__> Can that rep be a member of the party by law?
<4xprod> actually i should join in computer
4xprod has quit
<Jester> So that means that one of our actual PNC national members would be under 18 once this group reaches affiliate status. Are any members of this group above the age of majority?
<sopphey> One person is, the second is not.
<kusanagi__> So, for the second, does the state say who can or cannot be a member of a political party?
4x_Productions has joined
<Jester> why would this group introduce two new PNC representatives?
<NomadOfNorad> Well, I could at least picture younger kids being in a proposed Young Pirates, with ones getting closer to 18 gaining more responsibility, potentially allowing for what is going on with that one PP group
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<4x_productions> I am in New York
<kusanagi__> 4x_productions, name please
<4x_productions> Susam 
<Jester> Is this a two state group that would be joining or is this something like the Illinois/Chicagoland situation?
<pmchi> IDing should be [NAME], [STATE]
<kusanagi__> Jester, it's a state
<4x_productions> Susam, New York
<kusanagi__> particularly delaware
<mavsben> To Liz's questions - is there a legal reason why they couldn't be a rep or is this more a question of "do we want to allow minors to be able to join PNC"?
<mavsben> or serve as state reps to PNC I guess
<kusanagi__> mavsben, my questions are structured.
<kusanagi__> If this person cannot join a political party by law, then they cannot be a representative of the PNC
<mavsben> yeah
<kusanagi__> Bylaws state that the rep must be a member
<Jester> kusanagi__ is correct here I'm afraid, as much as my anarchist tendencies wanna argue ethics and whatnot
<NomadOfNorad> How are matters of teen members handled in the PP groups on the other side of the Pond?
<kusanagi__> This may change with voting age legistlation being introduced to lower the voting age.
<kusanagi__> NomadOfNorad, usually a young pirates group.
<NomadOfNorad> And yeah, there is that
<Wanda_FL> How does one even define a member with a party like this though?
<kusanagi__> even with the voting age being lowered potentially, I don't feel comfortable wiuth anyone under 18 as a PNC rep.
<NomadOfNorad> Anyway, a US Young Pirates group sounds fine by me, we'd just need to sit down and work out what the standards are for those in it
<kusanagi__> NomadOfNorad, we have one.
<NomadOfNorad> ah
<Wanda_FL> well we have one but it isnt exactly active
<Jester> I agree here, having someone that young on the PNC wouldn't be kosher with other political parties in the USA or kosher with the government.
<kusanagi__> Wanda_FL, a member would be defined as someone who works in the party and generally has the ability to register to vote and is of age of majority.
<Wanda_FL> is it defined that way in the bylaws?
<kusanagi__> I'm saying generally because there are some other things here that I don't know, and I ain't got time to be doing all the research.
<sopphey> Honestly, we need to protect minors. Being on the PNC means you are a public individual. Even being a chair of a committee leads to the public eye.
<kusanagi__> Wanda_FL, yes
<kusanagi__> 100% need to protect them
<Wanda_FL> Alright then
<sopphey> Bringing in the cause of "has to be able to register to vote" troubles me for a different conversation.
<DreadPirateDrew> My suggestion would be to Amend bylaws Article 4 section 2 under number 1 to add "18 years of age or older" 
<sopphey> *clause
<kusanagi__> We have already had issues with a particular individual attacking minors who were involbved with us as well, and that's the last thing that they should be exposed to.
<kusanagi__> sopphey, yeah, that's why i'm saying generally
<kusanagi__> in all the research i've done this week playing the not study or write thesis game, that seems to be the factor
<NomadOfNorad> Or maybe phrase the clause to something like "18 years or older, unless their distrist has set a lower voting age."
<Jester> I would agree with Drew here, it seems like amending the bylaws in that way would be the best way to handle this
<kusanagi__> NomadOfNorad, even then, anyone under 18 should not be a PNC rep.
<mavsben> Are there specific laws forbidding that or do they just define party membership based on voting?
<kusanagi__> mavsben, that's the thing, it seems like in everything I've read (not just NY) you join a party as a part of the process to register to vote.
<sopphey> Seems to be state by state. There are multiple reasons why an individual cannot register to vote.
<mavsben> I know it's the latter in Texas. its not a rule but the state determines which party you belong to based on which primary you vote in so its a secondary requirement
<mavsben> You can register to a party when you register to vote, but voting is an automatic determination
<Eli> Are non-voting reps allowed? If so we could allow prople under 18 to be non-voting reps until they're over 18 where they become voting representatives 
<kusanagi__> Eli, not really
<sopphey> non-voting reps still need to ID
<mavsben> But point being, I'd say I'd prefer to keep PNC membership 18+ out of the general interest of protecting minors independently of what the laws are
<sopphey> I am not comfortable with that, though it's been done before.
<pmchi> My views generally reflect Liz's concerns and I agree with her assessment. Likewise, I think simply the age clause Drew suggested would suffice. We DO need to protect minors. It is a dangerous game and it’s honestly no game at all. Young Pirates should also be codified (if it’s not already). They should be able to meet amongst themselves and, from 18-25, you’ll be able to be apart of both and can be the Young Pirate liaison anyways
<4x_productions> yeah age of majority makes sense to select as the baseline
<Jester> Remember just because we have ideals doesn't mean we can always follow them. We have to show some measure of protecting children considering the current political situation
<kusanagi__> It's not even the situation
<mavsben> and like Mitch is saying, we're not precluding them from any involvement at all
<DreadPirateDrew> This change should be the least divisive. as I have seen nothing in my research that should preclude minors in any of our standard activities
<4x_productions> its far too easy for a youth to fully not understand the ideals of what they preach as well considering they're just exploring the world and the politics that shape the world 
<pmchi> I think protecting children is a tried and true Pirate ideal. I've read enough Pirate literature to know children on the ships weren’t expected to do adult jobs and work and were kept out of danger as best as possible
<kusanagi__> We have had several members targeted, too. And as a parent, if ANYONE did to my kid what that individual did to others? And it was because of a group they were doing work with? yeah no, hellfire.
<Jester> I agree with pmchi and drew here, we can just amend the bylaws to include 18 years or older
<kusanagi__> My kid is very close in age to the person who brought this issue up. The mere idea of it sets me aflame.
<DreadPirateDrew> Would someone like to make a motion?
<kusanagi__> I'd love to see Young Pirates as a good home for younger people
<pmchi> Before I make some motions, can I get a checker to see if we have, in fact, codified Young Pirates USA?
<4x_productions> and because youth will not follow the ideals fully as they don't know much better, they may end up contradicting unintentionally as well not being well read in politics generally makes you not understand the grand scope of the game at play
<yari> pmchi we have not in the bylaws
<yari> but it was a motion of the PNC in the past that is codified that way
<mavsben> I would like to motion to add a clause 4 to Article III Section 1 of the Bylaws stating "All delegates, Representatives, and Observers appointed by the respective State Pirate Parties must be at least 18 years of age as of the appointment date."
<Eli> Seconded
<Jester> secoonded
<DreadPirateDrew> discussion?
<Wanda_FL> to clarify, would that still allow minor observers unsanctioned by the state parties to attend?
<yari> yes. observer status is an official designation
<mavsben> I think this is the cleanest way to do it
<mavsben> yeah you can still "observe" the meeting without being an official "Observer"
<yari> ^
<Wanda_FL> ok
<Jester> yes
<sopphey> Will they have to ID
<4x_productions> neat
<kusanagi__> observer is the state party
<DreadPirateDrew> Keep in mind the section I referenced is for the rest of the board
<sopphey> The board?
<kusanagi__> Can we also change Art III, Sec 2 ?
<kusanagi__> That would be the part that also needs to specify
<kusanagi__> Point 3 currently reads "Appoint one Primary Representative and at least one Alternate Representative, both of whom must be active members of the state’s Pirate Party."
<kusanagi__> If possible, can we cahnge that to read "Appoint one Primary Representative and at least one Alternate Representative, both of whom must be active members of the state’s Pirate Party and at least 18 years of age as of appointment date."
<pmchi> Motion to add the wording to Article III, Sec. 2.3 "and must be at least 18 years of age"
<DreadPirateDrew> lets stay on this specifically as it was seconded 
<mavsben> That would be covered - that representative must be 18+ by section 1
<Jester> So we can amend all lines regarding pirate party officials or representatives to be 18 or older
<sopphey> no discussion to the motion as posed by TX
<mavsben> and drew - officers only become an issue if someone is elected, not the issue we're dealing with right now but we'd have to change that too
<Wanda_FL> yeah, I believe adding that would be redundant if this goes through
<DreadPirateDrew> That's true.
<kusanagi__> Redundancy is fine in legal dox, which this is
<pmchi> ^
<kusanagi__> in fact, it's prefered
<Jester> having redudancy is good in case someone starts saying "well what did the people who wrote this mean actually"
<Jester> like the debate over the 2nd amendment
<kusanagi__> exactly
<kusanagi__> the more you can explicitly say things, i've found, the better
<kusanagi__> because there will be armchair lawyers who will debate things like this
<Jester> Now the debate on the constitution is a whole other story, but the more deliberate we are now the better
<DreadPirateDrew> am I calling the question on this first amendment?
<yari> call it
<DreadPirateDrew> The question has been called. Please vote 
<mavsben> Aye
<yari> aye
<Eli> Aye
<pmchi> Aye
<Jester> aye
<Wanda_FL> aye
<DreadPirateDrew> that's everyone right? I think it passed
<mavsben> do we want to handle the officer question now too? I think that's an Article IV Section 2 Clause 1 addition of a subclause 3 saying 18+
<Jester> nah couldn't have *sarcasm*
<sopphey> So do we need a second motion for Article III: Section 2, #3
<DreadPirateDrew> I await motions
<Jester> I'd say we settle all accounts regarding the age issue now and make the rulings on this
<pmchi> We need a second
<Jester> seconded
<DreadPirateDrew> Official proposed wording Ben?
<mavsben> Ok yeah - motion to add a subclause 3 to clause 1 of Section 2 "Eligibility" stating that the a candidate must be at least 18 years of age as of the date of the election."
<Jester> We need the full statement as amended ben
<mavsben> As amended:
<mavsben> ah that's hard to do in irc
<kusanagi__> it's copy and paste if you're on a full client :)
* kusanagi__ nerds out
<mavsben> im on my laptop at the bar, sue me xD
<kusanagi__> :P
* sopphey sues
<Wanda_FL> lol
<NomadOfNorad> So, editting the bylaws while munching on beer-nuts? :)
<mavsben> Section 2: Eligibility To be eligible to hold one of the positions set forth in Art. IV §1, a candidate must: be an active member of their State Pirate Party, or actively involved in Pirate politics if no state party exists; attend at least one meeting prior to any vote to appoint them where PNC members can interview them. Meeting may be by video, IRC, or other shared electronic media, but potentia
<mavsben> frick
<kusanagi__> you just need point 3
<DreadPirateDrew> I don't think it's gonna go in any formatting
<Jester> > how fresh is this kid
<kusanagi__> mavsben, would "Appoint one Primary Representative and at least one Alternate Representative, both of whom must be active members of the state’s Pirate Party and at least 18 years of age as of appointment date." be acceptable to you/
<mavsben> potential candidates must be able to answer questions asked by PNC members in the forum; and Be at least 18 years of age as of the date of the election
<mavsben> that's a third item
<NomadOfNorad> works for me.
<mavsben> this is about the officers rn
<kusanagi__> oh
<kusanagi__> don't mind me, going back under my desk now
<4x_productions> so do they need to ID?
<Jester> that should work
<DreadPirateDrew> Are we clear as mud now?
<mavsben> I think the initial appointment of reps is covered by the first amendment but if y'all want to restate it for the avoidance of doubt I have no problem with that though
<kusanagi__> 4x_productions, yes
<4x_productions> ok
<4x_productions> can i censor my address on the id tho
<mavsben> its just state if you're comfortable with that
<Wanda_FL> that isnt the kind of ID they meant I dont think
<pmchi> You don’t need to give your full address when you ID
<mavsben> we just mean identifying yourself, not showing your ID
<4x_productions> my id has my full address on it
<kusanagi__> 4x_productions, i can go over that with you later, but you don't need your ID card
<4x_productions> oh
<DreadPirateDrew> We're not scanning government issued ID
<Wanda_FL> they meant like identify who you are, not show your photo ID 4x
<4x_productions> ohhh okay
<pmchi> You only need to state your name and state for the record
<mavsben> im not tryna put my address on stream either don't worry hahaha
<Wanda_FL> yeah, nobody here wants to be that unsecure
<DreadPirateDrew> OK so back to business, are we ready to vote?
<NomadOfNorad> Yeah, identifying for these meetings just needs something like "I'm Denny, in Texas" or whatever. (Or would it just need to be "Texas"?)
<DreadPirateDrew> Calling the question?
<mavsben> I forget if the person who submitted the motion can call the vote
<mavsben> (I think you can just run the vote)
<DreadPirateDrew> OK calling the question, please vote now
<Jester> aye
<yari> aye
<mavsben> aye
<pmchi> Aye
<Wanda_FL> aye
<Eli> Aye
<NomadOfNorad> aye
<4x_productions> aye
<sopphey> 6 out of 6 is a winner
<Wanda_FL> that's two more ayes than we should have
<mavsben> Ok so with those two, we've said minors cannot serve as state delegates in any capacity and minors cannot be elected to PNC officer positions
<DreadPirateDrew> That was my take
<mavsben> the remaining question is do we think a third amendment to cover the initial appointment as well?
<pmchi> Better safe than sorry
<mavsben> I think that's redundant but if people want it, I don't think there's a reason not to
<pmchi> To echo kusanagi__ earlier: redundancy is good in a legal doc, preferred even
<Jester> agreed let's do it
<4x_productions> well again the more you explain the harder to misintrepret
<4x_productions> so redudancy isnt too problematic
<mavsben> yeah, Im gucci wit it
<DreadPirateDrew> would someone like to write up the amendment?
<mavsben> I'd like to submit a motion to amend subclause 3 of Section 2 State Eligibility Article III to state: "Appoint one Primary Representative and at least one Alternate Representative, both of whom must be at least 18 years of age and active members of the state's Pirate Party."
<DreadPirateDrew> Thank you Ben, is there a second?
<mavsben> liz / v - does this get to what y'all wanted?
<sopphey> It works, yes
<DreadPirateDrew> is there a second?
<Jester> seconded
<DreadPirateDrew> Can I just call the question?
<Jester> I'd say call it
<DreadPirateDrew> OK so let's vote on this amendment and also I would like someone to take ownership of getting the bylaws updated on the wiki
<Wanda_FL> if you send the exact text to me I think I can do it
<Jester> aye
<mavsben> aye
<yari> aye
<mavsben> and yeah Wanda - I can get the edits worked up into a doc
<Eli> Aye
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<DreadPirateDrew> Wanda? Mitch?
<Wanda_FL> aye :c
<DreadPirateDrew> I think we lost pmchi but I think it still maths
<Jester> yea we should be good
<Jester> any other business we should take care of?
<Wanda_FL> wait hold on
<DreadPirateDrew> yes wanda?
<mavsben> 5/8 < 2/3 unfortunately
<sopphey> We;re 6
<sopphey> It was 5/6
<Wanda_FL> ok, I guess that adds up
<Wanda_FL> for some reason I thought we had 9 PNC states instead of 7
<Jester> yea we are good
<mavsben> oh is it 9 now?
<mavsben> thought it was 8
<DreadPirateDrew> and PA's rep is not in the meeting
<Wanda_FL> its 7
<NomadOfNorad> well, Florida PP recently joined
<sopphey> oh phew
<sopphey> I didnt math correctly eithe
<DreadPirateDrew> Yes it's 7
<sopphey> ok cool
<mavsben> ohhh
<mavsben> yee
<sopphey> only 43 to go
<mavsben> ok cool
<Wanda_FL> you're forgetting the territories 
<sopphey> cool cool
4x_productions has joined
<mavsben> so we're all settled then ya?
<Jester> do we have any other business to take care of?
<mavsben> nothing from me
<Wanda_FL> oh also, I cant edit the bylaws article
<Wanda_FL> and I have a question
<DreadPirateDrew> OK Ben will get write ups to Wanda and update the wiki. Thank you
<Wanda_FL> I dont have the perms to edit it Drew
<yari> i can edit it
<yari> if someone gives me the exact phrasing
<mavsben> Ok cool, yeah ill get that to you yari
<DreadPirateDrew> Awesome.
<Wanda_FL> but my question is, do state parties need to meet to ratify the amendments? or is our rep's aye vote considered ratification by the state parties?
<sopphey> The bylaws aren't strict on that front. But, I try to get the state parties meeting anyway as a sign of life.
<mavsben> The vote of PNC is the "ratification" per se - you vote in your capacity as the representative of your state
<DreadPirateDrew> I was taking the votes as ratification
<sopphey> Oh, that one.
<Jester> We aren't at the point anyway that we can suddenly have all of our states get together to meet to decide to accept these changes if it was even how this worked
<mavsben> That's why its a vote of the state reps and not the full reps + officers group
<DreadPirateDrew> State votes only
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<Wanda_FL> well, I just know the bylaws state that state parties must ratify any amendments to the bylaws and it kinda seems like a somewhat dangerous leap to interpret state reps as the party themselves rather than representatives of the state party
<DreadPirateDrew> How do you all wish to proceed?
<mavsben> I'd say that the recall mechanism is a consideration of the state parties themselves but I hear you
<Wanda_FL> I just want to be sure the FLPP is remaining in compliance with the bylaws
<Jester> Completely agreeing with Wanda, but we have to also be concerned with practical matters in regards to how small and disjointed we are
<mavsben> Maybe we put that in the category of things to think about, but not for this meeting?
<Jester> agreed
<DreadPirateDrew> Wanda? opinion?
<Wanda_FL> well I was asking a question in the first place
<yari> motion to adjourn
<mavsben> second
<Jester> seconded
<Wanda_FL> I dont really have any opinion, I just want to make sure the FLPP remains in compliance with the bylaws
<yari> wanda, you are in compliance. no need to ratify
<Wanda_FL> Alright, thank you
<DreadPirateDrew> We'll all burn together
<sopphey> Not I
<sopphey> jk
<Jester> some of us already are
<Jester> <<<<<
<sopphey> Are we done?
<DreadPirateDrew> does anyone object to adjourning?
<Jester> not from me
<Wanda_FL> nothing here
<NomadOfNorad> I'm fine with adjourning, too
22:32:53 <DreadPirateDrew> OK. We're done. Thanks everyone, next week Jitsi