PNC 09/10/2023

The August 27th, 2023 PNC Meeting was one of the weekly meetings of the Pirate National Committee (PNC). This meeting took place on IRC.

Meeting Minutes

20:59:51 <DreadPirateDrew> We can start with ID's Drew Bingaman USPP Captain
<Ty-> Ty Clifford, WV, Captain 
<iAmV> it's not time man
<iAmV> ok now.
<Treasurer_&_MAPP_person> Joseph Onoroski, see username 
<MichaelC_Scribe> Michael Cadwallader, Scribe, NJ hopeful
<iAmV> sarai 'sopphey vance' oviedo, swarmcare manager, texas
<Woden> Anthony Jay, observing from IN
<pmchi> Mitch Davilo, captain of Chicagoland/IL
<yari> Rose Klein, CA Rep
<MichaelC_Scribe> *Scribe aka Secretary
<DreadPirateDrew> OK lets move onto Nominations for VC
<pmchi> No DMV?
<iAmV> The election committee reports that Yari, Dustin, and Ty have accepted nominations for VC
<iAmV> (i just messaged dustin)
<pmchi> (Thank you)
<DreadPirateDrew> Any other nominations
<DreadPirateDrew> OK hearing none, is everyone here for questions?
<DreadPirateDrew> The nominees that is
<iAmV> one second. one candidatte is having tech issue
Dustin has joined
<iAmV> wait. a minut.
<iAmV> do we have quorum
<Dustin> I am here, Dustin Etts, from VA
<DreadPirateDrew> We do not have a PA rep
<pmchi> Woden are you voting for IN?
<Woden> I was not planning to, but if it helps us out, yeah
<DreadPirateDrew> That should be enough right?
<pmchi> 4/5 voting members here then
<DreadPirateDrew> OK back to open up questions for candidates
<iAmV> cool
<iAmV> Ah yes, questions
<DreadPirateDrew> Crickets??
<MichaelC_Scribe> all i hear over here is rain
<yari> what is the method we're using?
<iAmV> one second please
<yari> okay thank you
<iAmV> Okay, before we start with questions. All voting members will send Michael a message with the order of the candidates you are voting for. example, candidate b, c , a
<Woden> Wait, are we voting before they answer questions?
<MichaelC_Scribe> not now of course
<iAmV> no. after questions.
<MichaelC_Scribe> just so everyone knows
<Woden> Okay, cool
<MichaelC_Scribe> i mean
<iAmV> my apologies. then michael has a spreadsheet
<iAmV> that will tally the vote.
<MichaelC_Scribe> technically speaking anyone could vote now, i think it would just be best to vote after questions haha
<MichaelC_Scribe> anyway...
<MichaelC_Scribe> questions... are candidates ready for them?
<DreadPirateDrew> And now back to candidate questions?
<Dustin> Indeed
<Ty-> Yes.
<yari> yep
<MichaelC_Scribe> Okay, FIRST question: Do you consider the Pirate Party in it's current state to be bottom-up? 
<yari> I feel its a mixture of both bottom-up and top-down. I think the disconnect between the PNC and those who are interfacing with more people is currently caused by a lack of communication and organizational structure.
<Ty-> I consider it to be bidirectional at this time. It seems suggested are discussed equally from both sides, state to national, national to state and ideas/things/agendas evolve from there. But more structure may need to be in place.
<Dustin> Partially, we have a hybrid system which allows for people to take independent action via the 3 Pirate rule. The clarity is not there for where 3 Pirate be authoritative rules apply though, a number of things are more working via convention and what seems right than rules currently.
<DreadPirateDrew> any follow up Michael?
<MichaelC_Scribe> anyone have any follow-up questions?
<MichaelC_Scribe> if not, I can move to the next question on the list I have
<iAmV> I would like to know more about the candidates approach to "structure" which i saw in two ansers
<iAmV> *answers
<iAmV> Further, what do you see the structure of the current org doing well?
<Ty-> I have that answered in question 2.
<iAmV> Lay it on us haha
<Ty-> But to talk a little on it, national needn't be focused too heavily on state agendas, as it's a national party. If a state brings up concerns to national, it should be addressed accordingly, otherwise why does a national party exist. 
<MichaelC_Scribe> Ty- question 2 on the list? If so, I can move to question 2 since it builds off of Question 1... But I'll also wait for Yari to respond. 
<Dustin> I guess it would depend on which part of the ‘structuring’ we are talking about
<Ty-> Answer to question 2: I consider only bottom-up organisational structures to be bad. Bidirectional structures are good for all parties and interested parties. However, the national party should definitely be core focused on national politics as a whole and little on state (and possibly where state raises concern to national).
<Ty-> oh, my bad.
<yari> i talk about it a bit in other answers
<MichaelC_Scribe> okay noted, then we could move onto Question 2 (or just move via sequential order for the questions) and then ask for follow-ups at the end
<Treasurer_&_MAPP_person> Lets get through the questions and ask questions at the end please. 
<Treasurer_&_MAPP_person> Or discussion at the end.
<Dustin> I would consider the relation of states to National, the relation of people to committees, the relation of non-pirates to the party, the structure of establishing and advertising stances, and the structure to develop policies, all relatively independent kinds of structures.
<MichaelC_Scribe> okay, question TWO... 
<MichaelC_Scribe> Do you consider Bottom Up Organizational structures to be good or bad? 
<MichaelC_Scribe> (and now y'all know what Ty was responding to lol)
<yari> Good, writ large - though there are contra-indicative cases, bottom-up structures are counter to the exploitative relations of global capitalism and are thus inherently revolutionary. Most of the time, this means that they function as test cases for revolutionary organization.
<DreadPirateDrew> Dustin? weighing in on this one?
<Dustin> I consider bottom-up structures to be foundational for actual democratization. It is exceedingly easy for corrupt individuals to get into any organization and conduct sabotage, for people to suppress one another either purposefully or accidentally.
<Dustin> I did not know we were writing stuff in advance, lol
<MichaelC_Scribe> All good; I think it was up to the individual. both methods to answering the questions are valid
<DreadPirateDrew> Any other questions?
<MichaelC_Scribe> Yes, sorry. Brain didn't catch up there haha
<Dustin> but yes, having minimal top structure is ideal to me, it is very easy to have things get dismantled internally. Voting systems and trainings together with tech can over time make the role of leaders in an org like this minimal
<MichaelC_Scribe> one sec
<Dustin> And keeping to open source is also critical for that, and keeping practices transparent. That way even if things are dismantled by an issue at some point, the effort to rebuild will be increasingly smaller the more we open sourced what we did
<yari> agreed
<Dustin> *all I had, being long winded
<yari> trainings are critical, Dustin absolutely has the right of it
<MichaelC_Scribe> follow-up question to question two: (If good) Would you want the Pirates to be more bottom-up, and how do you think we can approach doing that? (If bad) How would you want to see the Pirates be structured? Any plans to fix any flaws in our current structure?
<yari> I think the process of re-creating and co-creating our organizational structure is one of constant reflection and change. We will never be truly done with this task. There are steps we can take right now, though, to get much closer. I think this includes focusing on state party networking and building out our roster of mid-level volunteer roles with an actual structure that gives agency to our vounteers.
<yari> Also trainings, like Dustin said
<Ty-> I have no follow up answer for this.
<DreadPirateDrew> Dustin?
<Dustin> I would say the way we present our policies at least at the National Level, whether states would want to do something similar would be their choice. But remodeling how we present our platform to include percentages of agreement from people who state they are Pirates, also finding non-Pirate polls on issues. Then creating benchmarks for voting on issues that are on the platform and stated, so we can more clearly represent we actually have a diverse group 
<Dustin> *planks not policies
<DreadPirateDrew> Is there a question 3?
<Dustin> And also providing disclaimers to being a diverse group and not enforcing standards, but acknowledging receiving help at national level will likely correspond to how close policies align with what Pirates think because that is how a party works. Be honest and say we will only be here to help people to work on things they believe in
<MichaelC_Scribe> this is the question 3
<MichaelC_Scribe> but it was moreso a follow-up to question 2
<Ty-> Eh?
<Ty-> ok
<Ty-> Answer to question 3: No. At this time the current stucture of switching state parties to member status seems adequate and the facilitation of ideas flow evenly due to accessible communication. If this were more states involved a structural change may be needed.
<MichaelC_Scribe> i should have made that clearer, my bad
<yari> Drew there are ten questions on the list
<MichaelC_Scribe> I don't have to get to all of them, either.
<DreadPirateDrew> OK then lets move to the next one
<Dustin> We also do not need to go in order? Could just hit the ones you think may be more critical?
<MichaelC_Scribe> yeah, I think I'm going to do that.
<MichaelC_Scribe> I'll get more important ones out of the way and then jump back to any I missed if there's enough time.
<yari> would like to for sure hit 6,9,10
<MichaelC_Scribe> you read my mind like a...
<MichaelC_Scribe> uh
<MichaelC_Scribe> idk what the rest of that phrase is
<MichaelC_Scribe> but
<Treasurer_&_MAPP_person> Why not just post all questions and let you all answer as quickly as possible.
<MichaelC_Scribe> next question:
<MichaelC_Scribe> Do you have a goal for where you want the Pirate Party to go? What does that goal look like, what are some challenges you think we may face getting there, and how might we overcome them?
<MichaelC_Scribe> (question 6 on the list)
<yari> I want to change the world. I am working alongside many toward the end of global capitalism and the liberation of all oppressed peoples. I think the Pirates are a party that can help move toward that, genuinely. I don't fully know what that looks like, but I know that the ideas generated here will point in the right direction.
<Ty-> I have a long answer.... so I will wait 
<yari> Joe - the list was already posted to discord and emailed. Could probably just throw it in an etherpad and link it
<Ty-> Unless you want me to go, Dustin? I don't want to tangle messages.
<Dustin> This interface is weird to type in so I may take a bit myself, go ahead
<Ty-> A6: The USPP's goal should be filling the seats of various offices in the United States--nationally, state, county, city and any other "public" role. 
<Ty-> The issues USPP and state parties alike currenty face are:
<Ty-> The issues USPP and state parties alike currenty face are:
<Ty-> 1. Getting "Pirate" as an official party
<Ty-> 1.2 A quick touch on this particular point is pirate parties need to proactively petition residents (specifically registered voters (you can grab a copy of registered voters at your local courthouse)) in officially voting as a Pirate. 
<Ty-> 1.3 By gaining signatures from "Pirate Voter" you are also gaining members as hopefully you are signing them up in newsletter fashion to keep the train moving in future topics (campaigns, donation drives, et al.)
<Ty-> 2. Legal entity status. There are a few legal hurdles each state party faces when forming a group and handling financial contributions, whether receiving or distributing. 
<Ty-> 3. Research system to help fast-track ideas and agendas (Dustin has been working on which could be promising).
<Ty-> National should at least offer some direction to state parties on their efforts on the above.
<Ty-> Finished A6.
<MichaelC_Scribe> @Treasurer_&_MAPP_person technically they're all in the Discord right now, I'm just copying/pasting the messages here so it's a bit more structured. (question -> answers, repeat)
<Dustin> I want to fundamentally change how politics works, changing it into work that can be seen mostly as honorable. I want to design and collaborate with people to create systems that changes us from being in the phase where people of high status debate, to a system where at least in this party everyone is extremely informed and debates and learns topics just by using our systems to be able to debate at the same level or above compared to the top performers. 
<MichaelC_Scribe> is the whole of your response, Dustin?
<Dustin> Then I want to use those systems to absolutely establish systemic dominance over the existing parties, thoroughly proving how much more effective we are at representing people and getting what they want done transparently and effectively, to the point where they will have to swallow their pride and follow our example on how to do things eventually. But by then we will have our 
<Dustin> Own style and culture to compete despite them copying us, that is the end of my response
<MichaelC_Scribe> Awesome... Onto the next question (question 10 on the list): How will you manage your involvement in the daily operations of the party and life responsibilities?
<Ty-> Maintaining an "I'm accessible" policy. You may message me and I will respond when I can. Casual and sometimes intimate reviews of discussions to input my sense where possible. My involvement will also to be remain unbiased in nature, as we're operating towards the same goals, we just may have different views of getting there. 
<Ty-> and if we fail, I will fail with you. Go down with the ship, right? 
* Ty- giggles
<yari> This is an excellent question, as its something I've had difficulty with in the past. I think the most important aspect for me here is that the work I do with the USPP be something which I feel aligns directly with my sense of what needs to be done to make the world a better place. To this end, I will endeavor to be more forward about when the work here is getting in the way of my local goals or vice-versa. I know that by communicating with people both in th
<Ty-> your answer is cut off, yari
<Dustin> I will show up whenever I can, and work my normal working hours, still occasionally do stuff with friends and such and let people know if there are conflicts (likely not super often), and will be able to asynchrony handle whatever comes our way because I’m not incredibly busy and I have pretty loyal friends who are cool with what I do and supportive, balancing life and side volunteer work is not an issue for me because I surround myself with people of si
<Ty-> yours, too
<Dustin> *people of similar temperaments
<yari> thanks
<yari> I know that by communicating with people both in the party and without, I can ask for help and receive it. Asking for help is our superpower.
<Dustin> We do seem to be near when this meeting should be ending? Should we wrap up or do more questions
<MichaelC_Scribe> I've got one more important question I'd like to ask, then we can probably wrap up questions. the others aren't as important
<MichaelC_Scribe> everyone good for one more question?
<MichaelC_Scribe> Drew: your thoughts, Cap'n?
<DreadPirateDrew> Go ahead
<MichaelC_Scribe> Last question (unless anyone really has a burning desire to answer more), question 9 on the list: What part of the role of Vice Chair that you are looking forward to?
<yari> Working more closely with so many amazing people, especially in terms of the responsibilities to the committees! I would love to work more closely with the various committees and get a better feel for what they are doing.
<Treasurer_&_MAPP_person> I have an additional question, if I may?
<DreadPirateDrew> Go ahead Joe other questions are allowed
<MichaelC_Scribe> sure thing, joe!
<Ty-> A10: Assisting in moving USPP forward on the national level, including assisting in bringing states onboard where possible. Promoting Pirate values and keep the spirits high while maintaining a level of practicality. 
<Treasurer_&_MAPP_person> What is the most important qualities for our future leaders to possess?
<MichaelC_Scribe> let's wait for the other answers first, though
<MichaelC_Scribe> before we get to your quesiton Joe
<Treasurer_&_MAPP_person> Ok
<MichaelC_Scribe> Also Ty, this is question 9
<Ty-> oh, my bad, I meant 9
<MichaelC_Scribe> cool, as long as the response was for 9 lol
<Dustin> There is no particular part of the vice chair position I look forward to most I suppose, I like jumping around and doing stuff on whatever seems most critical or helpful at a particular time, to help people, that is about it
<Ty-> Joe's question: Patience, reasoning, compassion, but the ability to remain firm in the position what is realistic and what is not. 
<MichaelC_Scribe> okie, time for joe's question!
<MichaelC_Scribe> thanks for behind ahead of me Ty and on top of things lol
<MichaelC_Scribe> being ahead*
<yari> some combination of curiosity and humility. I think any member, just like any leader, should be interested in what they can learn from their colleagues. Everything we do here is part of the process of learning from each other.
<Dustin> Genuinely caring about people in general, and having actually worked a sufficient amount to have some degree of resilience and understanding of hardships other people likely face. Without sincerity towards problems, it cannot be expected for a person to effectively lead building a solution. At least not without the help of someone else with that trait.
— Joe has joined, Treasurer_&_MAPP_person has quit
<DreadPirateDrew> anything else before we move to voting?
<pmchi> I have a question: how do you, as head of committees, plan to address concerns of the PNC’s relationship to and their share of the workload with our committees?
<yari> I think some more transparent iteration of the kanban board could be implemented that would help with this. i.e., ensure that all updates to what committees are doing are put on a kanban/ticket system, and then it is the VC's job to ensure that any items which need help are brought to the attention of either the PNC or the membership at large (or both)
<yari> I know members of the PNC want to help, I just think that the communication between all members is not where it should be
<Ty-> By reviewing all discussions carefully and assisting in making sense of each. At all times any issues should be brought up to be addressed directly, and where issues are noted I would ask directly myself and or to the board to make sure it's squared away as soon as possible. If any of the work needs to be split in times of need, it will be done as effectively as possible. 
<MichaelC_Scribe> any more questions? follow-ups? follow-ups from candidates to other candidates?
<Dustin> What Yari said, but I would suggest having kanban as part of a weekly meeting for PNC sync on work. Someone should be bringing it up and sharing it on screen when we have Jitsi meetings and are going through committee and other work, in my opinion
<MichaelC_Scribe> oh
<MichaelC_Scribe> sorry Dustin I thought I saw you respond
<Woden> I have a question
<Ty-> We already have weekly meetings, so I would pop into each of those as I already do, and more so. I also try to frequent other party meetings to observe how they handle meetings. 
<DreadPirateDrew> AJ shoot
<Woden> Every single member of the PNC has felt overworked at one point or another, and they are often wearing five different hats. What can we do to fix this?
<MichaelC_Scribe> speak for yourself AJ /j
<MichaelC_Scribe> Nah I can agree lol
<Woden> Don't worry Michael, it is coming for you : )
<MichaelC_Scribe> Tbf it kinda already has, just moreso because other life events took precedent for a few weeks
<Ty-> Consolidating positions is understandable but there should always be an active reach out for prospects to fill each position accordingly. So, if an agenda is proposed which consists of wearing multiple hats, break those points down so only one hat per week or task is wore, and do not try to tackle every point at once. 
<Dustin> Speaking for myself, even when work does not exist I create more for myself, and I think a lot of us have similar habits. It needs to be finding what we need to make us more credible and sincere. Keeping things to tasks and particularly for repeating tasks, we will learn over time what the actual workloads look like by repetition and become able to scope and plan work.
<yari> I think we just need to keep talking about it. The months when we stop talking about burnout and supporting each other are the months when it starts to creep up on us. Burnout will keep happening. We can of course make the organizational structure better. I don't think i have all the answers for how that can happen, but i know if we keep talking about it, it will get better. I would propose a time set aside in meetings regularly to discuss this, actually.
<Ty-> My family always said, never take what you're not going to eat. You can always come back for seconds, tho. 
<Dustin> If we have more people, more tasks will be taken care of more easily and quickly, but when we do so more tasks may appear due to growth
<iAmV> Great answers across the board. <3
<Dustin> Everyone should only take on what they feel they can and should, and then we can find ways to swarm stuff so we do not have to operate like full time workers and still achieve the same tasks
<MichaelC_Scribe> What V said
<DreadPirateDrew> Voting?
<Joe> 2nd
<Woden> No objections
<DreadPirateDrew> OK all voting members please DM your list to Michael
<iAmV> Thank you so much candidates for accepting nominations.
<Woden> I DMd Michael on discord
<MichaelC_Scribe> Alright, for voting... Voting members, private message me your list of the candidates and corresponding numbers (lower the number, the more you prefer the candidate. you can assign the same number to more than one candidate and not assign a number to a candidate)
<MichaelC_Scribe> or
<MichaelC_Scribe> ordering works too
<yari> i will abstain from voting. i regret that i was unable to have my 2nd come here for today
<DreadPirateDrew> Remember you wouldn't just be voting for yourself 
<Joe> Agreed, vote Yari. 
<yari> okay, fair enough.
<Joe> Ty
<MichaelC_Scribe> just confirming... how many voting members are currently present?
<Joe> MAPP here
<yari> CA
<yari> IN is Woden
<yari> IL is pmchi
<DreadPirateDrew> 4 MA,IN,CA,IL
<yari> i think its just the four
<DreadPirateDrew> No PA rep tonight
<MichaelC_Scribe> alright, I have four, then
<pmchi> On moment
<pmchi> One
<Joe> Moment activate?
<iAmV> brr
<DreadPirateDrew> Do you have results?
<MichaelC_Scribe> I'm tallying them now
<pmchi> Can I please request a vote from the Nonvoting member states? For tie breaking purposes if need be, and voice hearing purposes if nothing else
<DreadPirateDrew> cool
<MichaelC_Scribe> also, how are we doing tallying/showing the results?
<MichaelC_Scribe> for openness and transparency purposes
<iAmV> or just a winner is good
<iAmV> (i think)
<DreadPirateDrew> Put the spreadsheet attached to the minutes
<MichaelC_Scribe> noted
<yari> please remember to anonymize the votes
<DreadPirateDrew> and the winner is....
<DreadPirateDrew> Anxiety
<Joe> And dread
<MichaelC_Scribe> results are tallied, now time to determine a winner!
<Dustin> &pirates
<yari> lol
<pmchi> 🏴‍☠️
<MichaelC_Scribe> ok uh
<MichaelC_Scribe> so tech quesiton
<yari> yes?
<MichaelC_Scribe> 1. most importantly, how do i create a sharable link
<MichaelC_Scribe> 2. can i create black borders around the boxes for easy viewing of each box?
<yari> you can share the spreadsheet in the wiki
<MichaelC_Scribe> if so, how
<yari> it doesn't have to happen now
<MichaelC_Scribe> ye but it might be better if it was now so we can all see it now?
<DreadPirateDrew> all we need now is the winner
<yari> i feel like both of those answers are better given on voice chat
<pmchi> Link later, name now :)
<yari> ^
<Ty-> I'd prefer it be now. It's been a 1.7h meeting. we may as well stick around to see it. 
<iAmV> Welcome to election nights.
<MichaelC_Scribe> it seems we have a clear winner! and the winner is... Ty Clifford!! Congrats, Ty <3
<Ty-> :D
<Woden> Congrats Ty!
<yari> congrats!
<DreadPirateDrew> Congrats
<iAmV> Congrats ty!
<Dustin> Congratulations!
<Woden> Happy to see you serve on the PNC
<Ty-> Thank you : ) 
<MichaelC_Scribe> Spreadsheet link will be shared momentarily to the minutes. if not tonight (I have to be awake early tomorrow), then sometime early tomorrow.
<yari> thank you michael
<Joe> Congratulations!
<DreadPirateDrew> That should be adequate
<pmchi> Congratulations!
<Joe> Motion to adjourn!
<pmchi> Second
<yari> 3rd
<DreadPirateDrew> all in favor?
<Joe> Aye
<Woden> Aye
<yari> aye
<pmchi> Aye
22:42:10 <DreadPirateDrew> Thank you all, we are adjourned