View source for PNC 12/13/20

== Agenda ==

=== Old Business ===

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Proposed amendments to PNC Bylaws

Article I - add the following:
The term “state” as used in these articles includes the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, Guam, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Northern Mariana Islands, American Samoa, and the U.S. Minor Outlying Islands.

Article III, section 3, 7
Each delegation shall be treated equally in all matters with an exception in the matter of nominations for President and Vice-President of the United States, wherein each delegation shall have a vote in a national convention weighted by its population in millions rounded up to the next whole million. In the case of the delegation representing a constituency that has a primary election wherein the pirate party has state ballot status, the delegation shall allot its votes to candidates in proportion to the results of the state’s primary.

Article III, section 5, 1.
Officers and Subcommittee Liaisons shall not participate in PNC votes, unless the Officer or Subcommittee Liaison in question is also acting as a State Representative, each recognized state delegation, without regard to delegation size, shall have one vote.

Article V, section 1, 3
Unless expressly stated in the United States Pirate Cooperative Association (USPCA) bylaws, the Pirate National Committee shall be considered the operating board of the United States Pirate Cooperative Association.
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=== Reports ===

==== IT ====

==== Outreach ====


==== Other ====

=== Decision ===


== Attending ==

* Bosun: Joseph Klein USPP Chair
* jokeefe: James O’Keefe, Secretary, Massachusetts
* Sayyida: Megan Klein Vice Chair


=== Non-Voting ===

* Olivia_: Olivia Kristiann, volunteer
* Yari: Rose Klein, California
* pmchi: Mitchel Davilo, ILPP

== Summary ==

Passed three of the four changes to the PNC Bylaws:

* Article I
* Article III, section 5, 1.
* Article V, section 1, 3

MA will vote on whether to approve the change to Article III, section 3, 7.

== Minutes ==

'''Record of the meeting'''

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[9:04pm] Bosun: We have quorum, let's get started - IDs please
[9:04pm] Yari: Rose Klein, California
[9:04pm] jokeefe: James O’Keefe, Secretary, Massachusetts
[9:04pm] Bosun: Joseph Klein, USPP chair
[9:04pm] Olivia_: Olivia Kristiann, volunteer
[9:04pm] Sayyida: Megan Klein Vice Chair
[9:04pm] pmchi: Mitchel Davilo, ILPP
[9:05pm] Bosun: cool.
[9:05pm] Sayyida: I am the Wisconsin Rep for tonight
[9:06pm] jokeefe: Meeting page: https://wiki.pirate-party.us/PNC_12/13/20
[9:06pm] papegaai: Title: PNC 12/13/20 - United States Pirate Party (at wiki.pirate-party.us)
[9:06pm] Bosun: Old business. Proposed bylaw changes, and update on USPP.coop.
[9:07pm] Bosun: I see we have them under outreach, and IT updates first?
[9:07pm] tony left the chat room.
[9:08pm] jokeefe: I have an issue with Article III, section 3, 7
[9:08pm] jokeefe: specifically:
[9:08pm] jokeefe: wherein each delegation shall have a vote in a national convention weighted by its population in millions rounded up to the next whole million
[9:09pm] pmchi left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[9:09pm] pmchi joined the chat room.
[9:09pm] jokeefe: my concern is that we run the risk that barely organized state parties would have more of a vote than more organized parties, merely because of the population of the state
[9:10pm] Yari: Coop rules kind of limit us in that sense.
[9:10pm] Bosun: OK - but they need to be recognized delegations.
[9:11pm] Yari: How do we define members smaller than states?
[9:11pm] Yari: Isn't this only for conventions?
[9:11pm] jokeefe: How do the coop rules limit us?
[9:12pm] Yari: Every member needs a vote
[9:12pm] Yari: Question is how we define members
[9:12pm] Bosun: IN matter of the coop each state (or district, territory, etc) has one vote.
[9:12pm] jokeefe: Last I knew every state was a member
[9:13pm] Sayyida: I read it as 1 state 1 vote
[9:13pm] jokeefe: thanks Bosun
[9:13pm] pmchi left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[9:13pm] Sayyida: you don't get votes by the amount of people in your state party or state size or how well organized or not you are
[9:13pm] pmchi joined the chat room.
[9:13pm] Bosun: No we only have states recognized per the PNC bylaws.
[9:13pm] Sayyida: its one state one vote right?
[9:14pm] Bosun: yes
[9:14pm] Yari: Except for conventions
[9:14pm] Yari: Which is the section jokeefe is referring to
[9:14pm] jokeefe: I also don’t understand how Article III, section 5, 1. is workable given the state of the recognized states and officers.
[9:14pm] Bosun: Yes, but a convention is not a board and is not the coop.
[9:15pm] Sayyida: then we would be back at the argument that the democratss use to keep 3rd parties out
[9:15pm] Yari: Before we move on to the other section, is there an understanding of 3,7
[9:16pm] jokeefe: no
[9:17pm] jokeefe: still do not agree that we have to allocate vote for presidential nominee by population of a state
[9:17pm] Sayyida: I am going to ask bluntly jokeefe what exactly are your issues with this? is it because MA is small and put together and WI is not and you want something more solid?
[9:17pm] jokeefe: wasn’t even thinking of that.
[9:17pm] pmchi left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[9:18pm] Sayyida: is the 3 different groups hard to separate?
[9:18pm] pmchi joined the chat room.
[9:18pm] Bosun: III, 5, 1 is just explicitly adding one state one vote to the ned a sentence from the current bylaws that already implies one state one vote.
[9:18pm] pmchi: The original concern addressed is the chance of over representation and control due to population?
[9:18pm] Sayyida: I don't seem to understand why you are asking questions in an obtuse way
[9:18pm] Bosun: .. end
[9:18pm] Sayyida: pmchi, but you can't have more than 1 vote
[9:19pm] Yari: Jokeefe, what's the suggested alternative to population proportion voting?
[9:19pm] Sayyida: unless you are in a convention, which doesn't apply to co-op
[9:19pm] pmchi: So then I’m also confused lol
[9:19pm] Sayyida: let alone the board ruleds
[9:19pm] Sayyida: rules*
[9:19pm] pmchi left the chat room. (Client Quit)
[9:19pm] Sayyida: exactly why I am too. which is why jokeefe please be plain
[9:21pm] pmchi joined the chat room.
[9:21pm] Bosun: In a convention, I argue, you need proportionality by population.
[9:21pm] Bosun: It only appleis to nominations for Predident and Vice President.
[9:21pm] mikey left the chat room. (Quit: brb)
[9:21pm] jokeefe: we are so far away from running a presidential candidate, I am not sure why this change is so pressing?
[9:22pm] pmchi: I guess it’s better to have the established rules early
[9:22pm] Sayyida: its at least a good idea to have some base, some precedent
[9:22pm] Yari: Agree with pmchi we can always change it later
[9:22pm] Sayyida: we are 22 past the hour
[9:23pm] jokeefe: I disagree Yari. It is easier to set it than to change it.
[9:23pm] Sayyida: I will leave if we are going to argue about this for the next 8 min
[9:23pm] Bosun: We can table the convention amendment for next meeting or indefinatly.
[9:23pm] Yari: Yes, which is why I'm curious what your alternative is
[9:23pm] Sayyida: good night
[9:24pm] Momma_turtle left the chat room. (Quit: Leaving)
[9:24pm] Sayyida left the chat room. (Quit: Leaving)
[9:24pm] jokeefe: I have no objection to the first and last changes.
[9:24pm] Yari: Do we still have quorum?
[9:25pm] jokeefe: Yari, when I was in the Greens, I do not think the presidential nominating convention was proportionaly by population, but it might have changed since then
[9:25pm] jokeefe: Only if Bosun takes over as rep. from WI, Yari
[9:25pm] Yari: Do you remember what it was?
[9:26pm] pmchi left the chat room. (Quit: https://webchat.pirateirc.net/)
[9:26pm] jokeefe: I don’t, but they were well more along than we are.
[9:27pm] pmchi joined the chat room.
[9:27pm] Bosun: So that is everything except Article III, section 3, 7?
[9:27pm] jokeefe: how would Article III, section 5, 1. work given the current state of the state parties and officers?
[9:27pm] Yari: Yes true, but again I would like alternatives instead of simple objections. I'll do some research.
[9:28pm] Bosun: Ehat do you mean?
[9:28pm] Bosun: What do you mean?
[9:28pm] pmchi: Alternatives like ranked choice?
[9:28pm] jokeefe: Thanks, Yari
[9:29pm] Yari: Pmchi that is method of voting and not proportionality, though still a good point.
[9:29pm] Bosun: Go read the current bylaws -
[9:29pm] jokeefe: No objections to Article III, section 5, 1,
[9:30pm] jokeefe: Sorry for my misunderstanding
[9:30pm] pmchi: So something for next week would be for alternatives to proportional representation?
[9:30pm] Bosun: II, 5, 1 only adds "each recognized state delegation, without regard to delegation size, shall have one vote."
[9:31pm] Yari: Section III, 3,7 is, I believe, being tabled. Yes.
[9:31pm] pmchi left the chat room. (Client Quit)
[9:31pm] mikey joined the chat room.
[9:31pm] Bosun: Yes.
[9:31pm] pmchi joined the chat room.
[9:31pm] jokeefe: No objections to anything but Article III, section 3, 7
[9:32pm] Yari: No objections, though I have no vote.
[9:32pm] Bosun: Then let's vote on everything but II. 3, 7.
[9:32pm] jokeefe: However, I will put it on MA’s agenda Wed. and if the meeting votes for it, I will act as the MA meeting so desires
[9:33pm] Bosun: So you want us to table everything Jokeefe?
[9:34pm] jokeefe: No objections to anything but Article III, section 3, 7
[9:34pm] jokeefe: Just want to table Article III, section 3, 7
[9:34pm] Bosun: OK - so done
[9:34pm] pmchi: Is there outreach this Tuesday?
[9:34pm] Yari: Yes
[9:34pm] Yari: Sorry about last week
[9:35pm] Bosun: all in favor of the proposal *without* III.3.7?
[9:35pm] Bosun: Aye
[9:35pm] jokeefe: aye
[9:35pm] Bosun: of passes.
[9:35pm] Bosun: motion to adjpurn?
[9:35pm] pmchi: Aye
[9:35pm] pmchi: Aye
[9:35pm] jokeefe: Will update the document on the wiki
[9:35pm] Olivia_: aye
[9:35pm] Bosun: thank youy.
[9:35pm] jokeefe: aye
[9:36pm] Bosun: thank you.
[9:36pm] Bosun: adjpurned


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