United States Pirate Party - User contributions [en]

User:Kusanagi

2026-01-06T16:44:25Z

Kusanagi:

==about==
ex chair/PNC board 2011-2017
now: admin on USPP discord, SOC analyst/pentester, HOPE organizer

==Contact information:==

* Email: lizkgorski[at]gmail[dot]com

* Discord: phoenixfyrefly

* Signal: kusanagi.23

===IRC:===
My handles usually are kusanagi or kittiekorn (with underscores when disconnections happen)

* PirateIRC: Incredibly rare these days. #uspp

* Libera: I'm usually found in ##Llamas, #2600, ##chat, ##math and #not-math.

===Socials:===

* www.twitter.com/liz_kusanagi (dead)
* https://infosec.exchange/@kusanagi
* bluesky is @sec-9.jp

User:Kusanagi

2026-01-06T16:43:39Z

Kusanagi:

==about==
ex chair/PNC board 2011-2017
now: admin on USPP discord, SOC analyst/pentester, HOPE organizer

==Contact information:==

* Email: lizkgorski[at]gmail[dot]com

* Discord: phoenixfyrefly

* Signal: kusanagi.23

===IRC:===
My handles usually are kusanagi or kittiekorn (with underscores when disconnections happen)

* PirateIRC:
Incredibly rare these days. #uspp

* Libera: I'm usually found in ##Llamas, #2600, ##chat, ##math and #not-math.

===Socials:===

www.twitter.com/liz_kusanagi
https://infosec.exchange/@kusanagi
bluesky is @sec-9.jp

User:Kusanagi

2026-01-06T16:40:25Z

Kusanagi:

Contact information:

Email: lizkgorski[at]gmail[dot]com

Discord: phoenixfyrefly

phone: Signal number provided on Discord

IRC:
My handles usually are kusanagi or kittiekorn (with underscores when disconnections happen)

PirateIRC:
Incredibly rare these days. #uspp

Libera: I'm usually found in ##Llamas, #2600, ##chat, ##math and #not-math.

Socials:

www.twitter.com/liz_kusanagi
https://infosec.exchange/@kusanagi
bluesky is @sec-9.jp

New York

2026-01-06T16:39:12Z

Kusanagi:

{{Infobox party
| party = New York Pirate Party
| logo = None
| logocaption = None
| state = New York
| website = None
| wiki = None
| facebook = [https://www.facebook.com/NewYorkPirateParty New York Pirate Party]
| twitter = [https://twitter.com/NYPirateParty @NYPirateParty]
| linkedin = None
| youtube = None
| telegram = None
| diaspora = None
| captain = None
| firstofficer = None
| quartermaster = None
| phone = None
| address = None
| email = lizkgorski@gmail.com
| pnc = None
}}
The New York Pirate Party was started in the early 2010s.

To help, you can join the [https://discord.gg/xpDFh26z NYPP discord] You can also connect with Pirates in nearby states on the [https://discord.com/invite/3gzEfhM2mB USPP Discord].

[[Category:State Party]]

Psychiatric Disabilities

2024-11-08T05:40:07Z

Kusanagi:

Sometimes its necessary to be a little delusional to believe you can take on something as huge as starting another political party. (You don't have to be crazy to work here, but it helps!) So it is no surprise that you may come across people with psychiatric disorders in your politcal adventures. You will come across people occasionally with a mild neurosis since these are fairly common and harmless, but rarely also, someone bordering on dangerous may seek to join the ranks. In order to protect the members and the reputation of the oraniztion, a strategy must be developed to deal with such individuals successfully.

As we are brand spanking new, we fortunately have had few such experiences, but we can study the stories offered from members of the Swedish PP. Add your own information as well. This is a wiki.

'''Examples that have happened:'''

Controlling personality:
"I wish that all communication between you go through me"

Alcohol Problems:
People attending meetings, leafleting, canvassing, etc. while intoxicated

Provocative behavior:
"It was a shame that Hitler lost the war"

Sexually inappropriate:
"Your daughter lives on xxx street." (Or any other type of sexual harassment)

Outlandish Bragging:
"I was a secret spy for the military"

Extreme conspiracy theorists:
(Certainly followers of David Icke fall in this category)

Agitators:
Exhibitors of violent behavior cannot be tolerated, but must not be abruptly confronted, either. Always attempt to diffuse and coax the agitator out of the situation, or disperse if necessary to protect meeting members. Always attempt to de-escalate.

'''What to do?'''

Need to discuss, or get some good advice, on how to handle a difficult individual? Normally, no one talks about it when there is a stigma associated with it, so it can be difficult to discuss issues with the person directly. Instead, contact other party members and leaders for advice, or intervention. Don't be put off by not being answered by the first person you reach out to for assistance. Call the next higher up until you get some help. Phone numbers are listed in the wiki

Wyoming

2024-11-06T21:33:11Z

Kusanagi: /* Possible Contacts */

{{Infobox party
| party = Wyoming Pirate Party
| logo = None
| logocaption = None
| state = Wyoming
| website = None
| wiki = None
| facebook = [https://www.facebook.com/wyomingpirates/ Wyoming Pirates]
| twitter = None
| linkedin = None
| youtube = None
| telegram = None
| diaspora = None
| captain = None
| firstofficer = None
| quartermaster = None
| phone = None
| address = None
| email = None
| pnc = None
}}
There is no active pirate party in this state, but [https://discord.com/invite/3gzEfhM2mB connect with pirates on our Discord] and contact pirates on your state channel.

If you want to start a local chapter in this state, email [mailto:info@uspirates.org info@uspirates.org] so we know.

== Possible Contacts ==
* [mailto:vkfarfalle@proton.me Victor Farfalle]

[[Category:State Party]]

New York

2024-11-06T21:32:55Z

Kusanagi:

{{Infobox party
| party = New York Pirate Party
| logo = None
| logocaption = None
| state = New York
| website = None
| wiki = None
| facebook = [https://www.facebook.com/NewYorkPirateParty New York Pirate Party]
| twitter = [https://twitter.com/NYPirateParty @NYPirateParty]
| linkedin = None
| youtube = None
| telegram = None
| diaspora = None
| captain = None
| firstofficer = None
| quartermaster = None
| phone = None
| address = None
| email = lkg@phoenixrisingsec.com
| pnc = None
}}
The New York Pirate Party was started in the early 2010s.

To help, you can join the [https://discord.gg/xpDFh26z NYPP discord] You can also connect with Pirates in nearby states on the [https://discord.com/invite/3gzEfhM2mB USPP Discord].

[[Category:State Party]]

New York

2024-11-06T21:32:40Z

Kusanagi:

{{Infobox party
| party = New York Pirate Party
| logo = None
| logocaption = None
| state = New York
| website = None
| wiki = None
| facebook = [https://www.facebook.com/NewYorkPirateParty New York Pirate Party]
| twitter = [https://twitter.com/NYPirateParty @NYPirateParty]
| linkedin = None
| youtube = None
| telegram = None
| diaspora = None
| captain = None
| firstofficer = None
| quartermaster = None
| phone = None
| address = None
| email = lkg@phoenixrisingsec.com
| pnc = None
}}
The New York Pirate Party was started in the early 2010s.

To help, you can join the [https://discord.gg/xpDFh26z NYPP discord] You can also connect with Pirates in nearby states on the[https://discord.com/invite/3gzEfhM2mB USPP Discord].

[[Category:State Party]]

Wyoming

2024-11-06T21:30:19Z

Kusanagi: /* Possible Contacts */

User:Kusanagi

2024-10-03T00:58:55Z

Kusanagi:

Contact information:

Email: lizkgorski[at]gmail[dot]com

Discord: phoenixfyrefly

phone: Signal number provided on Discord

IRC:
My handles usually are kusanagi or kittiekorn (with underscores when disconnections happen)

PirateIRC:
Rare these days. #uspp

Libera: I'm usually found in ##Llamas, #2600, ##chat, ##math and #not-math.

Socials:

www.twitter.com/liz_kusanagi
https://infosec.exchange/@kusanagi
bluesky is active, but changing handle.

Officers

2019-12-03T02:46:25Z

Kusanagi: /* Quartermaster */

== '''Captain''' ==

== '''First Officer''' ==

== '''Quartermaster''' ==

Officers

2019-12-03T02:46:20Z

Kusanagi: /* First Officer */

== '''Captain''' ==

== '''First Officer''' ==

== '''Quartermaster''' ==

Daniel Gorski

Officers

2019-12-03T02:46:16Z

Kusanagi: /* Captain */

== '''Captain''' ==

== '''First Officer''' ==

Caleb Langeslag

== '''Quartermaster''' ==

Daniel Gorski

Pirate National Committee (PNC)

2019-11-26T03:42:55Z

Kusanagi: /* Member States (Primary Representative, Secondary Representative) */

{{USPP NAV}}
The Pirate National Committee is an assembly of representatives from each recognized state Pirate Party.

==PNC Membership==
===Member States (Primary Representative, Secondary Representative)===
*Florida (Bradley Hall)
*Georgia (Jarod Smith)
*Massachusetts (Jamie O'Keefe)
*New York (Liz Gorski)
*Oregon (Kyle DeVore)
*Washington (Jeff Talada, Brady Dibble)
*Wisconsin (Joseph T. Klein, Megan Klein)

===Probationary States===
*California (Orion Steele, Max Bugrov)

===Observer States===
*[http://mdpirateparty.org/ Maryland]
*Michigan
*Missouri

==Officers==
:'''Captain''': Lindsay-Anne Brunner
::'''Phone''':
::'''Email''':
:'''First Mate''': Caleb Langeslag
::'''Phone''':
::'''Email''':
:'''Quartermaster''': Daniel Gorski
::'''Phone''':
::'''Email''':

==Documents==
*[[Pirate National Committee (PNC)/Constitution|Constitution]]
*[[Pirate National Committee (PNC)/Bylaws|Bylaws]]
*[[Pirate National Committee (PNC)/Policies|Policies]]
*[[Pirate National Committee (PNC)/Minutes|Meeting Minutes and Recordings]]
*[[Pirate National Committee (PNC)/State Report | State Report]]

[[Category:USPP]]
[[Category:USPP Orgs]]
[[Category:Pirate National Committee]]

User:Kusanagi

2019-11-26T03:40:07Z

Kusanagi:

Contact information:

Email: kusanagi.chroma[at]gmail[dot]com

phone: 818-724-7662 - text only.

IRC:

PirateIRC, irc.2600.net: kusanagi

On 2600, I'm usually found in #2600 and #minecraft.

Occasionally I'm found on EFnet and Freenode as either kusanagi, kittiekorn or some alt.
On EFnet I'm in #geekissues.
On Freenode, I'm in #/r/nyc, #VFOS, ##math and #not-math.

www.twitter.com/liz_kusanagi

PNC 5/8/13

2013-05-07T05:57:22Z

Kusanagi: /* 3 - Review of previous minutes */

=::PNC Meeting Agenda::=
::'''--- 05/08/2013 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://uspirates.org/wiki/PNC_5/8/13

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

Meeting has not yet occurred.

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*Attending

*Excused

*Unexcused

*Probation

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====

==== 1.4 - Other ====

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting called to order at: __:___pm EDT
*Meeting chaired by _________
*Secretary for this meeting is _________
*Quorum is established: ___ out of 8 Members present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://uspirates.org/wiki/PNC_4/10/13

=== 4 - REPORTS ===

==== 4.1 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===

<Put Agenda here before sending out>

=== - AOB - ===

*Next meeting: ______ at _:__PM EDT
*Meeting closed: ____________

=== - Logs of the Meeting - ===
<pre>
Put raw IRC logs here
</pre>

PNC 5/8/13

2013-05-07T05:56:41Z

Kusanagi: /* ::PNC Meeting Agenda:: */

=::PNC Meeting Agenda::=
::'''--- 05/08/2013 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://uspirates.org/wiki/PNC_5/8/13

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

Meeting has not yet occurred.

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*Attending

*Excused

*Unexcused

*Probation

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====

==== 1.4 - Other ====

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting called to order at: __:___pm EDT
*Meeting chaired by _________
*Secretary for this meeting is _________
*Quorum is established: ___ out of 8 Members present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://uspirates.org/wiki/PNC_4/24/13

=== 4 - REPORTS ===

==== 4.1 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===

<Put Agenda here before sending out>

=== - AOB - ===

*Next meeting: ______ at _:__PM EDT
*Meeting closed: ____________

=== - Logs of the Meeting - ===
<pre>
Put raw IRC logs here
</pre>

PNC 5/8/13

2013-05-07T05:56:16Z

Kusanagi:

=::PNC Meeting Agenda::=
::'''--- mm/dd/yyyy 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://uspirates.org/wiki/PNC_5/8/13

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

Meeting has not yet occurred.

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*Attending

*Excused

*Unexcused

*Probation

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====

==== 1.4 - Other ====

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting called to order at: __:___pm EDT
*Meeting chaired by _________
*Secretary for this meeting is _________
*Quorum is established: ___ out of 8 Members present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://uspirates.org/wiki/PNC_4/24/13

=== 4 - REPORTS ===

==== 4.1 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===

<Put Agenda here before sending out>

=== - AOB - ===

*Next meeting: ______ at _:__PM EDT
*Meeting closed: ____________

=== - Logs of the Meeting - ===
<pre>
Put raw IRC logs here
</pre>

PNC 4/24/13

2013-05-07T05:52:23Z

Kusanagi: /* ::PNC Meeting Agenda:: */

=::PNC Meeting Agenda::=
::'''--- 2013-4-24 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_4/24/13

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== Meeting Adjourned ===

Due to lack of Quorum, meeting was ajdourned.

User:Kusanagi

2013-05-05T15:04:17Z

Kusanagi:

Contact information:

Email: kusanagi.chroma[at]gmail[dot]com

phone: 818-724-7662 - text only.

IRC:

PirateIRC, irc.2600.net, EsperNet: kusanagi

On 2600, I'm usually found in #2600 and #minecraft.
on Esper, I'm usually found in #minecraft, #minecrafthelp and #minecraftwiki

Occasionally I'm found on EFnet and Freenode as either kusanagi, kittiekorn or some alt.
On EFnet I'm in #geekissues.
On Freenode, I'm in #/r/nyc, #VFOS, ##math and #not-math.

www.twitter.com/kittiekorn

PNC 2/6/13

2013-02-07T05:23:15Z

Kusanagi: /* 1.4 - Other Attendees */

=PNC Meeting Agenda=
::'''--- 2/6/2013 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://uspirates.org/wiki/PNC_2/6/13

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*Attending

**Zacqary Adam Green, New York
**Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin
**Kyle DeVore, Oregon
**Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts
**Bradley Hall, Florida

*Excused

**none

*Unexcused

**Georgia
**California
**Washington

*Probation

**Oklahoma

==== 1.2 - At-Large Members of the PNC ====

*Nick Desalvio, Maryland

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====
*Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, Captain
*Caleb Langeslag,MN, First Officer
*Daniel Gorski, NY, Quartermaster

==== 1.4 - Other Attendees ====
*Morgan Thompson, Wisconsin
*Stuart Gavin, Wisconsin
*Steven Smith, Florida

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting called to order at: 09:01 pm EST
*Meeting chaired by Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Secretary for this meeting is Daniel Gorski
*Quorum is established: 4 out of 8 Members present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_1/9/13

=== 4 - REPORTS ===

==== 4.1 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====

*Meeting to discuss Open Formats Standard and Pirate Party Website
**Tuesday, February 12, 2013 at 9 pm EDT

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===
*Vote to remove Oklahoma from Probationary status to observer
**Vote passed, 3 for, 1 against.
**Effective immediately, Oklahoma is put on observer status.

=== - AOB - ===
*PNC Bylaws revisions put forth for consideration
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B38EoA_8gSTeUW8xRUVGNHZNbzA/edit?usp=sharing

*Possible asynchronous meeting discussed

*Next meeting: February 20th at 9PM EST
*Meeting closed: 10:34 pm EST

=== - Logs of the Meeting - ===

Feb 06 21:01:19 <kusanagi> Ok everyone, please state your full name and state.

Feb 06 21:01:29 <kusanagi> Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, Capt.

Feb 06 21:01:33 <Zacqary> Zacqary Adam Green, NY

Feb 06 21:01:39 <MrSquared> Kyle DeVore, Oregon

Feb 06 21:01:53 <Bosun> Joseph T. Klein Wisconsin

Feb 06 21:02:01 <itspara> Nick, Maryland Observer

Feb 06 21:02:06 <OyajiVyse> Daniel Gorski, NY, QM

Feb 06 21:02:08 <kusanagi> itspara, full name

Feb 06 21:02:20 <itspara> *nick desalvio

Feb 06 21:02:34 <itspara> Sorry about that captain

Feb 06 21:02:35 <CalebLangeslag> Caleb Langeslag, MN, First Officer

Feb 06 21:02:44 <ToArmsMHearties> my name be Morgan Thompson, and I be here from Wisconsin.

Feb 06 21:02:47 <ToArmsMHearties> :D

Feb 06 21:03:09 <kusanagi> to clarify for the record, Bosun is the WI rep, correct?

Feb 06 21:03:26 * stubuntu (~stuartjam@65.29.rlr.yh) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 21:03:30 <Bosun> Always a spare cheesehead. Yes I am rep. official.

Feb 06 21:03:40 <stubuntu> more spare cheese

Feb 06 21:03:40 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:03:42 <kusanagi> awesome

Feb 06 21:03:43 <Zacqary> Just in case it's not cheesy enough

Feb 06 21:03:58 <kusanagi> stubuntu, identify for the record please

Feb 06 21:04:31 <kusanagi> and tonight's agenda is above. the reps: do you all agree to it?

Feb 06 21:04:44 <Zacqary> Yep

Feb 06 21:05:05 <Rush> Sure

Feb 06 21:05:15 <stubuntu> stuart gavin. wisconsin

Feb 06 21:05:16 <Bosun> ok

Feb 06 21:05:22 <CalebLangeslag> As well as the minutes?

Feb 06 21:05:25 <kusanagi> Rush, identify for the record

Feb 06 21:05:26 <CalebLangeslag> (of the last meeting)

Feb 06 21:05:36 <Bosun> see three cheeseheads

Feb 06 21:05:38 <kusanagi> was getting to that

Feb 06 21:06:52 <MrSquared> yep

Feb 06 21:07:37 <Rush> Bradley Hall, Florida, FLPP Chairman

Feb 06 21:08:14 <kusanagi> reps, do you agree with the minutes of the last meeting?

Feb 06 21:08:21 <Zacqary> Yep

Feb 06 21:08:28 <Bosun> Yep

Feb 06 21:08:30 <MrSquared> yes

Feb 06 21:08:38 <Rush> Yes

Feb 06 21:10:18 <kusanagi> awesome. so, let's kick this off.

Feb 06 21:10:37 <kusanagi> CalebLangeslag, IT committee report?

Feb 06 21:11:34 <CalebLangeslag> None. There shall be an IT committee meeting next week on
Tuesday (9pm Eastern) regarding the discussion of an Open Formats Standard, as well as final website tweaks, to finally get the website done and released.

Feb 06 21:11:42 <CalebLangeslag> I'll send out an IT meeting notice within the hour

Feb 06 21:12:18 <CalebLangeslag> That is all

Feb 06 21:12:50 <kusanagi> Awesome. on to the agenda item

Feb 06 21:13:38 <kusanagi> I'm sure you all know that PPOK has been out of the PNC on
probation for a while. I've tried to contact Marcus about this and have gotten no response.

Feb 06 21:14:30 <kusanagi> PPOK is long overdue for removal from probationary status to observer status

Feb 06 21:15:04 <kusanagi> Anyone like to make the motion to vote on removal/

Feb 06 21:15:11 <Bosun> so moved

Feb 06 21:15:52 <kusanagi> Seconds?

Feb 06 21:16:20 <kusanagi> ping Rush MrSquared Zacqary

Feb 06 21:16:29 <MrSquared> second

Feb 06 21:17:31 <OyajiVyse> all in favor?

Feb 06 21:17:35 <kusanagi> Vote now to remove the Pirate Party of Oklahoma from Probationary status to Observer status in the Pirate National Committee.

Feb 06 21:17:50 <kusanagi> Aye or Nay

Feb 06 21:18:09 <Bosun> aye

Feb 06 21:18:13 <Zacqary> aye

Feb 06 21:18:15 <MrSquared> aye

Feb 06 21:18:17 <Rush> nay

Feb 06 21:19:13 <kusanagi> Vote called.

Feb 06 21:19:23 <CalebLangeslag> The aye's have it

Feb 06 21:19:37 <CalebLangeslag> 3 for, 1 against

Feb 06 21:19:39 <kusanagi> Vote passed 3-1

Feb 06 21:20:46 <kusanagi> Ok, so PPOK is now observer status.

Feb 06 21:21:14 <kusanagi> Moving on to AOB.

Feb 06 21:21:46 * ToArmsMHearties coughs

Feb 06 21:21:57 <kusanagi> go ahead

Feb 06 21:22:44 <ToArmsMHearties> have you looked over my suggestions on reorganizing the Constitution (which are actually the same as bylaws, etc. etc.)

Feb 06 21:23:14 <kusanagi> I have, to some degree. Not as much as I'd like, as a few things have come up

Feb 06 21:23:25 <ToArmsMHearties> k

Feb 06 21:23:35 <CalebLangeslag> Do have a public link or anything?

Feb 06 21:23:43 <ToArmsMHearties> umm

Feb 06 21:23:47 <ToArmsMHearties> yeah. hang on

Feb 06 21:24:02 <ToArmsMHearties> it's in my Google Drive

Feb 06 21:24:36 <ToArmsMHearties> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B38EoA_8gSTeUW8xRUVGNHZNbzA/edit?usp=sharing

Feb 06 21:24:41 <CalebLangeslag> If it's plaintext, you can always just paste it to piratenpad.de

Feb 06 21:24:52 <ToArmsMHearties> it's uhh... not.

Feb 06 21:25:01 <narrenburg> It's LibreOffice.

Feb 06 21:25:03 <narrenburg> I remember.

Feb 06 21:25:06 <narrenburg> [Sorry for speaking.]

Feb 06 21:25:13 <ToArmsMHearties> right.

Feb 06 21:25:37 <kusanagi> narrenburg, please identify for the record

Feb 06 21:25:49 <narrenburg> Steven Smith, FL, youth member

Feb 06 21:26:10 <CalebLangeslag> I can reshare it as a PDF if desired.

Feb 06 21:26:27 <kusanagi> that probably would be best

Feb 06 21:26:30 <ToArmsMHearties> so can I...

Feb 06 21:26:32 <ToArmsMHearties> ;)

Feb 06 21:26:48 <ToArmsMHearties> it's fine. I'm just a bit ADD at the moment.

Feb 06 21:27:09 <kusanagi> it's fine, also open floor

Feb 06 21:27:46 <ToArmsMHearties> I have it as a Google Doc, too, but the formatting didn't all take.

Feb 06 21:30:34 * missle59 (~androirc@70.57.oqu.zp) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 21:30:36 <ToArmsMHearties> I did notice also the text " At least two delegates from each State Pirate Party which meets the qualifications set forth in Art. III §2, hereinafter referred to as Representatives. A State which sends Representatives to the PNC shall be considered a Member State with Representation in the PNC for the purposes of this document.

Feb 06 21:30:48 <ToArmsMHearties> which apparently suddenly appeared

Feb 06 21:31:04 <kusanagi> That is incorrect, only 1 was supposed to be written in there

Feb 06 21:31:12 <kusanagi> also, piratenpad just crashed

Feb 06 21:31:12 <CalebLangeslag> PDF: http://uspirates.org/Pirate_Constitution_annotated.pdf

Feb 06 21:31:14 <ToArmsMHearties> according to kusanagi, with whom I've been... yeah.

Feb 06 21:31:43 <ToArmsMHearties> beat me to it.

Feb 06 21:31:57 <CalebLangeslag> The power of SSH!

Feb 06 21:32:03 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:32:19 <ToArmsMHearties> THE POWER OF OPENSSH COMPELS YOU

Feb 06 21:32:21 <ToArmsMHearties> sorry

Feb 06 21:32:33 <Rush> I ssh'd into a coffee maker once

Feb 06 21:32:43 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:33:01 <Bosun> Was it running NetBSD?

Feb 06 21:33:55 <CalebLangeslag> If Mozilla would implement HTCPCP, then I could be accessing my coffee pot from a web browser https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46647

Feb 06 21:33:56 <ToArmsMHearties> anyway, my changes reorganize the document to a standard format, and the only real addition is the citation of a parliamentary reference. Also, I changed the name from Constitution to Bylaws, since the terms (legally speaking) are interchangeable.

Feb 06 21:34:45 <ToArmsMHearties> what you have as "bylaws" are more appropriately called Special Rules of Order.

Feb 06 21:35:20 <ToArmsMHearties> and what that means is they supersede RONR where they have force.

Feb 06 21:35:43 <ToArmsMHearties> but are beneath the level of the bylaws.

Feb 06 21:36:26 * kusanagi nods

Feb 06 21:37:14 * ToArmsMHearties was a card-carrying member of the National Association of Parliamentarians from 2006-10

Feb 06 21:38:03 <ToArmsMHearties> I really need to get back in to that, but it's something for when I have more time.

Feb 06 21:38:46 <ToArmsMHearties> they went and published a new version on me, too. :P

Feb 06 21:39:02 <kusanagi> Just when you had your back turned

Feb 06 21:39:08 <ToArmsMHearties> lol yep

Feb 06 21:39:46 <kusanagi> I was thinking of working on going through everything with the old constitution on Sunday, at about 9pm

Feb 06 21:40:01 <kusanagi> Or maybe Monday, same time

Feb 06 21:40:22 <ToArmsMHearties> my classes start on Monday (but thankfully, they're online)

Feb 06 21:40:33 * Bosun (~Bosun@pzed-90-35-978-39.west.biz.rr.com) has left #pnc (Leaving)

Feb 06 21:40:49 <kusanagi> stubuntu, you're the alternate, right/

Feb 06 21:41:14 * Bosun (~Bosun@pzed-90-35-978-39.west.biz.rr.com) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 21:41:24 <kusanagi> or not, lol

Feb 06 21:41:27 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:41:30 * kusanagi gives voice to Bosun

Feb 06 21:41:40 <ToArmsMHearties> Bosun, did your brain asplode?

Feb 06 21:41:54 <kusanagi> I'll send something out on SAB about it when the meeting concludes.

Feb 06 21:42:04 <Bosun> No ? just a little steam leak.

Feb 06 21:42:08 <kusanagi> You all are getting the SAB emails, correct?

Feb 06 21:42:17 <ToArmsMHearties> am I?

Feb 06 21:42:19 <ToArmsMHearties> I dunno

Feb 06 21:42:20 <narrenburg> Well, I don't think I should.

Feb 06 21:42:47 <Bosun> It is public and ransparent.

Feb 06 21:42:50 <kusanagi> If you would like, I can grab the signup link

Feb 06 21:43:08 <Bosun> transparent ? bu somtimes ran-parent

Feb 06 21:44:04 <ToArmsMHearties> SAB? Student Activities Board? :P

Feb 06 21:44:10 <narrenburg> State Advisory.

Feb 06 21:44:13 <narrenburg> Board.

Feb 06 21:44:35 <ToArmsMHearties> I was kidding.

Feb 06 21:44:36 <ToArmsMHearties> :P

Feb 06 21:44:40 <narrenburg> Ogh.

Feb 06 21:44:49 <ToArmsMHearties> ;)

Feb 06 21:45:13 <ToArmsMHearties> again, it's been a VERY long day and I'm being TOTALLY Ay-Day-Day right now.

Feb 06 21:46:29 <kusanagi> http://sab.uspirates.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sab

Feb 06 21:46:36 <kusanagi> took me a bit, vut i found it

Feb 06 21:47:02 <ToArmsMHearties> vut are jou sayink, kusanagi? :D

Feb 06 21:47:26 <kusanagi> my fingers are going bad on me

Feb 06 21:47:28 <kusanagi> :(

Feb 06 21:47:31 <ToArmsMHearties> :(

Feb 06 21:47:35 <ToArmsMHearties> that's not good

Feb 06 21:47:48 <kusanagi> nah

Feb 06 21:47:57 <kusanagi> it's all-right though, i'll deal

Feb 06 21:48:26 <kusanagi> Anyone have anything else to discuss?

Feb 06 21:48:47 <Zacqary> Yeah, um...are we really going to codify RONR in the bylaws?

Feb 06 21:49:01 <Zacqary> Given the fact that we're exploring doing meeting asynchronously?

Feb 06 21:49:06 <Bosun> As I posted on SAB ? Wisconsin incorporated as a coop

Feb 06 21:49:15 <stubuntu> woohoo!

Feb 06 21:49:25 <kusanagi> Zacqary, it can be amended out

Feb 06 21:49:30 <ToArmsMHearties> Zacqary: you can make a special rule of order.

Feb 06 21:50:17 <Zacqary> Well, yeah, we can make special rules, but it seems like we'd be superseding almost all of them.

Feb 06 21:50:28 <ToArmsMHearties> nah

Feb 06 21:50:45 <Zacqary> Are you familiar with the Mutiny project?

Feb 06 21:50:47 <ToArmsMHearties> all you need are a few tweaks and it works fine.

Feb 06 21:50:52 <ToArmsMHearties> wat

Feb 06 21:51:10 <Zacqary> It's the asynchronous meeting system we're, um, supposed to be working on.

Feb 06 21:51:23 <Zacqary> Let me see if I can find where I described it...

Feb 06 21:51:25 <ToArmsMHearties> oic

Feb 06 21:51:51 <ToArmsMHearties> there. now I'm on the SAB list

Feb 06 21:52:03 <Zacqary> Second post in this thread: http://pirate-party.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10

Feb 06 21:53:24 <Zacqary> Applying RONR to that might be like building a sandcastle with a bulldozer.

Feb 06 21:53:42 <kusanagi> I don't think RONR could be applied to it

Feb 06 21:53:51 <ToArmsMHearties> you know, you could just use a teamspeex server.

Feb 06 21:53:53 <ToArmsMHearties> :P

Feb 06 21:54:07 <ToArmsMHearties> or skype.

Feb 06 21:54:08 <Zacqary> That's even LESS asynchronous than IRC.

Feb 06 21:54:24 <kusanagi> real-time meetings could use ronr, but async? no

Feb 06 21:54:31 <ToArmsMHearties> why so asynchronous?

Feb 06 21:54:37 <kusanagi> it would drive us all crazy

Feb 06 21:55:02 <ToArmsMHearties> no, I mean Y U RECREATE WHEEL?!?!

Feb 06 21:55:06 <Zacqary> Because barely anyone's coming to the real-time ones.

Feb 06 21:55:14 <Zacqary> It's not very convenient.

Feb 06 21:55:15 <CalebLangeslag> Isn't the problem with the German Pirate Party that they're completely async and just bringing up conflicting votes that both pass, and other various uncertainties or disputes; that nothing gets done?

Feb 06 21:55:21 <Zacqary> I've had to miss a ton of them.

Feb 06 21:55:29 <CalebLangeslag> But I could certainly be wrong

Feb 06 21:55:45 <ToArmsMHearties> yeah, I don't like the idea of an asynchronous meeting.

Feb 06 21:55:53 <kusanagi> ToArmsMHearties, that's really up to the reps

Feb 06 21:55:57 <ToArmsMHearties> yeah I know

Feb 06 21:56:11 <ToArmsMHearties> but I'm just giving you my opinion as the resident expert.

Feb 06 21:56:11 <kusanagi> and it would be heaps easier, really

Feb 06 21:56:12 <Bosun> We just need to intimidate the others in showing up.

Feb 06 21:56:18 <Zacqary> Isn't the problem with the United States Pirate Party that we just have a bunch of meetings for very little reason and nothing gets done?

Feb 06 21:56:33 <Bosun> We have less now.

Feb 06 21:56:37 <kusanagi> Zacqary, that was part of the problem

Feb 06 21:56:57 <kusanagi> Meetings have been reduced, and things are moving

Feb 06 21:57:53 <Zacqary> Well, tonight for example. What has been achieved that could not have been achieved asynchronously?

Feb 06 21:58:02 <narrenburg> Um...

Feb 06 21:58:59 <Bosun> We have plenty of cheeseheads. We can takover another state. :-p

Feb 06 21:59:05 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:59:10 <narrenburg> [A Time for Tony]

Feb 06 21:59:31 <ToArmsMHearties> give her a broadside, Mr. Ubuntu!

Feb 06 21:59:32 <ToArmsMHearties> :D

Feb 06 22:00:33 <Bosun> pst ? your queue stu

Feb 06 22:00:56 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:01:21 <kusanagi> Zacqary, you're right. We still don't have the platform up

Feb 06 22:01:43 <CalebLangeslag> Put together a proposal of a fair legally-tested approach of conducting asynchronous meetings

Feb 06 22:02:24 <Zacqary> A legally-tested approach?

Feb 06 22:02:26 <stubuntu> huh?

Feb 06 22:03:31 <CalebLangeslag> It's what RONR is; which provides a tested system of fairly conducting business

Feb 06 22:03:58 <Bosun> The invented wheel.

Feb 06 22:04:21 <Zacqary> Well, I have a proposal. It's not yet tested. So I'm gonna implement it. Then whoever wants to start using it can use it. And if it works, it works.

Feb 06 22:05:07 <CalebLangeslag> Is it written anywhere publicly accessible?

Feb 06 22:05:24 <Zacqary> I just copypasted it a few minutes ago

Feb 06 22:05:35 <Zacqary> Second post in this thread describes it: http://pirate-party.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10

Feb 06 22:05:48 <CalebLangeslag> Sorry for missing that

Feb 06 22:06:22 <Zacqary> kusanagi's already a supporter of it, and I think she's been pseudocoding it for the past week

Feb 06 22:06:25 <CalebLangeslag> Isn't Google Wave what you describe?

Feb 06 22:06:43 <CalebLangeslag> Because we could trial the idea of hosting an install

Feb 06 22:06:44 * missle59 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)

Feb 06 22:06:54 * missle59 (~androirc@70.57.oqu.zp) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 22:07:01 <CalebLangeslag> (just based upon the first 2 paragraphs, still reading)

Feb 06 22:07:08 <ToArmsMHearties> that doesn't address the issue of legal muster.

Feb 06 22:07:17 <CalebLangeslag> Correct

Feb 06 22:07:25 <Zacqary> Legal muster? We're pirates.

Feb 06 22:07:33 <CalebLangeslag> Legal pirates. :P

Feb 06 22:07:49 <CalebLangeslag> At least some of us. xP

Feb 06 22:07:52 <ToArmsMHearties> RONR is widely accepted and understood.

Feb 06 22:08:09 <Zacqary> So was phrenology.

Feb 06 22:08:24 <ToArmsMHearties> that's not a fair comparison

Feb 06 22:08:25 <CalebLangeslag> There of course could be provisions added, which may take time to form

Feb 06 22:09:04 <ToArmsMHearties> in a COURT OF LAW, RONR is widely accepted and understood. So if someone sues you, there's legal backup.

Feb 06 22:09:12 <Zacqary> ...so?

Feb 06 22:09:24 * ToArmsMHearties facepalms

Feb 06 22:09:27 <Zacqary> How does this apply to a bunch of activists deciding what to do?

Feb 06 22:10:00 <kusanagi> We're not activists.

Feb 06 22:10:02 <kusanagi> we're

Feb 06 22:10:09 <kusanagi> we're becoming politicians

Feb 06 22:10:32 <missle59> activist politicians?

Feb 06 22:10:48 <kusanagi> the pnc is becoming a legal entity

Feb 06 22:11:05 <kusanagi> and if something happens, the pnc (and officers) could be held legally liable.

Feb 06 22:11:11 <ToArmsMHearties> have you seen what damage can be done in a court of law if they decide you did something to unfairly deny the rights of a member?

Feb 06 22:11:14 <Zacqary> When is it becoming a legal entity?

Feb 06 22:11:18 <ToArmsMHearties> EXACTLY.

Feb 06 22:11:26 <kusanagi> enroute

Feb 06 22:11:26 <Bosun> At some point someone will sue our asses.

Feb 06 22:11:35 <ToArmsMHearties> the officers could be held PERSONALLY liable.

Feb 06 22:11:48 <kusanagi> we need to correct the bylaws, then i can finish npo paperwork

Feb 06 22:11:53 <itspara> Kindof activist politicians.. though the greens are more of that

Feb 06 22:12:02 <itspara> Imo

Feb 06 22:12:20 <ToArmsMHearties> you really don't want to screw around with that.

Feb 06 22:12:20 <Zacqary> Why do we need to become an NPO at this stage?

Feb 06 22:12:31 <ToArmsMHearties> (not having legal backup like RONR, that is)

Feb 06 22:12:45 <itspara> Cause reasons

Feb 06 22:12:57 <kusanagi> because we're (both USPP and NYPP) need to control its assets

Feb 06 22:13:00 * mildbeard (~erik@hknv-28-026-620-99.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 22:13:15 <Zacqary> These assets being?

Feb 06 22:13:25 <kusanagi> the website, for one

Feb 06 22:13:26 <ToArmsMHearties> oh jeez, mildbeard came in. everybody hush.

Feb 06 22:13:30 <ToArmsMHearties> ;)

Feb 06 22:13:41 <CalebLangeslag> Money, servers, domains, website, etc

Feb 06 22:13:46 <ToArmsMHearties> yup

Feb 06 22:14:01 <itspara> Yeah

Feb 06 22:14:02 <ToArmsMHearties> gotta cover your assets.

Feb 06 22:14:10 <CalebLangeslag> At some point we'll also provide hosting and other services for emerging states, to facilitate the growth of the state parties

Feb 06 22:14:22 <kusanagi> In fact, PA already asked for that.

Feb 06 22:14:22 <Bosun> Contracts are made between legal entities.

Feb 06 22:14:31 <itspara> Plus pnc cant get any money without becoming shiny official and jumping through hoops

Feb 06 22:14:36 <mildbeard> sorry to be so late

Feb 06 22:14:46 <ToArmsMHearties> yeah, and the moment USPP makes a decision that a state party doesn't like, you can bet there will be a lawsuit.

Feb 06 22:14:53 <kusanagi> mildbeard, id for the record

Feb 06 22:14:54 <ToArmsMHearties> sooner or later.

Feb 06 22:15:03 * kusanagi gives voice to mildbeard

Feb 06 22:15:05 <mildbeard> Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts

Feb 06 22:16:27 <ToArmsMHearties> http://dl.openhandhelds.org/wiz/screenshots/zoltan.gif

Feb 06 22:16:45 <Bosun> Visions of Pirate Lawyer.

Feb 06 22:16:48 <ToArmsMHearties> :>

Feb 06 22:17:08 <Zacqary> So you're saying we've grown so large at this point that we cannot continue to grow without legally incorporating, thus giving us a whole TON of red tape to worry about?

Feb 06 22:17:11 <mildbeard> lmao

Feb 06 22:17:51 <kusanagi> red tape will be handled

Feb 06 22:18:07 <kusanagi> and to be honest, i'm fucking sick of not having access to USPP things

Feb 06 22:18:25 <kusanagi> i don't have a USPP email address, nor access to the former IT mailing address

Feb 06 22:18:37 <CalebLangeslag> We /still/ have no direct control over pirate-party.us even

Feb 06 22:18:54 <CalebLangeslag> I have to contact a person for the changes to even be made

Feb 06 22:18:55 <Zacqary> So basically you want to incorporate so that you can sue for the domains?

Feb 06 22:18:56 <kusanagi> i want USPP to own its shit, not handled by someone who's not available in WA

Feb 06 22:18:56 <ToArmsMHearties> :D

Feb 06 22:19:12 <kusanagi> including funds

Feb 06 22:19:12 * ToArmsMHearties agrees with kusanagi

Feb 06 22:19:14 <Bosun> Without a legal entity anyone who controls an asset can just take his/her ball home.

Feb 06 22:19:21 <kusanagi> \yes, Bosun

Feb 06 22:19:24 <CalebLangeslag> I don't think we'd be able to sue from incorporating AFTER the domain was already registered

Feb 06 22:19:27 * ToArmsMHearties agrees with Bosun

Feb 06 22:19:33 <kusanagi> And that has happened before

Feb 06 22:19:50 <ToArmsMHearties> I've seen it happen in county democratic parties.

Feb 06 22:19:58 <CalebLangeslag> We have uspirates.org which we do control; but pirate-party.us is an example of not having a legal structure to asset management

Feb 06 22:20:31 <Zacqary> And so legally incorporating is going to magically make everyone start cooperating and working together when they weren't before? Because if we can't get our shit together and be productive without a legal structure, are we really ready to handle having one at all?

Feb 06 22:20:59 <ToArmsMHearties> uhhhh

Feb 06 22:21:13 <ToArmsMHearties> society is BASED on a complex legal structure.

Feb 06 22:21:20 <narrenburg> The fact that we can't handle our stuff is somewhat irrelevant.

Feb 06 22:21:23 <Bosun> It is not a magic bullet, just a practical and real way to operate an organization.

Feb 06 22:21:27 <Zacqary> And that's working out great, isn't it?

Feb 06 22:21:35 <mildbeard> I think if USPP becomes a legally registered entity, we need a firm policy that we encourage members to obey the existing laws (e.g. monopoly copyright) even as we fight vigorously to change those unjust laws.

Feb 06 22:21:36 <narrenburg> No matter what happens, to move on, we have to become more legal.

Feb 06 22:21:45 <ToArmsMHearties> democracy is the worst kind of goverment. except for all the other ones.

Feb 06 22:21:46 <stubuntu> it also allows us to put things in the name of the part instead of its officers

Feb 06 22:21:54 <kusanagi> mildbeard, without a doubt.

Feb 06 22:22:28 <ToArmsMHearties> (yeah I just quoted Winston Churchill. deal with it)

Feb 06 22:22:28 <mildbeard> kusanagi, I'd want to consider voting it into the constitution.

Feb 06 22:23:06 <Bosun> I had to chain stubuntu to a chair to get him to sighn our corporate charter.

Feb 06 22:23:18 <Bosun> (not really)

Feb 06 22:23:20 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:23:25 <kusanagi> mildbeard, since the constitution is in the state of.. duress it's in, would that be feasible to wait?

Feb 06 22:23:31 <ToArmsMHearties> I would've signed it! :P

Feb 06 22:23:38 <ToArmsMHearties> I was in Milwaukee today, too.

Feb 06 22:23:50 <mildbeard> I don't know of any problem in the constitution, but it's not urgent until we incorporate.

Feb 06 22:24:00 <Bosun> Tis filed with the state.

Feb 06 22:24:28 <ToArmsMHearties> mildbeard: can't incorporate without the bylaws in place.

Feb 06 22:24:43 <Bosun> Nonsense.

Feb 06 22:24:44 <ToArmsMHearties> (as I explained earlier, constitution and bylaws are legally the same thing)

Feb 06 22:24:47 <mildbeard> bylaws are a disaster.

Feb 06 22:25:05 <Bosun> You just need the basic articles of incorporation.

Feb 06 22:25:07 <Zacqary> So is the PNC. None of us even agree what the hell this thing is or what it's for. And we're going to incorporate?

Feb 06 22:25:19 <narrenburg> Mildbeard, do you have Mr. Thompson's constitution edit?

Feb 06 22:25:23 <mildbeard> ToArmsMHearties, we have a separate bylaws and constitution. They have a distinct meaning.

Feb 06 22:25:32 <mildbeard> narrenburg, no

Feb 06 22:25:35 <ToArmsMHearties> uhhh, no, they don't

Feb 06 22:25:43 <narrenburg> May I PM to you?

Feb 06 22:25:46 <mildbeard> sure

Feb 06 22:26:03 <kusanagi> mildbeard, the constitution is bad too. ToArmsMHearties went over both with me

Feb 06 22:26:14 <ToArmsMHearties> apparently you missed the part where I mentioned I was a card-carrying member of the National Association of Parliamentarians for 4 years.

Feb 06 22:26:24 <kusanagi> he just logged in

Feb 06 22:26:37 <ToArmsMHearties> oh yeah

Feb 06 22:26:38 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:26:40 <ToArmsMHearties> sorry

Feb 06 22:26:55 <ToArmsMHearties> guess this is the time to mention all that, then. :P

Feb 06 22:27:11 <kusanagi> Zacqary, by agreeing to the constitution, however broken it is, the state parties agreed that this was the organizing and governing body of the mpnc.

Feb 06 22:27:16 <kusanagi> pnc, even

Feb 06 22:27:42 <kusanagi> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/Pirate_National_Committee_(PNC)/Constitution#Section_1:_Purpose

Feb 06 22:27:44 <Bosun> We can fix it.

Feb 06 22:28:01 <Bosun> Agile party development.

Feb 06 22:28:07 <kusanagi> EXACTLY

Feb 06 22:28:09 <ToArmsMHearties> we have the technology

Feb 06 22:28:25 <Zacqary> And incorporating will make us SO more agile.

Feb 06 22:28:26 <ToArmsMHearties> better, stronger, faster

Feb 06 22:28:34 <Bosun> No cyborgs though.

Feb 06 22:28:41 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:28:46 <Zacqary> We'll be SO flexible and able to adapt SO quickly with everything set in fucking legal stone.

Feb 06 22:28:51 <kusanagi> you know kusanagi is the name of a cyborg

Feb 06 22:28:53 <ToArmsMHearties> glad SOMEONE got the reference. I was starting to feel old

Feb 06 22:29:01 <kusanagi> >.>

Feb 06 22:29:16 <kusanagi> Zacqary, we just need to be in compliance

Feb 06 22:29:21 <Zacqary> With what?

Feb 06 22:29:28 <kusanagi> with the legal parts

Feb 06 22:29:33 <kusanagi> we can adapt with it

Feb 06 22:29:39 <ToArmsMHearties> Zacqary: we'll be a great party if someone sues the pants off of us and drains all of our resources.

Feb 06 22:29:54 <mildbeard> I am OK with some of the reforms I've seen to the current constitution if they make it legally stronger. I haven't seen a reform that changes the underlying purpose of the document so I'm OK with it.

Feb 06 22:30:14 <Bosun> Zacqary is a rebel and incorporation is establishment.

Feb 06 22:30:24 <Zacqary> Oh fuck off.

Feb 06 22:30:30 <kusanagi> mildbeard, we're going to go over everything on either sunday or monday to clean up and make the required changes

Feb 06 22:30:32 <CalebLangeslag> You know, the law, campaign finance law, since politics is serious business and competition is going to do everything to shoot you down legally

Feb 06 22:30:45 <ToArmsMHearties> can't do that right now, Zacqary. my DP is at work.

Feb 06 22:30:48 <mildbeard> that's fine but the PNC has to vote on any changes.

Feb 06 22:30:54 <kusanagi> mildbeard, yes

Feb 06 22:31:23 <mildbeard> ok np

Feb 06 22:31:25 * Zacqary has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 18.0.1/20130116073211])

Feb 06 22:31:33 <mildbeard> brb

Feb 06 22:31:44 <MrSquared> i g2g guys

Feb 06 22:31:53 <kusanagi> MrSquared, wait

Feb 06 22:31:57 <MrSquared> ok

Feb 06 22:31:58 <Bosun> I did not mean to piss him off. :-(

Feb 06 22:32:09 <kusanagi> we can continue this in post-meeting. want to call it, guys?

Feb 06 22:32:15 <kusanagi> Bosun, it's fine, i'll speak with him

Feb 06 22:32:26 <Bosun> move adjourn

Feb 06 22:32:32 <ToArmsMHearties> he was being confrontational about it. I just reflected his attitude.

Feb 06 22:32:55 <kusanagi> there's been a move to adjourn

Feb 06 22:32:59 <kusanagi> any seconds

Feb 06 22:33:01 <mildbeard> back

Feb 06 22:33:06 <MrSquared> second

Feb 06 22:33:19 <ToArmsMHearties> though it was kinda lulzworthy to see him ragequit... sorry, the anon in me.

Feb 06 22:33:26 <kusanagi> ok, vote to adjourn. we can continue the discussion postmeeting

Feb 06 22:33:35 <Bosun> aye

Feb 06 22:33:38 * HariSeldon (webchat@56-54-210-158.static.mdsn.wi.charter.com) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 22:33:41 <MrSquared> aye

Feb 06 22:33:42 <kusanagi> ToArmsMHearties, for you, maybe. that's my state's rep

Feb 06 22:33:44 <mildbeard> aye

Feb 06 22:33:50 <Bosun> another cheesehead

Feb 06 22:33:54 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:34:01 <ToArmsMHearties> we could have our own pnc meeting :P

Feb 06 22:34:02 <HariSeldon> ARR!!!

Feb 06 22:34:32 <Bosun> we be adjourned

Feb 06 22:34:34 <ToArmsMHearties> kusanagi: I know

Feb 06 22:34:37 <HariSeldon> what have I missed?

Feb 06 22:34:43 <kusanagi> the meeting

Feb 06 22:34:43 <kusanagi> lol

Feb 06 22:34:45 <kusanagi> Rush,

Feb 06 22:34:49 <stubuntu> haha

Feb 06 22:34:50 <HariSeldon> well, I know that

Feb 06 22:34:52 <Bosun> Tell us about the ACLU meeting

Feb 06 22:34:54 <OyajiVyse> meeting adjourned, thank you all for showing up

PNC 2/6/13

2013-02-07T05:22:47Z

Kusanagi: /* ::PNC Meeting Agenda:: */

=PNC Meeting Agenda=
::'''--- 2/6/2013 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://uspirates.org/wiki/PNC_2/6/13

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*Attending

**Zacqary Adam Green, New York
**Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin
**Kyle DeVore, Oregon
**Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts
**Bradley Hall, Florida

*Excused

**none

*Unexcused

**Georgia
**California
**Washington

*Probation

**Oklahoma

==== 1.2 - At-Large Members of the PNC ====

*Nick Desalvio, Maryland

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====
*Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, Captain
*Caleb Langeslag,MN, First Officer
*Daniel Gorski, NY, Quartermaster

==== 1.4 - Other Attendees ====
Morgan Thompson, Wisconsin
Stuart Gavin, Wisconsin
Steven Smith, Florida

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting called to order at: 09:01 pm EST
*Meeting chaired by Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Secretary for this meeting is Daniel Gorski
*Quorum is established: 4 out of 8 Members present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_1/9/13

=== 4 - REPORTS ===

==== 4.1 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====

*Meeting to discuss Open Formats Standard and Pirate Party Website
**Tuesday, February 12, 2013 at 9 pm EDT

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===
*Vote to remove Oklahoma from Probationary status to observer
**Vote passed, 3 for, 1 against.
**Effective immediately, Oklahoma is put on observer status.

=== - AOB - ===
*PNC Bylaws revisions put forth for consideration
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B38EoA_8gSTeUW8xRUVGNHZNbzA/edit?usp=sharing

*Possible asynchronous meeting discussed

*Next meeting: February 20th at 9PM EST
*Meeting closed: 10:34 pm EST

=== - Logs of the Meeting - ===

Feb 06 21:01:19 <kusanagi> Ok everyone, please state your full name and state.

Feb 06 21:01:29 <kusanagi> Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, Capt.

Feb 06 21:01:33 <Zacqary> Zacqary Adam Green, NY

Feb 06 21:01:39 <MrSquared> Kyle DeVore, Oregon

Feb 06 21:01:53 <Bosun> Joseph T. Klein Wisconsin

Feb 06 21:02:01 <itspara> Nick, Maryland Observer

Feb 06 21:02:06 <OyajiVyse> Daniel Gorski, NY, QM

Feb 06 21:02:08 <kusanagi> itspara, full name

Feb 06 21:02:20 <itspara> *nick desalvio

Feb 06 21:02:34 <itspara> Sorry about that captain

Feb 06 21:02:35 <CalebLangeslag> Caleb Langeslag, MN, First Officer

Feb 06 21:02:44 <ToArmsMHearties> my name be Morgan Thompson, and I be here from Wisconsin.

Feb 06 21:02:47 <ToArmsMHearties> :D

Feb 06 21:03:09 <kusanagi> to clarify for the record, Bosun is the WI rep, correct?

Feb 06 21:03:26 * stubuntu (~stuartjam@65.29.rlr.yh) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 21:03:30 <Bosun> Always a spare cheesehead. Yes I am rep. official.

Feb 06 21:03:40 <stubuntu> more spare cheese

Feb 06 21:03:40 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:03:42 <kusanagi> awesome

Feb 06 21:03:43 <Zacqary> Just in case it's not cheesy enough

Feb 06 21:03:58 <kusanagi> stubuntu, identify for the record please

Feb 06 21:04:31 <kusanagi> and tonight's agenda is above. the reps: do you all agree to it?

Feb 06 21:04:44 <Zacqary> Yep

Feb 06 21:05:05 <Rush> Sure

Feb 06 21:05:15 <stubuntu> stuart gavin. wisconsin

Feb 06 21:05:16 <Bosun> ok

Feb 06 21:05:22 <CalebLangeslag> As well as the minutes?

Feb 06 21:05:25 <kusanagi> Rush, identify for the record

Feb 06 21:05:26 <CalebLangeslag> (of the last meeting)

Feb 06 21:05:36 <Bosun> see three cheeseheads

Feb 06 21:05:38 <kusanagi> was getting to that

Feb 06 21:06:52 <MrSquared> yep

Feb 06 21:07:37 <Rush> Bradley Hall, Florida, FLPP Chairman

Feb 06 21:08:14 <kusanagi> reps, do you agree with the minutes of the last meeting?

Feb 06 21:08:21 <Zacqary> Yep

Feb 06 21:08:28 <Bosun> Yep

Feb 06 21:08:30 <MrSquared> yes

Feb 06 21:08:38 <Rush> Yes

Feb 06 21:10:18 <kusanagi> awesome. so, let's kick this off.

Feb 06 21:10:37 <kusanagi> CalebLangeslag, IT committee report?

Feb 06 21:11:34 <CalebLangeslag> None. There shall be an IT committee meeting next week on
Tuesday (9pm Eastern) regarding the discussion of an Open Formats Standard, as well as final website tweaks, to finally get the website done and released.

Feb 06 21:11:42 <CalebLangeslag> I'll send out an IT meeting notice within the hour

Feb 06 21:12:18 <CalebLangeslag> That is all

Feb 06 21:12:50 <kusanagi> Awesome. on to the agenda item

Feb 06 21:13:38 <kusanagi> I'm sure you all know that PPOK has been out of the PNC on
probation for a while. I've tried to contact Marcus about this and have gotten no response.

Feb 06 21:14:30 <kusanagi> PPOK is long overdue for removal from probationary status to observer status

Feb 06 21:15:04 <kusanagi> Anyone like to make the motion to vote on removal/

Feb 06 21:15:11 <Bosun> so moved

Feb 06 21:15:52 <kusanagi> Seconds?

Feb 06 21:16:20 <kusanagi> ping Rush MrSquared Zacqary

Feb 06 21:16:29 <MrSquared> second

Feb 06 21:17:31 <OyajiVyse> all in favor?

Feb 06 21:17:35 <kusanagi> Vote now to remove the Pirate Party of Oklahoma from Probationary status to Observer status in the Pirate National Committee.

Feb 06 21:17:50 <kusanagi> Aye or Nay

Feb 06 21:18:09 <Bosun> aye

Feb 06 21:18:13 <Zacqary> aye

Feb 06 21:18:15 <MrSquared> aye

Feb 06 21:18:17 <Rush> nay

Feb 06 21:19:13 <kusanagi> Vote called.

Feb 06 21:19:23 <CalebLangeslag> The aye's have it

Feb 06 21:19:37 <CalebLangeslag> 3 for, 1 against

Feb 06 21:19:39 <kusanagi> Vote passed 3-1

Feb 06 21:20:46 <kusanagi> Ok, so PPOK is now observer status.

Feb 06 21:21:14 <kusanagi> Moving on to AOB.

Feb 06 21:21:46 * ToArmsMHearties coughs

Feb 06 21:21:57 <kusanagi> go ahead

Feb 06 21:22:44 <ToArmsMHearties> have you looked over my suggestions on reorganizing the Constitution (which are actually the same as bylaws, etc. etc.)

Feb 06 21:23:14 <kusanagi> I have, to some degree. Not as much as I'd like, as a few things have come up

Feb 06 21:23:25 <ToArmsMHearties> k

Feb 06 21:23:35 <CalebLangeslag> Do have a public link or anything?

Feb 06 21:23:43 <ToArmsMHearties> umm

Feb 06 21:23:47 <ToArmsMHearties> yeah. hang on

Feb 06 21:24:02 <ToArmsMHearties> it's in my Google Drive

Feb 06 21:24:36 <ToArmsMHearties> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B38EoA_8gSTeUW8xRUVGNHZNbzA/edit?usp=sharing

Feb 06 21:24:41 <CalebLangeslag> If it's plaintext, you can always just paste it to piratenpad.de

Feb 06 21:24:52 <ToArmsMHearties> it's uhh... not.

Feb 06 21:25:01 <narrenburg> It's LibreOffice.

Feb 06 21:25:03 <narrenburg> I remember.

Feb 06 21:25:06 <narrenburg> [Sorry for speaking.]

Feb 06 21:25:13 <ToArmsMHearties> right.

Feb 06 21:25:37 <kusanagi> narrenburg, please identify for the record

Feb 06 21:25:49 <narrenburg> Steven Smith, FL, youth member

Feb 06 21:26:10 <CalebLangeslag> I can reshare it as a PDF if desired.

Feb 06 21:26:27 <kusanagi> that probably would be best

Feb 06 21:26:30 <ToArmsMHearties> so can I...

Feb 06 21:26:32 <ToArmsMHearties> ;)

Feb 06 21:26:48 <ToArmsMHearties> it's fine. I'm just a bit ADD at the moment.

Feb 06 21:27:09 <kusanagi> it's fine, also open floor

Feb 06 21:27:46 <ToArmsMHearties> I have it as a Google Doc, too, but the formatting didn't all take.

Feb 06 21:30:34 * missle59 (~androirc@70.57.oqu.zp) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 21:30:36 <ToArmsMHearties> I did notice also the text " At least two delegates from each State Pirate Party which meets the qualifications set forth in Art. III §2, hereinafter referred to as Representatives. A State which sends Representatives to the PNC shall be considered a Member State with Representation in the PNC for the purposes of this document.

Feb 06 21:30:48 <ToArmsMHearties> which apparently suddenly appeared

Feb 06 21:31:04 <kusanagi> That is incorrect, only 1 was supposed to be written in there

Feb 06 21:31:12 <kusanagi> also, piratenpad just crashed

Feb 06 21:31:12 <CalebLangeslag> PDF: http://uspirates.org/Pirate_Constitution_annotated.pdf

Feb 06 21:31:14 <ToArmsMHearties> according to kusanagi, with whom I've been... yeah.

Feb 06 21:31:43 <ToArmsMHearties> beat me to it.

Feb 06 21:31:57 <CalebLangeslag> The power of SSH!

Feb 06 21:32:03 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:32:19 <ToArmsMHearties> THE POWER OF OPENSSH COMPELS YOU

Feb 06 21:32:21 <ToArmsMHearties> sorry

Feb 06 21:32:33 <Rush> I ssh'd into a coffee maker once

Feb 06 21:32:43 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:33:01 <Bosun> Was it running NetBSD?

Feb 06 21:33:55 <CalebLangeslag> If Mozilla would implement HTCPCP, then I could be accessing my coffee pot from a web browser https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46647

Feb 06 21:33:56 <ToArmsMHearties> anyway, my changes reorganize the document to a standard format, and the only real addition is the citation of a parliamentary reference. Also, I changed the name from Constitution to Bylaws, since the terms (legally speaking) are interchangeable.

Feb 06 21:34:45 <ToArmsMHearties> what you have as "bylaws" are more appropriately called Special Rules of Order.

Feb 06 21:35:20 <ToArmsMHearties> and what that means is they supersede RONR where they have force.

Feb 06 21:35:43 <ToArmsMHearties> but are beneath the level of the bylaws.

Feb 06 21:36:26 * kusanagi nods

Feb 06 21:37:14 * ToArmsMHearties was a card-carrying member of the National Association of Parliamentarians from 2006-10

Feb 06 21:38:03 <ToArmsMHearties> I really need to get back in to that, but it's something for when I have more time.

Feb 06 21:38:46 <ToArmsMHearties> they went and published a new version on me, too. :P

Feb 06 21:39:02 <kusanagi> Just when you had your back turned

Feb 06 21:39:08 <ToArmsMHearties> lol yep

Feb 06 21:39:46 <kusanagi> I was thinking of working on going through everything with the old constitution on Sunday, at about 9pm

Feb 06 21:40:01 <kusanagi> Or maybe Monday, same time

Feb 06 21:40:22 <ToArmsMHearties> my classes start on Monday (but thankfully, they're online)

Feb 06 21:40:33 * Bosun (~Bosun@pzed-90-35-978-39.west.biz.rr.com) has left #pnc (Leaving)

Feb 06 21:40:49 <kusanagi> stubuntu, you're the alternate, right/

Feb 06 21:41:14 * Bosun (~Bosun@pzed-90-35-978-39.west.biz.rr.com) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 21:41:24 <kusanagi> or not, lol

Feb 06 21:41:27 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:41:30 * kusanagi gives voice to Bosun

Feb 06 21:41:40 <ToArmsMHearties> Bosun, did your brain asplode?

Feb 06 21:41:54 <kusanagi> I'll send something out on SAB about it when the meeting concludes.

Feb 06 21:42:04 <Bosun> No ? just a little steam leak.

Feb 06 21:42:08 <kusanagi> You all are getting the SAB emails, correct?

Feb 06 21:42:17 <ToArmsMHearties> am I?

Feb 06 21:42:19 <ToArmsMHearties> I dunno

Feb 06 21:42:20 <narrenburg> Well, I don't think I should.

Feb 06 21:42:47 <Bosun> It is public and ransparent.

Feb 06 21:42:50 <kusanagi> If you would like, I can grab the signup link

Feb 06 21:43:08 <Bosun> transparent ? bu somtimes ran-parent

Feb 06 21:44:04 <ToArmsMHearties> SAB? Student Activities Board? :P

Feb 06 21:44:10 <narrenburg> State Advisory.

Feb 06 21:44:13 <narrenburg> Board.

Feb 06 21:44:35 <ToArmsMHearties> I was kidding.

Feb 06 21:44:36 <ToArmsMHearties> :P

Feb 06 21:44:40 <narrenburg> Ogh.

Feb 06 21:44:49 <ToArmsMHearties> ;)

Feb 06 21:45:13 <ToArmsMHearties> again, it's been a VERY long day and I'm being TOTALLY Ay-Day-Day right now.

Feb 06 21:46:29 <kusanagi> http://sab.uspirates.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sab

Feb 06 21:46:36 <kusanagi> took me a bit, vut i found it

Feb 06 21:47:02 <ToArmsMHearties> vut are jou sayink, kusanagi? :D

Feb 06 21:47:26 <kusanagi> my fingers are going bad on me

Feb 06 21:47:28 <kusanagi> :(

Feb 06 21:47:31 <ToArmsMHearties> :(

Feb 06 21:47:35 <ToArmsMHearties> that's not good

Feb 06 21:47:48 <kusanagi> nah

Feb 06 21:47:57 <kusanagi> it's all-right though, i'll deal

Feb 06 21:48:26 <kusanagi> Anyone have anything else to discuss?

Feb 06 21:48:47 <Zacqary> Yeah, um...are we really going to codify RONR in the bylaws?

Feb 06 21:49:01 <Zacqary> Given the fact that we're exploring doing meeting asynchronously?

Feb 06 21:49:06 <Bosun> As I posted on SAB ? Wisconsin incorporated as a coop

Feb 06 21:49:15 <stubuntu> woohoo!

Feb 06 21:49:25 <kusanagi> Zacqary, it can be amended out

Feb 06 21:49:30 <ToArmsMHearties> Zacqary: you can make a special rule of order.

Feb 06 21:50:17 <Zacqary> Well, yeah, we can make special rules, but it seems like we'd be superseding almost all of them.

Feb 06 21:50:28 <ToArmsMHearties> nah

Feb 06 21:50:45 <Zacqary> Are you familiar with the Mutiny project?

Feb 06 21:50:47 <ToArmsMHearties> all you need are a few tweaks and it works fine.

Feb 06 21:50:52 <ToArmsMHearties> wat

Feb 06 21:51:10 <Zacqary> It's the asynchronous meeting system we're, um, supposed to be working on.

Feb 06 21:51:23 <Zacqary> Let me see if I can find where I described it...

Feb 06 21:51:25 <ToArmsMHearties> oic

Feb 06 21:51:51 <ToArmsMHearties> there. now I'm on the SAB list

Feb 06 21:52:03 <Zacqary> Second post in this thread: http://pirate-party.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10

Feb 06 21:53:24 <Zacqary> Applying RONR to that might be like building a sandcastle with a bulldozer.

Feb 06 21:53:42 <kusanagi> I don't think RONR could be applied to it

Feb 06 21:53:51 <ToArmsMHearties> you know, you could just use a teamspeex server.

Feb 06 21:53:53 <ToArmsMHearties> :P

Feb 06 21:54:07 <ToArmsMHearties> or skype.

Feb 06 21:54:08 <Zacqary> That's even LESS asynchronous than IRC.

Feb 06 21:54:24 <kusanagi> real-time meetings could use ronr, but async? no

Feb 06 21:54:31 <ToArmsMHearties> why so asynchronous?

Feb 06 21:54:37 <kusanagi> it would drive us all crazy

Feb 06 21:55:02 <ToArmsMHearties> no, I mean Y U RECREATE WHEEL?!?!

Feb 06 21:55:06 <Zacqary> Because barely anyone's coming to the real-time ones.

Feb 06 21:55:14 <Zacqary> It's not very convenient.

Feb 06 21:55:15 <CalebLangeslag> Isn't the problem with the German Pirate Party that they're completely async and just bringing up conflicting votes that both pass, and other various uncertainties or disputes; that nothing gets done?

Feb 06 21:55:21 <Zacqary> I've had to miss a ton of them.

Feb 06 21:55:29 <CalebLangeslag> But I could certainly be wrong

Feb 06 21:55:45 <ToArmsMHearties> yeah, I don't like the idea of an asynchronous meeting.

Feb 06 21:55:53 <kusanagi> ToArmsMHearties, that's really up to the reps

Feb 06 21:55:57 <ToArmsMHearties> yeah I know

Feb 06 21:56:11 <ToArmsMHearties> but I'm just giving you my opinion as the resident expert.

Feb 06 21:56:11 <kusanagi> and it would be heaps easier, really

Feb 06 21:56:12 <Bosun> We just need to intimidate the others in showing up.

Feb 06 21:56:18 <Zacqary> Isn't the problem with the United States Pirate Party that we just have a bunch of meetings for very little reason and nothing gets done?

Feb 06 21:56:33 <Bosun> We have less now.

Feb 06 21:56:37 <kusanagi> Zacqary, that was part of the problem

Feb 06 21:56:57 <kusanagi> Meetings have been reduced, and things are moving

Feb 06 21:57:53 <Zacqary> Well, tonight for example. What has been achieved that could not have been achieved asynchronously?

Feb 06 21:58:02 <narrenburg> Um...

Feb 06 21:58:59 <Bosun> We have plenty of cheeseheads. We can takover another state. :-p

Feb 06 21:59:05 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:59:10 <narrenburg> [A Time for Tony]

Feb 06 21:59:31 <ToArmsMHearties> give her a broadside, Mr. Ubuntu!

Feb 06 21:59:32 <ToArmsMHearties> :D

Feb 06 22:00:33 <Bosun> pst ? your queue stu

Feb 06 22:00:56 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:01:21 <kusanagi> Zacqary, you're right. We still don't have the platform up

Feb 06 22:01:43 <CalebLangeslag> Put together a proposal of a fair legally-tested approach of conducting asynchronous meetings

Feb 06 22:02:24 <Zacqary> A legally-tested approach?

Feb 06 22:02:26 <stubuntu> huh?

Feb 06 22:03:31 <CalebLangeslag> It's what RONR is; which provides a tested system of fairly conducting business

Feb 06 22:03:58 <Bosun> The invented wheel.

Feb 06 22:04:21 <Zacqary> Well, I have a proposal. It's not yet tested. So I'm gonna implement it. Then whoever wants to start using it can use it. And if it works, it works.

Feb 06 22:05:07 <CalebLangeslag> Is it written anywhere publicly accessible?

Feb 06 22:05:24 <Zacqary> I just copypasted it a few minutes ago

Feb 06 22:05:35 <Zacqary> Second post in this thread describes it: http://pirate-party.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10

Feb 06 22:05:48 <CalebLangeslag> Sorry for missing that

Feb 06 22:06:22 <Zacqary> kusanagi's already a supporter of it, and I think she's been pseudocoding it for the past week

Feb 06 22:06:25 <CalebLangeslag> Isn't Google Wave what you describe?

Feb 06 22:06:43 <CalebLangeslag> Because we could trial the idea of hosting an install

Feb 06 22:06:44 * missle59 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)

Feb 06 22:06:54 * missle59 (~androirc@70.57.oqu.zp) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 22:07:01 <CalebLangeslag> (just based upon the first 2 paragraphs, still reading)

Feb 06 22:07:08 <ToArmsMHearties> that doesn't address the issue of legal muster.

Feb 06 22:07:17 <CalebLangeslag> Correct

Feb 06 22:07:25 <Zacqary> Legal muster? We're pirates.

Feb 06 22:07:33 <CalebLangeslag> Legal pirates. :P

Feb 06 22:07:49 <CalebLangeslag> At least some of us. xP

Feb 06 22:07:52 <ToArmsMHearties> RONR is widely accepted and understood.

Feb 06 22:08:09 <Zacqary> So was phrenology.

Feb 06 22:08:24 <ToArmsMHearties> that's not a fair comparison

Feb 06 22:08:25 <CalebLangeslag> There of course could be provisions added, which may take time to form

Feb 06 22:09:04 <ToArmsMHearties> in a COURT OF LAW, RONR is widely accepted and understood. So if someone sues you, there's legal backup.

Feb 06 22:09:12 <Zacqary> ...so?

Feb 06 22:09:24 * ToArmsMHearties facepalms

Feb 06 22:09:27 <Zacqary> How does this apply to a bunch of activists deciding what to do?

Feb 06 22:10:00 <kusanagi> We're not activists.

Feb 06 22:10:02 <kusanagi> we're

Feb 06 22:10:09 <kusanagi> we're becoming politicians

Feb 06 22:10:32 <missle59> activist politicians?

Feb 06 22:10:48 <kusanagi> the pnc is becoming a legal entity

Feb 06 22:11:05 <kusanagi> and if something happens, the pnc (and officers) could be held legally liable.

Feb 06 22:11:11 <ToArmsMHearties> have you seen what damage can be done in a court of law if they decide you did something to unfairly deny the rights of a member?

Feb 06 22:11:14 <Zacqary> When is it becoming a legal entity?

Feb 06 22:11:18 <ToArmsMHearties> EXACTLY.

Feb 06 22:11:26 <kusanagi> enroute

Feb 06 22:11:26 <Bosun> At some point someone will sue our asses.

Feb 06 22:11:35 <ToArmsMHearties> the officers could be held PERSONALLY liable.

Feb 06 22:11:48 <kusanagi> we need to correct the bylaws, then i can finish npo paperwork

Feb 06 22:11:53 <itspara> Kindof activist politicians.. though the greens are more of that

Feb 06 22:12:02 <itspara> Imo

Feb 06 22:12:20 <ToArmsMHearties> you really don't want to screw around with that.

Feb 06 22:12:20 <Zacqary> Why do we need to become an NPO at this stage?

Feb 06 22:12:31 <ToArmsMHearties> (not having legal backup like RONR, that is)

Feb 06 22:12:45 <itspara> Cause reasons

Feb 06 22:12:57 <kusanagi> because we're (both USPP and NYPP) need to control its assets

Feb 06 22:13:00 * mildbeard (~erik@hknv-28-026-620-99.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 22:13:15 <Zacqary> These assets being?

Feb 06 22:13:25 <kusanagi> the website, for one

Feb 06 22:13:26 <ToArmsMHearties> oh jeez, mildbeard came in. everybody hush.

Feb 06 22:13:30 <ToArmsMHearties> ;)

Feb 06 22:13:41 <CalebLangeslag> Money, servers, domains, website, etc

Feb 06 22:13:46 <ToArmsMHearties> yup

Feb 06 22:14:01 <itspara> Yeah

Feb 06 22:14:02 <ToArmsMHearties> gotta cover your assets.

Feb 06 22:14:10 <CalebLangeslag> At some point we'll also provide hosting and other services for emerging states, to facilitate the growth of the state parties

Feb 06 22:14:22 <kusanagi> In fact, PA already asked for that.

Feb 06 22:14:22 <Bosun> Contracts are made between legal entities.

Feb 06 22:14:31 <itspara> Plus pnc cant get any money without becoming shiny official and jumping through hoops

Feb 06 22:14:36 <mildbeard> sorry to be so late

Feb 06 22:14:46 <ToArmsMHearties> yeah, and the moment USPP makes a decision that a state party doesn't like, you can bet there will be a lawsuit.

Feb 06 22:14:53 <kusanagi> mildbeard, id for the record

Feb 06 22:14:54 <ToArmsMHearties> sooner or later.

Feb 06 22:15:03 * kusanagi gives voice to mildbeard

Feb 06 22:15:05 <mildbeard> Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts

Feb 06 22:16:27 <ToArmsMHearties> http://dl.openhandhelds.org/wiz/screenshots/zoltan.gif

Feb 06 22:16:45 <Bosun> Visions of Pirate Lawyer.

Feb 06 22:16:48 <ToArmsMHearties> :>

Feb 06 22:17:08 <Zacqary> So you're saying we've grown so large at this point that we cannot continue to grow without legally incorporating, thus giving us a whole TON of red tape to worry about?

Feb 06 22:17:11 <mildbeard> lmao

Feb 06 22:17:51 <kusanagi> red tape will be handled

Feb 06 22:18:07 <kusanagi> and to be honest, i'm fucking sick of not having access to USPP things

Feb 06 22:18:25 <kusanagi> i don't have a USPP email address, nor access to the former IT mailing address

Feb 06 22:18:37 <CalebLangeslag> We /still/ have no direct control over pirate-party.us even

Feb 06 22:18:54 <CalebLangeslag> I have to contact a person for the changes to even be made

Feb 06 22:18:55 <Zacqary> So basically you want to incorporate so that you can sue for the domains?

Feb 06 22:18:56 <kusanagi> i want USPP to own its shit, not handled by someone who's not available in WA

Feb 06 22:18:56 <ToArmsMHearties> :D

Feb 06 22:19:12 <kusanagi> including funds

Feb 06 22:19:12 * ToArmsMHearties agrees with kusanagi

Feb 06 22:19:14 <Bosun> Without a legal entity anyone who controls an asset can just take his/her ball home.

Feb 06 22:19:21 <kusanagi> \yes, Bosun

Feb 06 22:19:24 <CalebLangeslag> I don't think we'd be able to sue from incorporating AFTER the domain was already registered

Feb 06 22:19:27 * ToArmsMHearties agrees with Bosun

Feb 06 22:19:33 <kusanagi> And that has happened before

Feb 06 22:19:50 <ToArmsMHearties> I've seen it happen in county democratic parties.

Feb 06 22:19:58 <CalebLangeslag> We have uspirates.org which we do control; but pirate-party.us is an example of not having a legal structure to asset management

Feb 06 22:20:31 <Zacqary> And so legally incorporating is going to magically make everyone start cooperating and working together when they weren't before? Because if we can't get our shit together and be productive without a legal structure, are we really ready to handle having one at all?

Feb 06 22:20:59 <ToArmsMHearties> uhhhh

Feb 06 22:21:13 <ToArmsMHearties> society is BASED on a complex legal structure.

Feb 06 22:21:20 <narrenburg> The fact that we can't handle our stuff is somewhat irrelevant.

Feb 06 22:21:23 <Bosun> It is not a magic bullet, just a practical and real way to operate an organization.

Feb 06 22:21:27 <Zacqary> And that's working out great, isn't it?

Feb 06 22:21:35 <mildbeard> I think if USPP becomes a legally registered entity, we need a firm policy that we encourage members to obey the existing laws (e.g. monopoly copyright) even as we fight vigorously to change those unjust laws.

Feb 06 22:21:36 <narrenburg> No matter what happens, to move on, we have to become more legal.

Feb 06 22:21:45 <ToArmsMHearties> democracy is the worst kind of goverment. except for all the other ones.

Feb 06 22:21:46 <stubuntu> it also allows us to put things in the name of the part instead of its officers

Feb 06 22:21:54 <kusanagi> mildbeard, without a doubt.

Feb 06 22:22:28 <ToArmsMHearties> (yeah I just quoted Winston Churchill. deal with it)

Feb 06 22:22:28 <mildbeard> kusanagi, I'd want to consider voting it into the constitution.

Feb 06 22:23:06 <Bosun> I had to chain stubuntu to a chair to get him to sighn our corporate charter.

Feb 06 22:23:18 <Bosun> (not really)

Feb 06 22:23:20 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:23:25 <kusanagi> mildbeard, since the constitution is in the state of.. duress it's in, would that be feasible to wait?

Feb 06 22:23:31 <ToArmsMHearties> I would've signed it! :P

Feb 06 22:23:38 <ToArmsMHearties> I was in Milwaukee today, too.

Feb 06 22:23:50 <mildbeard> I don't know of any problem in the constitution, but it's not urgent until we incorporate.

Feb 06 22:24:00 <Bosun> Tis filed with the state.

Feb 06 22:24:28 <ToArmsMHearties> mildbeard: can't incorporate without the bylaws in place.

Feb 06 22:24:43 <Bosun> Nonsense.

Feb 06 22:24:44 <ToArmsMHearties> (as I explained earlier, constitution and bylaws are legally the same thing)

Feb 06 22:24:47 <mildbeard> bylaws are a disaster.

Feb 06 22:25:05 <Bosun> You just need the basic articles of incorporation.

Feb 06 22:25:07 <Zacqary> So is the PNC. None of us even agree what the hell this thing is or what it's for. And we're going to incorporate?

Feb 06 22:25:19 <narrenburg> Mildbeard, do you have Mr. Thompson's constitution edit?

Feb 06 22:25:23 <mildbeard> ToArmsMHearties, we have a separate bylaws and constitution. They have a distinct meaning.

Feb 06 22:25:32 <mildbeard> narrenburg, no

Feb 06 22:25:35 <ToArmsMHearties> uhhh, no, they don't

Feb 06 22:25:43 <narrenburg> May I PM to you?

Feb 06 22:25:46 <mildbeard> sure

Feb 06 22:26:03 <kusanagi> mildbeard, the constitution is bad too. ToArmsMHearties went over both with me

Feb 06 22:26:14 <ToArmsMHearties> apparently you missed the part where I mentioned I was a card-carrying member of the National Association of Parliamentarians for 4 years.

Feb 06 22:26:24 <kusanagi> he just logged in

Feb 06 22:26:37 <ToArmsMHearties> oh yeah

Feb 06 22:26:38 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:26:40 <ToArmsMHearties> sorry

Feb 06 22:26:55 <ToArmsMHearties> guess this is the time to mention all that, then. :P

Feb 06 22:27:11 <kusanagi> Zacqary, by agreeing to the constitution, however broken it is, the state parties agreed that this was the organizing and governing body of the mpnc.

Feb 06 22:27:16 <kusanagi> pnc, even

Feb 06 22:27:42 <kusanagi> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/Pirate_National_Committee_(PNC)/Constitution#Section_1:_Purpose

Feb 06 22:27:44 <Bosun> We can fix it.

Feb 06 22:28:01 <Bosun> Agile party development.

Feb 06 22:28:07 <kusanagi> EXACTLY

Feb 06 22:28:09 <ToArmsMHearties> we have the technology

Feb 06 22:28:25 <Zacqary> And incorporating will make us SO more agile.

Feb 06 22:28:26 <ToArmsMHearties> better, stronger, faster

Feb 06 22:28:34 <Bosun> No cyborgs though.

Feb 06 22:28:41 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:28:46 <Zacqary> We'll be SO flexible and able to adapt SO quickly with everything set in fucking legal stone.

Feb 06 22:28:51 <kusanagi> you know kusanagi is the name of a cyborg

Feb 06 22:28:53 <ToArmsMHearties> glad SOMEONE got the reference. I was starting to feel old

Feb 06 22:29:01 <kusanagi> >.>

Feb 06 22:29:16 <kusanagi> Zacqary, we just need to be in compliance

Feb 06 22:29:21 <Zacqary> With what?

Feb 06 22:29:28 <kusanagi> with the legal parts

Feb 06 22:29:33 <kusanagi> we can adapt with it

Feb 06 22:29:39 <ToArmsMHearties> Zacqary: we'll be a great party if someone sues the pants off of us and drains all of our resources.

Feb 06 22:29:54 <mildbeard> I am OK with some of the reforms I've seen to the current constitution if they make it legally stronger. I haven't seen a reform that changes the underlying purpose of the document so I'm OK with it.

Feb 06 22:30:14 <Bosun> Zacqary is a rebel and incorporation is establishment.

Feb 06 22:30:24 <Zacqary> Oh fuck off.

Feb 06 22:30:30 <kusanagi> mildbeard, we're going to go over everything on either sunday or monday to clean up and make the required changes

Feb 06 22:30:32 <CalebLangeslag> You know, the law, campaign finance law, since politics is serious business and competition is going to do everything to shoot you down legally

Feb 06 22:30:45 <ToArmsMHearties> can't do that right now, Zacqary. my DP is at work.

Feb 06 22:30:48 <mildbeard> that's fine but the PNC has to vote on any changes.

Feb 06 22:30:54 <kusanagi> mildbeard, yes

Feb 06 22:31:23 <mildbeard> ok np

Feb 06 22:31:25 * Zacqary has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 18.0.1/20130116073211])

Feb 06 22:31:33 <mildbeard> brb

Feb 06 22:31:44 <MrSquared> i g2g guys

Feb 06 22:31:53 <kusanagi> MrSquared, wait

Feb 06 22:31:57 <MrSquared> ok

Feb 06 22:31:58 <Bosun> I did not mean to piss him off. :-(

Feb 06 22:32:09 <kusanagi> we can continue this in post-meeting. want to call it, guys?

Feb 06 22:32:15 <kusanagi> Bosun, it's fine, i'll speak with him

Feb 06 22:32:26 <Bosun> move adjourn

Feb 06 22:32:32 <ToArmsMHearties> he was being confrontational about it. I just reflected his attitude.

Feb 06 22:32:55 <kusanagi> there's been a move to adjourn

Feb 06 22:32:59 <kusanagi> any seconds

Feb 06 22:33:01 <mildbeard> back

Feb 06 22:33:06 <MrSquared> second

Feb 06 22:33:19 <ToArmsMHearties> though it was kinda lulzworthy to see him ragequit... sorry, the anon in me.

Feb 06 22:33:26 <kusanagi> ok, vote to adjourn. we can continue the discussion postmeeting

Feb 06 22:33:35 <Bosun> aye

Feb 06 22:33:38 * HariSeldon (webchat@56-54-210-158.static.mdsn.wi.charter.com) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 22:33:41 <MrSquared> aye

Feb 06 22:33:42 <kusanagi> ToArmsMHearties, for you, maybe. that's my state's rep

Feb 06 22:33:44 <mildbeard> aye

Feb 06 22:33:50 <Bosun> another cheesehead

Feb 06 22:33:54 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:34:01 <ToArmsMHearties> we could have our own pnc meeting :P

Feb 06 22:34:02 <HariSeldon> ARR!!!

Feb 06 22:34:32 <Bosun> we be adjourned

Feb 06 22:34:34 <ToArmsMHearties> kusanagi: I know

Feb 06 22:34:37 <HariSeldon> what have I missed?

Feb 06 22:34:43 <kusanagi> the meeting

Feb 06 22:34:43 <kusanagi> lol

Feb 06 22:34:45 <kusanagi> Rush,

Feb 06 22:34:49 <stubuntu> haha

Feb 06 22:34:50 <HariSeldon> well, I know that

Feb 06 22:34:52 <Bosun> Tell us about the ACLU meeting

Feb 06 22:34:54 <OyajiVyse> meeting adjourned, thank you all for showing up

PNC 2/6/13

2013-02-07T05:21:52Z

Kusanagi:

=::PNC Meeting Agenda::=
::'''--- 2/6/2013 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://uspirates.org/wiki/PNC_2/6/13

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*Attending

**Zacqary Adam Green, New York
**Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin
**Kyle DeVore, Oregon
**Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts
**Bradley Hall, Florida

*Excused

**none

*Unexcused

**Georgia
**California
**Washington

*Probation

**Oklahoma

==== 1.2 - At-Large Members of the PNC ====

*Nick Desalvio, Maryland

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====
*Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, Captain
*Caleb Langeslag,MN, First Officer
*Daniel Gorski, NY, Quartermaster

==== 1.4 - Other Attendees ====
Morgan Thompson, Wisconsin
Stuart Gavin, Wisconsin
Steven Smith, Florida

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting called to order at: 09:01 pm EST
*Meeting chaired by Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Secretary for this meeting is Daniel Gorski
*Quorum is established: 4 out of 8 Members present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_1/9/13

=== 4 - REPORTS ===

==== 4.1 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====

*Meeting to discuss Open Formats Standard and Pirate Party Website
**Tuesday, February 12, 2013 at 9 pm EDT

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===
*Vote to remove Oklahoma from Probationary status to observer
**Vote passed, 3 for, 1 against.
**Effective immediately, Oklahoma is put on observer status.

=== - AOB - ===
*PNC Bylaws revisions put forth for consideration
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B38EoA_8gSTeUW8xRUVGNHZNbzA/edit?usp=sharing

*Possible asynchronous meeting discussed

*Next meeting: February 20th at 9PM EST
*Meeting closed: 10:34 pm EST

=== - Logs of the Meeting - ===

Feb 06 21:01:19 <kusanagi> Ok everyone, please state your full name and state.

Feb 06 21:01:29 <kusanagi> Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, Capt.

Feb 06 21:01:33 <Zacqary> Zacqary Adam Green, NY

Feb 06 21:01:39 <MrSquared> Kyle DeVore, Oregon

Feb 06 21:01:53 <Bosun> Joseph T. Klein Wisconsin

Feb 06 21:02:01 <itspara> Nick, Maryland Observer

Feb 06 21:02:06 <OyajiVyse> Daniel Gorski, NY, QM

Feb 06 21:02:08 <kusanagi> itspara, full name

Feb 06 21:02:20 <itspara> *nick desalvio

Feb 06 21:02:34 <itspara> Sorry about that captain

Feb 06 21:02:35 <CalebLangeslag> Caleb Langeslag, MN, First Officer

Feb 06 21:02:44 <ToArmsMHearties> my name be Morgan Thompson, and I be here from Wisconsin.

Feb 06 21:02:47 <ToArmsMHearties> :D

Feb 06 21:03:09 <kusanagi> to clarify for the record, Bosun is the WI rep, correct?

Feb 06 21:03:26 * stubuntu (~stuartjam@65.29.rlr.yh) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 21:03:30 <Bosun> Always a spare cheesehead. Yes I am rep. official.

Feb 06 21:03:40 <stubuntu> more spare cheese

Feb 06 21:03:40 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:03:42 <kusanagi> awesome

Feb 06 21:03:43 <Zacqary> Just in case it's not cheesy enough

Feb 06 21:03:58 <kusanagi> stubuntu, identify for the record please

Feb 06 21:04:31 <kusanagi> and tonight's agenda is above. the reps: do you all agree to it?

Feb 06 21:04:44 <Zacqary> Yep

Feb 06 21:05:05 <Rush> Sure

Feb 06 21:05:15 <stubuntu> stuart gavin. wisconsin

Feb 06 21:05:16 <Bosun> ok

Feb 06 21:05:22 <CalebLangeslag> As well as the minutes?

Feb 06 21:05:25 <kusanagi> Rush, identify for the record

Feb 06 21:05:26 <CalebLangeslag> (of the last meeting)

Feb 06 21:05:36 <Bosun> see three cheeseheads

Feb 06 21:05:38 <kusanagi> was getting to that

Feb 06 21:06:52 <MrSquared> yep

Feb 06 21:07:37 <Rush> Bradley Hall, Florida, FLPP Chairman

Feb 06 21:08:14 <kusanagi> reps, do you agree with the minutes of the last meeting?

Feb 06 21:08:21 <Zacqary> Yep

Feb 06 21:08:28 <Bosun> Yep

Feb 06 21:08:30 <MrSquared> yes

Feb 06 21:08:38 <Rush> Yes

Feb 06 21:10:18 <kusanagi> awesome. so, let's kick this off.

Feb 06 21:10:37 <kusanagi> CalebLangeslag, IT committee report?

Feb 06 21:11:34 <CalebLangeslag> None. There shall be an IT committee meeting next week on
Tuesday (9pm Eastern) regarding the discussion of an Open Formats Standard, as well as final website tweaks, to finally get the website done and released.

Feb 06 21:11:42 <CalebLangeslag> I'll send out an IT meeting notice within the hour

Feb 06 21:12:18 <CalebLangeslag> That is all

Feb 06 21:12:50 <kusanagi> Awesome. on to the agenda item

Feb 06 21:13:38 <kusanagi> I'm sure you all know that PPOK has been out of the PNC on
probation for a while. I've tried to contact Marcus about this and have gotten no response.

Feb 06 21:14:30 <kusanagi> PPOK is long overdue for removal from probationary status to observer status

Feb 06 21:15:04 <kusanagi> Anyone like to make the motion to vote on removal/

Feb 06 21:15:11 <Bosun> so moved

Feb 06 21:15:52 <kusanagi> Seconds?

Feb 06 21:16:20 <kusanagi> ping Rush MrSquared Zacqary

Feb 06 21:16:29 <MrSquared> second

Feb 06 21:17:31 <OyajiVyse> all in favor?

Feb 06 21:17:35 <kusanagi> Vote now to remove the Pirate Party of Oklahoma from Probationary status to Observer status in the Pirate National Committee.

Feb 06 21:17:50 <kusanagi> Aye or Nay

Feb 06 21:18:09 <Bosun> aye

Feb 06 21:18:13 <Zacqary> aye

Feb 06 21:18:15 <MrSquared> aye

Feb 06 21:18:17 <Rush> nay

Feb 06 21:19:13 <kusanagi> Vote called.

Feb 06 21:19:23 <CalebLangeslag> The aye's have it

Feb 06 21:19:37 <CalebLangeslag> 3 for, 1 against

Feb 06 21:19:39 <kusanagi> Vote passed 3-1

Feb 06 21:20:46 <kusanagi> Ok, so PPOK is now observer status.

Feb 06 21:21:14 <kusanagi> Moving on to AOB.

Feb 06 21:21:46 * ToArmsMHearties coughs

Feb 06 21:21:57 <kusanagi> go ahead

Feb 06 21:22:44 <ToArmsMHearties> have you looked over my suggestions on reorganizing the Constitution (which are actually the same as bylaws, etc. etc.)

Feb 06 21:23:14 <kusanagi> I have, to some degree. Not as much as I'd like, as a few things have come up

Feb 06 21:23:25 <ToArmsMHearties> k

Feb 06 21:23:35 <CalebLangeslag> Do have a public link or anything?

Feb 06 21:23:43 <ToArmsMHearties> umm

Feb 06 21:23:47 <ToArmsMHearties> yeah. hang on

Feb 06 21:24:02 <ToArmsMHearties> it's in my Google Drive

Feb 06 21:24:36 <ToArmsMHearties> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B38EoA_8gSTeUW8xRUVGNHZNbzA/edit?usp=sharing

Feb 06 21:24:41 <CalebLangeslag> If it's plaintext, you can always just paste it to piratenpad.de

Feb 06 21:24:52 <ToArmsMHearties> it's uhh... not.

Feb 06 21:25:01 <narrenburg> It's LibreOffice.

Feb 06 21:25:03 <narrenburg> I remember.

Feb 06 21:25:06 <narrenburg> [Sorry for speaking.]

Feb 06 21:25:13 <ToArmsMHearties> right.

Feb 06 21:25:37 <kusanagi> narrenburg, please identify for the record

Feb 06 21:25:49 <narrenburg> Steven Smith, FL, youth member

Feb 06 21:26:10 <CalebLangeslag> I can reshare it as a PDF if desired.

Feb 06 21:26:27 <kusanagi> that probably would be best

Feb 06 21:26:30 <ToArmsMHearties> so can I...

Feb 06 21:26:32 <ToArmsMHearties> ;)

Feb 06 21:26:48 <ToArmsMHearties> it's fine. I'm just a bit ADD at the moment.

Feb 06 21:27:09 <kusanagi> it's fine, also open floor

Feb 06 21:27:46 <ToArmsMHearties> I have it as a Google Doc, too, but the formatting didn't all take.

Feb 06 21:30:34 * missle59 (~androirc@70.57.oqu.zp) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 21:30:36 <ToArmsMHearties> I did notice also the text " At least two delegates from each State Pirate Party which meets the qualifications set forth in Art. III §2, hereinafter referred to as Representatives. A State which sends Representatives to the PNC shall be considered a Member State with Representation in the PNC for the purposes of this document.

Feb 06 21:30:48 <ToArmsMHearties> which apparently suddenly appeared

Feb 06 21:31:04 <kusanagi> That is incorrect, only 1 was supposed to be written in there

Feb 06 21:31:12 <kusanagi> also, piratenpad just crashed

Feb 06 21:31:12 <CalebLangeslag> PDF: http://uspirates.org/Pirate_Constitution_annotated.pdf

Feb 06 21:31:14 <ToArmsMHearties> according to kusanagi, with whom I've been... yeah.

Feb 06 21:31:43 <ToArmsMHearties> beat me to it.

Feb 06 21:31:57 <CalebLangeslag> The power of SSH!

Feb 06 21:32:03 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:32:19 <ToArmsMHearties> THE POWER OF OPENSSH COMPELS YOU

Feb 06 21:32:21 <ToArmsMHearties> sorry

Feb 06 21:32:33 <Rush> I ssh'd into a coffee maker once

Feb 06 21:32:43 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:33:01 <Bosun> Was it running NetBSD?

Feb 06 21:33:55 <CalebLangeslag> If Mozilla would implement HTCPCP, then I could be accessing my coffee pot from a web browser https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46647

Feb 06 21:33:56 <ToArmsMHearties> anyway, my changes reorganize the document to a standard format, and the only real addition is the citation of a parliamentary reference. Also, I changed the name from Constitution to Bylaws, since the terms (legally speaking) are interchangeable.

Feb 06 21:34:45 <ToArmsMHearties> what you have as "bylaws" are more appropriately called Special Rules of Order.

Feb 06 21:35:20 <ToArmsMHearties> and what that means is they supersede RONR where they have force.

Feb 06 21:35:43 <ToArmsMHearties> but are beneath the level of the bylaws.

Feb 06 21:36:26 * kusanagi nods

Feb 06 21:37:14 * ToArmsMHearties was a card-carrying member of the National Association of Parliamentarians from 2006-10

Feb 06 21:38:03 <ToArmsMHearties> I really need to get back in to that, but it's something for when I have more time.

Feb 06 21:38:46 <ToArmsMHearties> they went and published a new version on me, too. :P

Feb 06 21:39:02 <kusanagi> Just when you had your back turned

Feb 06 21:39:08 <ToArmsMHearties> lol yep

Feb 06 21:39:46 <kusanagi> I was thinking of working on going through everything with the old constitution on Sunday, at about 9pm

Feb 06 21:40:01 <kusanagi> Or maybe Monday, same time

Feb 06 21:40:22 <ToArmsMHearties> my classes start on Monday (but thankfully, they're online)

Feb 06 21:40:33 * Bosun (~Bosun@pzed-90-35-978-39.west.biz.rr.com) has left #pnc (Leaving)

Feb 06 21:40:49 <kusanagi> stubuntu, you're the alternate, right/

Feb 06 21:41:14 * Bosun (~Bosun@pzed-90-35-978-39.west.biz.rr.com) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 21:41:24 <kusanagi> or not, lol

Feb 06 21:41:27 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:41:30 * kusanagi gives voice to Bosun

Feb 06 21:41:40 <ToArmsMHearties> Bosun, did your brain asplode?

Feb 06 21:41:54 <kusanagi> I'll send something out on SAB about it when the meeting concludes.

Feb 06 21:42:04 <Bosun> No ? just a little steam leak.

Feb 06 21:42:08 <kusanagi> You all are getting the SAB emails, correct?

Feb 06 21:42:17 <ToArmsMHearties> am I?

Feb 06 21:42:19 <ToArmsMHearties> I dunno

Feb 06 21:42:20 <narrenburg> Well, I don't think I should.

Feb 06 21:42:47 <Bosun> It is public and ransparent.

Feb 06 21:42:50 <kusanagi> If you would like, I can grab the signup link

Feb 06 21:43:08 <Bosun> transparent ? bu somtimes ran-parent

Feb 06 21:44:04 <ToArmsMHearties> SAB? Student Activities Board? :P

Feb 06 21:44:10 <narrenburg> State Advisory.

Feb 06 21:44:13 <narrenburg> Board.

Feb 06 21:44:35 <ToArmsMHearties> I was kidding.

Feb 06 21:44:36 <ToArmsMHearties> :P

Feb 06 21:44:40 <narrenburg> Ogh.

Feb 06 21:44:49 <ToArmsMHearties> ;)

Feb 06 21:45:13 <ToArmsMHearties> again, it's been a VERY long day and I'm being TOTALLY Ay-Day-Day right now.

Feb 06 21:46:29 <kusanagi> http://sab.uspirates.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sab

Feb 06 21:46:36 <kusanagi> took me a bit, vut i found it

Feb 06 21:47:02 <ToArmsMHearties> vut are jou sayink, kusanagi? :D

Feb 06 21:47:26 <kusanagi> my fingers are going bad on me

Feb 06 21:47:28 <kusanagi> :(

Feb 06 21:47:31 <ToArmsMHearties> :(

Feb 06 21:47:35 <ToArmsMHearties> that's not good

Feb 06 21:47:48 <kusanagi> nah

Feb 06 21:47:57 <kusanagi> it's all-right though, i'll deal

Feb 06 21:48:26 <kusanagi> Anyone have anything else to discuss?

Feb 06 21:48:47 <Zacqary> Yeah, um...are we really going to codify RONR in the bylaws?

Feb 06 21:49:01 <Zacqary> Given the fact that we're exploring doing meeting asynchronously?

Feb 06 21:49:06 <Bosun> As I posted on SAB ? Wisconsin incorporated as a coop

Feb 06 21:49:15 <stubuntu> woohoo!

Feb 06 21:49:25 <kusanagi> Zacqary, it can be amended out

Feb 06 21:49:30 <ToArmsMHearties> Zacqary: you can make a special rule of order.

Feb 06 21:50:17 <Zacqary> Well, yeah, we can make special rules, but it seems like we'd be superseding almost all of them.

Feb 06 21:50:28 <ToArmsMHearties> nah

Feb 06 21:50:45 <Zacqary> Are you familiar with the Mutiny project?

Feb 06 21:50:47 <ToArmsMHearties> all you need are a few tweaks and it works fine.

Feb 06 21:50:52 <ToArmsMHearties> wat

Feb 06 21:51:10 <Zacqary> It's the asynchronous meeting system we're, um, supposed to be working on.

Feb 06 21:51:23 <Zacqary> Let me see if I can find where I described it...

Feb 06 21:51:25 <ToArmsMHearties> oic

Feb 06 21:51:51 <ToArmsMHearties> there. now I'm on the SAB list

Feb 06 21:52:03 <Zacqary> Second post in this thread: http://pirate-party.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10

Feb 06 21:53:24 <Zacqary> Applying RONR to that might be like building a sandcastle with a bulldozer.

Feb 06 21:53:42 <kusanagi> I don't think RONR could be applied to it

Feb 06 21:53:51 <ToArmsMHearties> you know, you could just use a teamspeex server.

Feb 06 21:53:53 <ToArmsMHearties> :P

Feb 06 21:54:07 <ToArmsMHearties> or skype.

Feb 06 21:54:08 <Zacqary> That's even LESS asynchronous than IRC.

Feb 06 21:54:24 <kusanagi> real-time meetings could use ronr, but async? no

Feb 06 21:54:31 <ToArmsMHearties> why so asynchronous?

Feb 06 21:54:37 <kusanagi> it would drive us all crazy

Feb 06 21:55:02 <ToArmsMHearties> no, I mean Y U RECREATE WHEEL?!?!

Feb 06 21:55:06 <Zacqary> Because barely anyone's coming to the real-time ones.

Feb 06 21:55:14 <Zacqary> It's not very convenient.

Feb 06 21:55:15 <CalebLangeslag> Isn't the problem with the German Pirate Party that they're completely async and just bringing up conflicting votes that both pass, and other various uncertainties or disputes; that nothing gets done?

Feb 06 21:55:21 <Zacqary> I've had to miss a ton of them.

Feb 06 21:55:29 <CalebLangeslag> But I could certainly be wrong

Feb 06 21:55:45 <ToArmsMHearties> yeah, I don't like the idea of an asynchronous meeting.

Feb 06 21:55:53 <kusanagi> ToArmsMHearties, that's really up to the reps

Feb 06 21:55:57 <ToArmsMHearties> yeah I know

Feb 06 21:56:11 <ToArmsMHearties> but I'm just giving you my opinion as the resident expert.

Feb 06 21:56:11 <kusanagi> and it would be heaps easier, really

Feb 06 21:56:12 <Bosun> We just need to intimidate the others in showing up.

Feb 06 21:56:18 <Zacqary> Isn't the problem with the United States Pirate Party that we just have a bunch of meetings for very little reason and nothing gets done?

Feb 06 21:56:33 <Bosun> We have less now.

Feb 06 21:56:37 <kusanagi> Zacqary, that was part of the problem

Feb 06 21:56:57 <kusanagi> Meetings have been reduced, and things are moving

Feb 06 21:57:53 <Zacqary> Well, tonight for example. What has been achieved that could not have been achieved asynchronously?

Feb 06 21:58:02 <narrenburg> Um...

Feb 06 21:58:59 <Bosun> We have plenty of cheeseheads. We can takover another state. :-p

Feb 06 21:59:05 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:59:10 <narrenburg> [A Time for Tony]

Feb 06 21:59:31 <ToArmsMHearties> give her a broadside, Mr. Ubuntu!

Feb 06 21:59:32 <ToArmsMHearties> :D

Feb 06 22:00:33 <Bosun> pst ? your queue stu

Feb 06 22:00:56 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:01:21 <kusanagi> Zacqary, you're right. We still don't have the platform up

Feb 06 22:01:43 <CalebLangeslag> Put together a proposal of a fair legally-tested approach of conducting asynchronous meetings

Feb 06 22:02:24 <Zacqary> A legally-tested approach?

Feb 06 22:02:26 <stubuntu> huh?

Feb 06 22:03:31 <CalebLangeslag> It's what RONR is; which provides a tested system of fairly conducting business

Feb 06 22:03:58 <Bosun> The invented wheel.

Feb 06 22:04:21 <Zacqary> Well, I have a proposal. It's not yet tested. So I'm gonna implement it. Then whoever wants to start using it can use it. And if it works, it works.

Feb 06 22:05:07 <CalebLangeslag> Is it written anywhere publicly accessible?

Feb 06 22:05:24 <Zacqary> I just copypasted it a few minutes ago

Feb 06 22:05:35 <Zacqary> Second post in this thread describes it: http://pirate-party.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10

Feb 06 22:05:48 <CalebLangeslag> Sorry for missing that

Feb 06 22:06:22 <Zacqary> kusanagi's already a supporter of it, and I think she's been pseudocoding it for the past week

Feb 06 22:06:25 <CalebLangeslag> Isn't Google Wave what you describe?

Feb 06 22:06:43 <CalebLangeslag> Because we could trial the idea of hosting an install

Feb 06 22:06:44 * missle59 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)

Feb 06 22:06:54 * missle59 (~androirc@70.57.oqu.zp) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 22:07:01 <CalebLangeslag> (just based upon the first 2 paragraphs, still reading)

Feb 06 22:07:08 <ToArmsMHearties> that doesn't address the issue of legal muster.

Feb 06 22:07:17 <CalebLangeslag> Correct

Feb 06 22:07:25 <Zacqary> Legal muster? We're pirates.

Feb 06 22:07:33 <CalebLangeslag> Legal pirates. :P

Feb 06 22:07:49 <CalebLangeslag> At least some of us. xP

Feb 06 22:07:52 <ToArmsMHearties> RONR is widely accepted and understood.

Feb 06 22:08:09 <Zacqary> So was phrenology.

Feb 06 22:08:24 <ToArmsMHearties> that's not a fair comparison

Feb 06 22:08:25 <CalebLangeslag> There of course could be provisions added, which may take time to form

Feb 06 22:09:04 <ToArmsMHearties> in a COURT OF LAW, RONR is widely accepted and understood. So if someone sues you, there's legal backup.

Feb 06 22:09:12 <Zacqary> ...so?

Feb 06 22:09:24 * ToArmsMHearties facepalms

Feb 06 22:09:27 <Zacqary> How does this apply to a bunch of activists deciding what to do?

Feb 06 22:10:00 <kusanagi> We're not activists.

Feb 06 22:10:02 <kusanagi> we're

Feb 06 22:10:09 <kusanagi> we're becoming politicians

Feb 06 22:10:32 <missle59> activist politicians?

Feb 06 22:10:48 <kusanagi> the pnc is becoming a legal entity

Feb 06 22:11:05 <kusanagi> and if something happens, the pnc (and officers) could be held legally liable.

Feb 06 22:11:11 <ToArmsMHearties> have you seen what damage can be done in a court of law if they decide you did something to unfairly deny the rights of a member?

Feb 06 22:11:14 <Zacqary> When is it becoming a legal entity?

Feb 06 22:11:18 <ToArmsMHearties> EXACTLY.

Feb 06 22:11:26 <kusanagi> enroute

Feb 06 22:11:26 <Bosun> At some point someone will sue our asses.

Feb 06 22:11:35 <ToArmsMHearties> the officers could be held PERSONALLY liable.

Feb 06 22:11:48 <kusanagi> we need to correct the bylaws, then i can finish npo paperwork

Feb 06 22:11:53 <itspara> Kindof activist politicians.. though the greens are more of that

Feb 06 22:12:02 <itspara> Imo

Feb 06 22:12:20 <ToArmsMHearties> you really don't want to screw around with that.

Feb 06 22:12:20 <Zacqary> Why do we need to become an NPO at this stage?

Feb 06 22:12:31 <ToArmsMHearties> (not having legal backup like RONR, that is)

Feb 06 22:12:45 <itspara> Cause reasons

Feb 06 22:12:57 <kusanagi> because we're (both USPP and NYPP) need to control its assets

Feb 06 22:13:00 * mildbeard (~erik@hknv-28-026-620-99.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 22:13:15 <Zacqary> These assets being?

Feb 06 22:13:25 <kusanagi> the website, for one

Feb 06 22:13:26 <ToArmsMHearties> oh jeez, mildbeard came in. everybody hush.

Feb 06 22:13:30 <ToArmsMHearties> ;)

Feb 06 22:13:41 <CalebLangeslag> Money, servers, domains, website, etc

Feb 06 22:13:46 <ToArmsMHearties> yup

Feb 06 22:14:01 <itspara> Yeah

Feb 06 22:14:02 <ToArmsMHearties> gotta cover your assets.

Feb 06 22:14:10 <CalebLangeslag> At some point we'll also provide hosting and other services for emerging states, to facilitate the growth of the state parties

Feb 06 22:14:22 <kusanagi> In fact, PA already asked for that.

Feb 06 22:14:22 <Bosun> Contracts are made between legal entities.

Feb 06 22:14:31 <itspara> Plus pnc cant get any money without becoming shiny official and jumping through hoops

Feb 06 22:14:36 <mildbeard> sorry to be so late

Feb 06 22:14:46 <ToArmsMHearties> yeah, and the moment USPP makes a decision that a state party doesn't like, you can bet there will be a lawsuit.

Feb 06 22:14:53 <kusanagi> mildbeard, id for the record

Feb 06 22:14:54 <ToArmsMHearties> sooner or later.

Feb 06 22:15:03 * kusanagi gives voice to mildbeard

Feb 06 22:15:05 <mildbeard> Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts

Feb 06 22:16:27 <ToArmsMHearties> http://dl.openhandhelds.org/wiz/screenshots/zoltan.gif

Feb 06 22:16:45 <Bosun> Visions of Pirate Lawyer.

Feb 06 22:16:48 <ToArmsMHearties> :>

Feb 06 22:17:08 <Zacqary> So you're saying we've grown so large at this point that we cannot continue to grow without legally incorporating, thus giving us a whole TON of red tape to worry about?

Feb 06 22:17:11 <mildbeard> lmao

Feb 06 22:17:51 <kusanagi> red tape will be handled

Feb 06 22:18:07 <kusanagi> and to be honest, i'm fucking sick of not having access to USPP things

Feb 06 22:18:25 <kusanagi> i don't have a USPP email address, nor access to the former IT mailing address

Feb 06 22:18:37 <CalebLangeslag> We /still/ have no direct control over pirate-party.us even

Feb 06 22:18:54 <CalebLangeslag> I have to contact a person for the changes to even be made

Feb 06 22:18:55 <Zacqary> So basically you want to incorporate so that you can sue for the domains?

Feb 06 22:18:56 <kusanagi> i want USPP to own its shit, not handled by someone who's not available in WA

Feb 06 22:18:56 <ToArmsMHearties> :D

Feb 06 22:19:12 <kusanagi> including funds

Feb 06 22:19:12 * ToArmsMHearties agrees with kusanagi

Feb 06 22:19:14 <Bosun> Without a legal entity anyone who controls an asset can just take his/her ball home.

Feb 06 22:19:21 <kusanagi> \yes, Bosun

Feb 06 22:19:24 <CalebLangeslag> I don't think we'd be able to sue from incorporating AFTER the domain was already registered

Feb 06 22:19:27 * ToArmsMHearties agrees with Bosun

Feb 06 22:19:33 <kusanagi> And that has happened before

Feb 06 22:19:50 <ToArmsMHearties> I've seen it happen in county democratic parties.

Feb 06 22:19:58 <CalebLangeslag> We have uspirates.org which we do control; but pirate-party.us is an example of not having a legal structure to asset management

Feb 06 22:20:31 <Zacqary> And so legally incorporating is going to magically make everyone start cooperating and working together when they weren't before? Because if we can't get our shit together and be productive without a legal structure, are we really ready to handle having one at all?

Feb 06 22:20:59 <ToArmsMHearties> uhhhh

Feb 06 22:21:13 <ToArmsMHearties> society is BASED on a complex legal structure.

Feb 06 22:21:20 <narrenburg> The fact that we can't handle our stuff is somewhat irrelevant.

Feb 06 22:21:23 <Bosun> It is not a magic bullet, just a practical and real way to operate an organization.

Feb 06 22:21:27 <Zacqary> And that's working out great, isn't it?

Feb 06 22:21:35 <mildbeard> I think if USPP becomes a legally registered entity, we need a firm policy that we encourage members to obey the existing laws (e.g. monopoly copyright) even as we fight vigorously to change those unjust laws.

Feb 06 22:21:36 <narrenburg> No matter what happens, to move on, we have to become more legal.

Feb 06 22:21:45 <ToArmsMHearties> democracy is the worst kind of goverment. except for all the other ones.

Feb 06 22:21:46 <stubuntu> it also allows us to put things in the name of the part instead of its officers

Feb 06 22:21:54 <kusanagi> mildbeard, without a doubt.

Feb 06 22:22:28 <ToArmsMHearties> (yeah I just quoted Winston Churchill. deal with it)

Feb 06 22:22:28 <mildbeard> kusanagi, I'd want to consider voting it into the constitution.

Feb 06 22:23:06 <Bosun> I had to chain stubuntu to a chair to get him to sighn our corporate charter.

Feb 06 22:23:18 <Bosun> (not really)

Feb 06 22:23:20 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:23:25 <kusanagi> mildbeard, since the constitution is in the state of.. duress it's in, would that be feasible to wait?

Feb 06 22:23:31 <ToArmsMHearties> I would've signed it! :P

Feb 06 22:23:38 <ToArmsMHearties> I was in Milwaukee today, too.

Feb 06 22:23:50 <mildbeard> I don't know of any problem in the constitution, but it's not urgent until we incorporate.

Feb 06 22:24:00 <Bosun> Tis filed with the state.

Feb 06 22:24:28 <ToArmsMHearties> mildbeard: can't incorporate without the bylaws in place.

Feb 06 22:24:43 <Bosun> Nonsense.

Feb 06 22:24:44 <ToArmsMHearties> (as I explained earlier, constitution and bylaws are legally the same thing)

Feb 06 22:24:47 <mildbeard> bylaws are a disaster.

Feb 06 22:25:05 <Bosun> You just need the basic articles of incorporation.

Feb 06 22:25:07 <Zacqary> So is the PNC. None of us even agree what the hell this thing is or what it's for. And we're going to incorporate?

Feb 06 22:25:19 <narrenburg> Mildbeard, do you have Mr. Thompson's constitution edit?

Feb 06 22:25:23 <mildbeard> ToArmsMHearties, we have a separate bylaws and constitution. They have a distinct meaning.

Feb 06 22:25:32 <mildbeard> narrenburg, no

Feb 06 22:25:35 <ToArmsMHearties> uhhh, no, they don't

Feb 06 22:25:43 <narrenburg> May I PM to you?

Feb 06 22:25:46 <mildbeard> sure

Feb 06 22:26:03 <kusanagi> mildbeard, the constitution is bad too. ToArmsMHearties went over both with me

Feb 06 22:26:14 <ToArmsMHearties> apparently you missed the part where I mentioned I was a card-carrying member of the National Association of Parliamentarians for 4 years.

Feb 06 22:26:24 <kusanagi> he just logged in

Feb 06 22:26:37 <ToArmsMHearties> oh yeah

Feb 06 22:26:38 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:26:40 <ToArmsMHearties> sorry

Feb 06 22:26:55 <ToArmsMHearties> guess this is the time to mention all that, then. :P

Feb 06 22:27:11 <kusanagi> Zacqary, by agreeing to the constitution, however broken it is, the state parties agreed that this was the organizing and governing body of the mpnc.

Feb 06 22:27:16 <kusanagi> pnc, even

Feb 06 22:27:42 <kusanagi> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/Pirate_National_Committee_(PNC)/Constitution#Section_1:_Purpose

Feb 06 22:27:44 <Bosun> We can fix it.

Feb 06 22:28:01 <Bosun> Agile party development.

Feb 06 22:28:07 <kusanagi> EXACTLY

Feb 06 22:28:09 <ToArmsMHearties> we have the technology

Feb 06 22:28:25 <Zacqary> And incorporating will make us SO more agile.

Feb 06 22:28:26 <ToArmsMHearties> better, stronger, faster

Feb 06 22:28:34 <Bosun> No cyborgs though.

Feb 06 22:28:41 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:28:46 <Zacqary> We'll be SO flexible and able to adapt SO quickly with everything set in fucking legal stone.

Feb 06 22:28:51 <kusanagi> you know kusanagi is the name of a cyborg

Feb 06 22:28:53 <ToArmsMHearties> glad SOMEONE got the reference. I was starting to feel old

Feb 06 22:29:01 <kusanagi> >.>

Feb 06 22:29:16 <kusanagi> Zacqary, we just need to be in compliance

Feb 06 22:29:21 <Zacqary> With what?

Feb 06 22:29:28 <kusanagi> with the legal parts

Feb 06 22:29:33 <kusanagi> we can adapt with it

Feb 06 22:29:39 <ToArmsMHearties> Zacqary: we'll be a great party if someone sues the pants off of us and drains all of our resources.

Feb 06 22:29:54 <mildbeard> I am OK with some of the reforms I've seen to the current constitution if they make it legally stronger. I haven't seen a reform that changes the underlying purpose of the document so I'm OK with it.

Feb 06 22:30:14 <Bosun> Zacqary is a rebel and incorporation is establishment.

Feb 06 22:30:24 <Zacqary> Oh fuck off.

Feb 06 22:30:30 <kusanagi> mildbeard, we're going to go over everything on either sunday or monday to clean up and make the required changes

Feb 06 22:30:32 <CalebLangeslag> You know, the law, campaign finance law, since politics is serious business and competition is going to do everything to shoot you down legally

Feb 06 22:30:45 <ToArmsMHearties> can't do that right now, Zacqary. my DP is at work.

Feb 06 22:30:48 <mildbeard> that's fine but the PNC has to vote on any changes.

Feb 06 22:30:54 <kusanagi> mildbeard, yes

Feb 06 22:31:23 <mildbeard> ok np

Feb 06 22:31:25 * Zacqary has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 18.0.1/20130116073211])

Feb 06 22:31:33 <mildbeard> brb

Feb 06 22:31:44 <MrSquared> i g2g guys

Feb 06 22:31:53 <kusanagi> MrSquared, wait

Feb 06 22:31:57 <MrSquared> ok

Feb 06 22:31:58 <Bosun> I did not mean to piss him off. :-(

Feb 06 22:32:09 <kusanagi> we can continue this in post-meeting. want to call it, guys?

Feb 06 22:32:15 <kusanagi> Bosun, it's fine, i'll speak with him

Feb 06 22:32:26 <Bosun> move adjourn

Feb 06 22:32:32 <ToArmsMHearties> he was being confrontational about it. I just reflected his attitude.

Feb 06 22:32:55 <kusanagi> there's been a move to adjourn

Feb 06 22:32:59 <kusanagi> any seconds

Feb 06 22:33:01 <mildbeard> back

Feb 06 22:33:06 <MrSquared> second

Feb 06 22:33:19 <ToArmsMHearties> though it was kinda lulzworthy to see him ragequit... sorry, the anon in me.

Feb 06 22:33:26 <kusanagi> ok, vote to adjourn. we can continue the discussion postmeeting

Feb 06 22:33:35 <Bosun> aye

Feb 06 22:33:38 * HariSeldon (webchat@56-54-210-158.static.mdsn.wi.charter.com) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 22:33:41 <MrSquared> aye

Feb 06 22:33:42 <kusanagi> ToArmsMHearties, for you, maybe. that's my state's rep

Feb 06 22:33:44 <mildbeard> aye

Feb 06 22:33:50 <Bosun> another cheesehead

Feb 06 22:33:54 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:34:01 <ToArmsMHearties> we could have our own pnc meeting :P

Feb 06 22:34:02 <HariSeldon> ARR!!!

Feb 06 22:34:32 <Bosun> we be adjourned

Feb 06 22:34:34 <ToArmsMHearties> kusanagi: I know

Feb 06 22:34:37 <HariSeldon> what have I missed?

Feb 06 22:34:43 <kusanagi> the meeting

Feb 06 22:34:43 <kusanagi> lol

Feb 06 22:34:45 <kusanagi> Rush,

Feb 06 22:34:49 <stubuntu> haha

Feb 06 22:34:50 <HariSeldon> well, I know that

Feb 06 22:34:52 <Bosun> Tell us about the ACLU meeting

Feb 06 22:34:54 <OyajiVyse> meeting adjourned, thank you all for showing up

Pirate National Committee (PNC)

2012-12-20T06:50:46Z

Kusanagi: /* Officers */

{{USPP NAV}}
The Pirate National Committee is an assembly of representatives from each recognized state Pirate Party.

==PNC Membership==
===Member States (Primary Representative, Secondary Representative)===
*California (Orion Steele, Max Bugrov)
*Florida (Bradley Hall)
*Georgia (Jarod Smith)
*Massachusetts (Erik Zoltan)
*New York (Zacqary Green, Lindsay-Anne Brunner)
*Oregon (Kyle DeVore)
*Washington (Jeff Talada, Brady Dibble)
*Wisconsin (Joseph T. Klein, Megan Cochran)

===Probationary States===
*Oklahoma (Marcus Kesler)

===Observer States===
*[http://marylandpirates.com/ Maryland]
*Michigan
*Missouri

==Officers==
:'''Captain''': Lindsay-Anne Brunner
::'''Phone''':
::'''Email''':
:'''First Mate''': Caleb Langeslag
::'''Phone''':
::'''Email''':
:'''Quartermaster''': Daniel Gorski
::'''Phone''':
::'''Email''':

==Documents==
*[[Pirate National Committee (PNC)/Constitution|Constitution]]
*[[Pirate National Committee (PNC)/Bylaws|Bylaws]]
*[[Pirate National Committee (PNC)/Policies|Policies]]
*[[Pirate National Committee (PNC)/Minutes|Meeting Minutes and Recordings]]
*[[Pirate National Committee (PNC)/State Report | State Report]]

[[Category:USPP]]
[[Category:USPP Orgs]]
[[Category:Pirate National Committee]]

PNC 11/28/12

2012-11-29T03:57:59Z

Kusanagi: formatting

=PNC Meeting Agenda=
::'''--- 11/212012 21:00h EST ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Channel: #pnc
::Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_11/28/12

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*Attending
**Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts
**Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin
**Kyle DeVore, Oregon
**Jarod Smith, Georgia
**Bradley Hall, Florida

*Excused

*Unexcused
**New York
**California
**Washington

*Probation
**Oklahoma

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====
*Benjamin Sauerhaft Coplon, PA
*Nick DeSalvio, Maryland

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====
*Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, Captain

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
Meeting opened at: 9:06pm EST by Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Meeting chaired by Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Secretary for this meeting is Daniel Gorski
*Quorum is established: 5 out of 8 Members present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_11/15/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===

==== 4.3 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====
*Work on site is slow, need more people to help create content or just help out
*Contact information for the State Parties is requested

=====Press Committee=====
*no update
*Coplon agrees to be "fallback" for press committee

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===

*Election of First Officer and Quartermaster
**Caleb Langeslag is voted in as First Officer
**Daniel Gorski is voted in as Quartermaster

=== - AOB - ===

*Next meeting: 12/26/2012 at 9PM EST
*Meeting closed: 10:20pm EST

=== - Logs of the Meeting - ===

<kusanagi> Okay, guys, called for 9:06pm, Roll Call!
<mildbeard> Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts
<kusanagi> Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, Captain
<Bosun> Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin
<MrSquared> Kyle DeVore, Oregon
<jarod_> JAROD SMITH GEORGIA
* rabsrob (~rab@199.167.tr.jg) has joined #pnc
<Rush> Bradley Hall, Florida
<itspara> Nick, Maryland
* jarod (~yaaic@06-46-861-373.pools.spcsdns.net) has joined #pnc
<OyajiVyse> Daniel Gorski, New York
<kusanagi> Huzzah
<kusanagi> Ok, in the topic is the agenda
<itspara> the date is wrong
<mildbeard> Hey I need an account?
<kusanagi> no, i got the date wrong
* kusanagi has changed the topic to: Pirate National Committee of the United States Pirate Party | Meeting Agenda for 11/29/2012: https://pnc.piratenpad.de/11-28-12 | Committees: http://iPir.at/committee | Meetings held on Wednesday, 2100EDT/1800PDT |
* kusanagi has changed the topic to: Pirate National Committee of the United States Pirate Party | Meeting Agenda for 11/28/2012: https://pnc.piratenpad.de/11-28-12 | Committees: http://iPir.at/committee | Meetings held on Wednesday, 2100EDT/1800PDT |
<kusanagi> There we go, sorry
<kusanagi> long day
<itspara> >Guests are not allowed to join that pad. Please sign in.
<kusanagi> I'll open it up.. could have sworn..
<MrSquared> https://pnc.piratenpad.de/PNC-11-28-12
<kusanagi> https://pnc.piratenpad.de/PNC-11-28-12
<kusanagi> thank you kyle
<kusanagi> Man, I'm out of it lol
* kusanagi has changed the topic to: Pirate National Committee of the United States Pirate Party | Meeting Agenda for 11/28/2012: https://pnc.piratenpad.de/PNC-11-28-12 | Committees: http://iPir.at/committee | Meetings held on Wednesday, 2100EDT/1800PDT |
<kusanagi> ok, agenda in topic for reals now
<kusanagi> Ok, to reports, is IT here?
<kusanagi> itspara, anything on the IT front?
<itspara> I don't believe IT has anything to report. CalebLangeslag can correct me if im wrong.
<kusanagi> Don't think he's in right now, Mr CalebLangeslag
<itspara> Work on the new website is slow and sluggish. like a wet sponge.
<kusanagi> Is there anything we can do to try to step up that pace? :/
<kusanagi> I've started to work on it as well... is it just a personnel issue?
<itspara> We can definitely include more people who are interested in creating content or participate otherwise. We are using wordpress.
<mildbeard> What needs to be done aside from content?
<itspara> Additionally we should probably decide what specifically needs to be worked on.
<kusanagi> Contact information for states is needed, now that I recall
<itspara> Not much, mostly content and figuring out which plugins we want to use and make sure they work properly.
<kusanagi> So, if you guys don't mind sending your site/contact emails for your state party my way, that would rock. I could finish that as soon as I have the info
<passstab> kbenjamin sauerhaft coplon chester PA (sorry)
<kusanagi> Better late than never :)
<kusanagi> itspara, that's pretty much all for IT?
<itspara> I believe so
<kusanagi> Press was cancelled this week, as I had an interview during the meeting time. i also would like if someone stepped up as new head for the press committee, because right now I'm still head of that.. I think someone else should take over
<kusanagi> if anyone's interested, of course XD
<passstab> i'll be fallback if you want
<kusanagi> that would rock so much
<passstab> :)
<kusanagi> yaaaay!
<kusanagi> ok, so, onward to FO and QM election
<kusanagi> For FO, CalebLangeslag is the only candidate
<kusanagi> So.. Um, I don't know how this is going to work.. Just aye-or-nay, I suppose?
<Bosun> aye
<mildbeard> aye
<MrSquared> aye
<passstab> abstain :)
<kusanagi> jarod, Rush
<kusanagi> Ok, I'll call it. 3 aye, 2.5abstain, CalebLangeslag is FO
<mildbeard> Congratulations to CalebLangeslag!
<kusanagi> Hooray!
* kusanagi throws confetti
* Missle59 throws a party
* mildbeard sips rum.
<kusanagi> now, for QM, again, one nominee, OyajiVyse. So, let's vote on it. Aye, Nay, Abstain
<Bosun> eye
<mildbeard> aye
<itspara> abstain
<MrSquared> aye
<passstab> aye
<jarod_> abstain
<itspara> *abstaining due to lack of information on nominee
<Rush> aye
<Rush> and aye on the other, there's only one nominee, right?
<kusanagi> Rush, the first vote's closed already
<kusanagi> Bosun, that's aye, correct?
<Bosun> aye
<Bosun> yes
<Bosun> true
<kusanagi> and calling it, 4 for, 1.5 abstain
<kusanagi> congrats OyajiVyse \
* mildbeard gulps rum and toasts congratulations to OyajiVyse.
<itspara> why are we voting publicly? I thought we did this privately
<OyajiVyse> Thank you kindly :)
<itspara> Congrats CalebLangeslag and OyajiVyse
<Rush> There was only one candidate for each position
<itspara> I know
<itspara> but still.
<kusanagi> itspara, it's one candidate for each position
<kusanagi> ok, yay, full new board
<kusanagi> Anyone have AOB to add?
<itspara> I know. I have no probems with it.. i just thought all elections would have private voting regardless
<kusanagi> Not for one candidate, but meh.
<kusanagi> Anyone have anything else to go over tonight?
<itspara> ok
<kusanagi> Cos, if not, we can leave. Next meeting is December 26th (TWENTY-SIXTH) 2012.
<kusanagi> Vote to adjourn?
* kusanagi gives channel operator status to CalebLangeslag
<mildbeard> Hold on, why is the next meeting 12/26?
* kusanagi gives channel operator status to OyajiVyse
<kusanagi> We're going to start going monthly instead of weekly
<itspara> When was this decided?
<kusanagi> It wasn't decided on, I feel it may be more productive to start having the meetings monthly instead of weekly. If you guys feel otherwise, then we can come back next week.
<passstab> can i talk about my classes idea?
<mildbeard> I'm not against it. Just came as a surprise.
<kusanagi> sure, passstab
<itspara> I think it should be voted on
<kusanagi> Does a state wish to make a motion to vote on the meeting date/frequency?
<passstab> i think that we should have pirate classes, for pirates , by pirates, about pirate stuff
<kusanagi> Pirate stuff, like coding, crypto, and the like?
<Rush> Hacker High School
<mildbeard> Massachusetts Pirate Party co-sponsored a crypto party. Have you heard of them? We could have an online one using videos or something...
<passstab> as well as stuff regarding running a party
<passstab> getting a state party off the ground, campaign law, how to talk to people
<mildbeard> We had a conference in 2012 - I think it was around March - and we were thinking of having a virtual conference that we'd publish as a series of videos. It is not exactly the same as passstab's idea but similar. I think MAPP is interested in your idea, but would have to discusss with them.
<kusanagi> It was in March, OyajiVyse and I attended. It was awesome :D
<mildbeard> thanks
<passstab> my idea was to have them online
<Rush> Passtab, only if the next video in the series is "how to talk to girls"
<Rush> lol
<passstab> lol
<mildbeard> I would love to give a talk on peer to peer networks and the future of the pirate party.
<kusanagi> kind of like a pirate ted talk
<mildbeard> LOL we could create TED Pirate.
<Rush> YES, but it'd have to be TEDx Pirate
<mildbeard> Because x marks the spot...
<Rush> Yes
<mildbeard> love it
<kusanagi> That is brilliant
<kusanagi> We should work that. i really like that idea.
<mildbeard> I will contact TED and see what it takes to use TEDx.
<kusanagi> awesome, thank you
<passstab> ted is cc-by-nc-nd :(
<mildbeard> TEDx events may not be used to promote political agendas.
<itspara> hrmm
<kusanagi> :/
<itspara> not surprising
<kusanagi> so it would have to be our own series
<itspara> still.. we should totally do it
<kusanagi> We really should, that would be excellent
<Rush> What would we call it? W"B"T??
<kusanagi> Pirate School
<Rush> That sounds like Driving School, something you'd go to if you got a ticket
<itspara> true
<itspara> Pirate U
<MrSquared> Call it "The Poopdeck"
<passstab> ^^
<itspara> U as in university
<passstab> anyone interested in forming a committee for this?
<mildbeard> SAB x Pirate
<mildbeard> Pirate X
<Missle59> The School of Swashbuckling and Adventuring
<kusanagi> passstab, would you like to head the committee?
<passstab> sure
<itspara> This could go along with the youtube channel I suggested outside of this meeting
<mildbeard> MAPP has a youtube channel already.
* passstab is taking on a lot of responsibility while tired :/
<mildbeard> Should we just have a discussion on SAB and place this on the agenda for next mtg?
<itspara> I think it would be nice to have a national channel.. so we can brand ourselves nationally
<kusanagi> yes, mi
<kusanagi> mildbeard,
<itspara> on SAB or the forums.. yes
<mildbeard> Does the new site have a forum?
<itspara> we have had a forum for over a month
<itspara> a nice new phpbb3 forum
<kusanagi> I believe the one we have now will continue to be our forum
<itspara> http://pirate-party.us/forum
<mildbeard> ah ok. I didn't see a link on the testing.usporates.org site - so I wasn't sure.
<mildbeard> testing.uspirates.org I mean
* passstab will register #uspp-video
<itspara> there should be a link along the top... unless someone removed it
<kusanagi> I didn't see one last night..
<mildbeard> Aah. Didn't notice. That and the login links are kinda subtle.
* Rush has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
<mildbeard> OK so I'd like to make a motion about the next meeting date if that's OK?
<kusanagi> sure
<mildbeard> Move to hold our next meeting on Wed 12/26.
<kusanagi> second?
<MrSquared> second
<itspara> observers cant second :/
<Bosun> second
<kusanagi> Vote on next meeting date to be Dec. 26 - aye or nay?
<Bosun> aye
<passstab> aye
<mildbeard> aye
<MrSquared> aye
<itspara> nay
<kusanagi> jarod? jarod_?
<mildbeard> I wish we'd had more discussion before voting, because I'd like to understand itspara's objection.
<jarod_> aye
<jarod_> sorry at work
<kusanagi> it's fine
<itspara> I feel that meeting often helps keep everyone in the loop
<itspara> and allows for voting on items more often
<kusanagi> we can call a meeting sooner, if needed
<passstab> we should have people on more committees to make up for it
<itspara> ok... I still keep my nay vote... but that is good
<mildbeard> This is a great time of year to have a break, but maybe every 2 weeks in the future would be OK?
<kusanagi> we have that option as well
<kusanagi> mildbeard, yeah, that may be better in the future
<kusanagi> OyajiVyse, totals?
<mildbeard> Also it would be nice to explore other times to meet. I know this doesn't work for some states.
<OyajiVyse> 4 aye, 0.5 nay
<kusanagi> especially the more western states
<kusanagi> vote passed, next meeting dec 26th. make sure to bring boxes
<itspara> I also want to see forums be used more... Eventually they should replace SAB as we don't have control over the SAB
<kusanagi> that's true too, itspara
<itspara> > make sure to bring boxes
<kusanagi> boxing day joke.
<mildbeard> ooooohhhhhh
* sacha (~Sacha@11-79-843-15.dhcp.aldl.mi.charter.com) has joined #pnc
<itspara> Next IT meeting that actually happens I will try to make it a priority to build in mailing list functionality into the forums SAB section
<kusanagi> anyway, bad jokes aside, anyone want to move to adjourn?\
<itspara> oh
<itspara> I cant move
<sacha> whoa what happened with the elections?
<itspara> im an observer
<kusanagi> itspara, i'll see if I can help with that
<sacha> Everyone voted in that was supposed to be?
<kusanagi> sacha, CalebLangeslag and OyajiVyse won.
<mildbeard> Sacha, we have a new QM and a new FO.
<itspara> sacha: we elected you supreme leader
<sacha> Wait it has only been 14 mins
<kusanagi> 14?
<sacha> oh jk
<mildbeard> 74
<kusanagi> uh.. you may need to fix your clock
<itspara> an hour and 14
<sacha> I woke up late have no idea what time it is
<kusanagi> we're about to adjourn
<mildbeard> Are you in Australia?
<itspara> I think we should give sacha time to bring up something if she wishes
<kusanagi> i think she needs a coffee first
<sacha> Lol
<itspara> Sacha, any AOB stuff?
<sacha> I was just going to ask about how making Liz's Fiance QM would affect things
<sacha> Does it bother anyone?
<kusanagi> it would lead to him getting beat if he doesn't do what he needs to.
<sacha> They wouldn't be arguing as independent entities really
<sacha> Or him getting beat if he disagrees with you
<itspara> Im not sure, we will have to keep an eye on whether or not that causes any issues.
<sacha> which could be a problem
<mildbeard> Personally I'm glad someone stepped forward, and I don't think we should consider it a problem until it actually becomes one.
<kusanagi> It won't cause any issues, and I won't beat him if he disagrees.
<sacha> Is Travis banned from IRC?
<itspara> If you do kusanagi, bear in mind both of you could lose your positions for abusing the system
<kusanagi> He was temp banned because he was flooding before. he's been unbanned for some time now
<kusanagi> itspara, well aware
<sacha> I agree with you Mildbeard it is something I will just watch and I was curious what others thought
<mildbeard> wait - what happened with Travis?
<kusanagi> his client is messed up and it keeps joining then flooding out
<kusanagi> he said to ban him when it happens, and I do and let him know immediately.
<mildbeard> aah ok. that's not as controversial as it sounded!!!
<itspara> not like he was arrested for building nukes
<kusanagi> mildbeard, we almost had dramas! hahah
* jarod_ has quit (Quit: Web client closed)
<mildbeard> itspara - if you start using the forums I will be sure to reply to you there!
<mildbeard> Move to adjourn.
<kusanagi> oooh.. we fell under quorum.
<kusanagi> anyone second? MrSquared, Bosun?
<itspara> I want to see the captain actively using the forums as well...
<Bosun> second
<kusanagi> itspara, I will
<kusanagi> ok, vote to adjourn
<mildbeard> aye
<sacha> k all is good
<itspara> aye
<mildbeard> I hope the IT committee will let me create a policy forum. I would post there a lot.
<itspara> I can set that up now if you wish
<itspara> I think we should remodel the forum after the green parties shiny new forum
<kusanagi> ok, we're under quorum anyway, good night, next meeting is boxing day, dec 26th unless called before then. good night
<Bosun> aye adjourn
<OyajiVyse> good night all, and thank you once again :)
<Bosun> goodnight
<passstab> 'night

PNC 11/28/12

2012-11-29T03:54:14Z

Kusanagi: initial creation of page -lb

=::PNC Meeting Agenda::=
::'''--- 11/212012 21:00h EST ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Channel: #pnc
::Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_11/28/12

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*Attending
Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts
Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin
Kyle DeVore, Oregon
Jarod Smith, Georgia
Bradley Hall, Florida

*Excused

*Unexcused
New York
California
Washington

*Probation
Oklahoma

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====
Benjamin Sauerhaft Coplon, PA
Nick DeSalvio, Maryland

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====
Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, Captain

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
Meeting opened at: 9:06pm EST by Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Meeting chaired by Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Secretary for this meeting is Daniel Gorski
*Quorum is established: 5 out of 8 Members present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_11/15/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===

==== 4.3 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====
Work on site is slow, need more people to help create content or just help out
Contact information for the State Parties is requested

=====Press Committee=====
no update
Coplon agrees to be "fallback" for press committee

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===

*Election of First Officer and Quartermaster
**Caleb Langeslag is voted in as First Officer
**Daniel Gorski is voted in as Quartermaster

=== - AOB - ===

*Next meeting: 12/26/2012 at 9PM EST
*Meeting closed: 10:20pm EST

=== - Logs of the Meeting - ===

<kusanagi> Okay, guys, called for 9:06pm, Roll Call!
<mildbeard> Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts
<kusanagi> Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, Captain
<Bosun> Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin
<MrSquared> Kyle DeVore, Oregon
<jarod_> JAROD SMITH GEORGIA
* rabsrob (~rab@199.167.tr.jg) has joined #pnc
<Rush> Bradley Hall, Florida
<itspara> Nick, Maryland
* jarod (~yaaic@06-46-861-373.pools.spcsdns.net) has joined #pnc
<OyajiVyse> Daniel Gorski, New York
<kusanagi> Huzzah
<kusanagi> Ok, in the topic is the agenda
<itspara> the date is wrong
<mildbeard> Hey I need an account?
<kusanagi> no, i got the date wrong
* kusanagi has changed the topic to: Pirate National Committee of the United States Pirate Party | Meeting Agenda for 11/29/2012: https://pnc.piratenpad.de/11-28-12 | Committees: http://iPir.at/committee | Meetings held on Wednesday, 2100EDT/1800PDT |
* kusanagi has changed the topic to: Pirate National Committee of the United States Pirate Party | Meeting Agenda for 11/28/2012: https://pnc.piratenpad.de/11-28-12 | Committees: http://iPir.at/committee | Meetings held on Wednesday, 2100EDT/1800PDT |
<kusanagi> There we go, sorry
<kusanagi> long day
<itspara> >Guests are not allowed to join that pad. Please sign in.
<kusanagi> I'll open it up.. could have sworn..
<MrSquared> https://pnc.piratenpad.de/PNC-11-28-12
<kusanagi> https://pnc.piratenpad.de/PNC-11-28-12
<kusanagi> thank you kyle
<kusanagi> Man, I'm out of it lol
* kusanagi has changed the topic to: Pirate National Committee of the United States Pirate Party | Meeting Agenda for 11/28/2012: https://pnc.piratenpad.de/PNC-11-28-12 | Committees: http://iPir.at/committee | Meetings held on Wednesday, 2100EDT/1800PDT |
<kusanagi> ok, agenda in topic for reals now
<kusanagi> Ok, to reports, is IT here?
<kusanagi> itspara, anything on the IT front?
<itspara> I don't believe IT has anything to report. CalebLangeslag can correct me if im wrong.
<kusanagi> Don't think he's in right now, Mr CalebLangeslag
<itspara> Work on the new website is slow and sluggish. like a wet sponge.
<kusanagi> Is there anything we can do to try to step up that pace? :/
<kusanagi> I've started to work on it as well... is it just a personnel issue?
<itspara> We can definitely include more people who are interested in creating content or participate otherwise. We are using wordpress.
<mildbeard> What needs to be done aside from content?
<itspara> Additionally we should probably decide what specifically needs to be worked on.
<kusanagi> Contact information for states is needed, now that I recall
<itspara> Not much, mostly content and figuring out which plugins we want to use and make sure they work properly.
<kusanagi> So, if you guys don't mind sending your site/contact emails for your state party my way, that would rock. I could finish that as soon as I have the info
<passstab> kbenjamin sauerhaft coplon chester PA (sorry)
<kusanagi> Better late than never :)
<kusanagi> itspara, that's pretty much all for IT?
<itspara> I believe so
<kusanagi> Press was cancelled this week, as I had an interview during the meeting time. i also would like if someone stepped up as new head for the press committee, because right now I'm still head of that.. I think someone else should take over
<kusanagi> if anyone's interested, of course XD
<passstab> i'll be fallback if you want
<kusanagi> that would rock so much
<passstab> :)
<kusanagi> yaaaay!
<kusanagi> ok, so, onward to FO and QM election
<kusanagi> For FO, CalebLangeslag is the only candidate
<kusanagi> So.. Um, I don't know how this is going to work.. Just aye-or-nay, I suppose?
<Bosun> aye
<mildbeard> aye
<MrSquared> aye
<passstab> abstain :)
<kusanagi> jarod, Rush
<kusanagi> Ok, I'll call it. 3 aye, 2.5abstain, CalebLangeslag is FO
<mildbeard> Congratulations to CalebLangeslag!
<kusanagi> Hooray!
* kusanagi throws confetti
* Missle59 throws a party
* mildbeard sips rum.
<kusanagi> now, for QM, again, one nominee, OyajiVyse. So, let's vote on it. Aye, Nay, Abstain
<Bosun> eye
<mildbeard> aye
<itspara> abstain
<MrSquared> aye
<passstab> aye
<jarod_> abstain
<itspara> *abstaining due to lack of information on nominee
<Rush> aye
<Rush> and aye on the other, there's only one nominee, right?
<kusanagi> Rush, the first vote's closed already
<kusanagi> Bosun, that's aye, correct?
<Bosun> aye
<Bosun> yes
<Bosun> true
<kusanagi> and calling it, 4 for, 1.5 abstain
<kusanagi> congrats OyajiVyse \
* mildbeard gulps rum and toasts congratulations to OyajiVyse.
<itspara> why are we voting publicly? I thought we did this privately
<OyajiVyse> Thank you kindly :)
<itspara> Congrats CalebLangeslag and OyajiVyse
<Rush> There was only one candidate for each position
<itspara> I know
<itspara> but still.
<kusanagi> itspara, it's one candidate for each position
<kusanagi> ok, yay, full new board
<kusanagi> Anyone have AOB to add?
<itspara> I know. I have no probems with it.. i just thought all elections would have private voting regardless
<kusanagi> Not for one candidate, but meh.
<kusanagi> Anyone have anything else to go over tonight?
<itspara> ok
<kusanagi> Cos, if not, we can leave. Next meeting is December 26th (TWENTY-SIXTH) 2012.
<kusanagi> Vote to adjourn?
* kusanagi gives channel operator status to CalebLangeslag
<mildbeard> Hold on, why is the next meeting 12/26?
* kusanagi gives channel operator status to OyajiVyse
<kusanagi> We're going to start going monthly instead of weekly
<itspara> When was this decided?
<kusanagi> It wasn't decided on, I feel it may be more productive to start having the meetings monthly instead of weekly. If you guys feel otherwise, then we can come back next week.
<passstab> can i talk about my classes idea?
<mildbeard> I'm not against it. Just came as a surprise.
<kusanagi> sure, passstab
<itspara> I think it should be voted on
<kusanagi> Does a state wish to make a motion to vote on the meeting date/frequency?
<passstab> i think that we should have pirate classes, for pirates , by pirates, about pirate stuff
<kusanagi> Pirate stuff, like coding, crypto, and the like?
<Rush> Hacker High School
<mildbeard> Massachusetts Pirate Party co-sponsored a crypto party. Have you heard of them? We could have an online one using videos or something...
<passstab> as well as stuff regarding running a party
<passstab> getting a state party off the ground, campaign law, how to talk to people
<mildbeard> We had a conference in 2012 - I think it was around March - and we were thinking of having a virtual conference that we'd publish as a series of videos. It is not exactly the same as passstab's idea but similar. I think MAPP is interested in your idea, but would have to discusss with them.
<kusanagi> It was in March, OyajiVyse and I attended. It was awesome :D
<mildbeard> thanks
<passstab> my idea was to have them online
<Rush> Passtab, only if the next video in the series is "how to talk to girls"
<Rush> lol
<passstab> lol
<mildbeard> I would love to give a talk on peer to peer networks and the future of the pirate party.
<kusanagi> kind of like a pirate ted talk
<mildbeard> LOL we could create TED Pirate.
<Rush> YES, but it'd have to be TEDx Pirate
<mildbeard> Because x marks the spot...
<Rush> Yes
<mildbeard> love it
<kusanagi> That is brilliant
<kusanagi> We should work that. i really like that idea.
<mildbeard> I will contact TED and see what it takes to use TEDx.
<kusanagi> awesome, thank you
<passstab> ted is cc-by-nc-nd :(
<mildbeard> TEDx events may not be used to promote political agendas.
<itspara> hrmm
<kusanagi> :/
<itspara> not surprising
<kusanagi> so it would have to be our own series
<itspara> still.. we should totally do it
<kusanagi> We really should, that would be excellent
<Rush> What would we call it? W"B"T??
<kusanagi> Pirate School
<Rush> That sounds like Driving School, something you'd go to if you got a ticket
<itspara> true
<itspara> Pirate U
<MrSquared> Call it "The Poopdeck"
<passstab> ^^
<itspara> U as in university
<passstab> anyone interested in forming a committee for this?
<mildbeard> SAB x Pirate
<mildbeard> Pirate X
<Missle59> The School of Swashbuckling and Adventuring
<kusanagi> passstab, would you like to head the committee?
<passstab> sure
<itspara> This could go along with the youtube channel I suggested outside of this meeting
<mildbeard> MAPP has a youtube channel already.
* passstab is taking on a lot of responsibility while tired :/
<mildbeard> Should we just have a discussion on SAB and place this on the agenda for next mtg?
<itspara> I think it would be nice to have a national channel.. so we can brand ourselves nationally
<kusanagi> yes, mi
<kusanagi> mildbeard,
<itspara> on SAB or the forums.. yes
<mildbeard> Does the new site have a forum?
<itspara> we have had a forum for over a month
<itspara> a nice new phpbb3 forum
<kusanagi> I believe the one we have now will continue to be our forum
<itspara> http://pirate-party.us/forum
<mildbeard> ah ok. I didn't see a link on the testing.usporates.org site - so I wasn't sure.
<mildbeard> testing.uspirates.org I mean
* passstab will register #uspp-video
<itspara> there should be a link along the top... unless someone removed it
<kusanagi> I didn't see one last night..
<mildbeard> Aah. Didn't notice. That and the login links are kinda subtle.
* Rush has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
<mildbeard> OK so I'd like to make a motion about the next meeting date if that's OK?
<kusanagi> sure
<mildbeard> Move to hold our next meeting on Wed 12/26.
<kusanagi> second?
<MrSquared> second
<itspara> observers cant second :/
<Bosun> second
<kusanagi> Vote on next meeting date to be Dec. 26 - aye or nay?
<Bosun> aye
<passstab> aye
<mildbeard> aye
<MrSquared> aye
<itspara> nay
<kusanagi> jarod? jarod_?
<mildbeard> I wish we'd had more discussion before voting, because I'd like to understand itspara's objection.
<jarod_> aye
<jarod_> sorry at work
<kusanagi> it's fine
<itspara> I feel that meeting often helps keep everyone in the loop
<itspara> and allows for voting on items more often
<kusanagi> we can call a meeting sooner, if needed
<passstab> we should have people on more committees to make up for it
<itspara> ok... I still keep my nay vote... but that is good
<mildbeard> This is a great time of year to have a break, but maybe every 2 weeks in the future would be OK?
<kusanagi> we have that option as well
<kusanagi> mildbeard, yeah, that may be better in the future
<kusanagi> OyajiVyse, totals?
<mildbeard> Also it would be nice to explore other times to meet. I know this doesn't work for some states.
<OyajiVyse> 4 aye, 0.5 nay
<kusanagi> especially the more western states
<kusanagi> vote passed, next meeting dec 26th. make sure to bring boxes
<itspara> I also want to see forums be used more... Eventually they should replace SAB as we don't have control over the SAB
<kusanagi> that's true too, itspara
<itspara> > make sure to bring boxes
<kusanagi> boxing day joke.
<mildbeard> ooooohhhhhh
* sacha (~Sacha@11-79-843-15.dhcp.aldl.mi.charter.com) has joined #pnc
<itspara> Next IT meeting that actually happens I will try to make it a priority to build in mailing list functionality into the forums SAB section
<kusanagi> anyway, bad jokes aside, anyone want to move to adjourn?\
<itspara> oh
<itspara> I cant move
<sacha> whoa what happened with the elections?
<itspara> im an observer
<kusanagi> itspara, i'll see if I can help with that
<sacha> Everyone voted in that was supposed to be?
<kusanagi> sacha, CalebLangeslag and OyajiVyse won.
<mildbeard> Sacha, we have a new QM and a new FO.
<itspara> sacha: we elected you supreme leader
<sacha> Wait it has only been 14 mins
<kusanagi> 14?
<sacha> oh jk
<mildbeard> 74
<kusanagi> uh.. you may need to fix your clock
<itspara> an hour and 14
<sacha> I woke up late have no idea what time it is
<kusanagi> we're about to adjourn
<mildbeard> Are you in Australia?
<itspara> I think we should give sacha time to bring up something if she wishes
<kusanagi> i think she needs a coffee first
<sacha> Lol
<itspara> Sacha, any AOB stuff?
<sacha> I was just going to ask about how making Liz's Fiance QM would affect things
<sacha> Does it bother anyone?
<kusanagi> it would lead to him getting beat if he doesn't do what he needs to.
<sacha> They wouldn't be arguing as independent entities really
<sacha> Or him getting beat if he disagrees with you
<itspara> Im not sure, we will have to keep an eye on whether or not that causes any issues.
<sacha> which could be a problem
<mildbeard> Personally I'm glad someone stepped forward, and I don't think we should consider it a problem until it actually becomes one.
<kusanagi> It won't cause any issues, and I won't beat him if he disagrees.
<sacha> Is Travis banned from IRC?
<itspara> If you do kusanagi, bear in mind both of you could lose your positions for abusing the system
<kusanagi> He was temp banned because he was flooding before. he's been unbanned for some time now
<kusanagi> itspara, well aware
<sacha> I agree with you Mildbeard it is something I will just watch and I was curious what others thought
<mildbeard> wait - what happened with Travis?
<kusanagi> his client is messed up and it keeps joining then flooding out
<kusanagi> he said to ban him when it happens, and I do and let him know immediately.
<mildbeard> aah ok. that's not as controversial as it sounded!!!
<itspara> not like he was arrested for building nukes
<kusanagi> mildbeard, we almost had dramas! hahah
* jarod_ has quit (Quit: Web client closed)
<mildbeard> itspara - if you start using the forums I will be sure to reply to you there!
<mildbeard> Move to adjourn.
<kusanagi> oooh.. we fell under quorum.
<kusanagi> anyone second? MrSquared, Bosun?
<itspara> I want to see the captain actively using the forums as well...
<Bosun> second
<kusanagi> itspara, I will
<kusanagi> ok, vote to adjourn
<mildbeard> aye
<sacha> k all is good
<itspara> aye
<mildbeard> I hope the IT committee will let me create a policy forum. I would post there a lot.
<itspara> I can set that up now if you wish
<itspara> I think we should remodel the forum after the green parties shiny new forum
<kusanagi> ok, we're under quorum anyway, good night, next meeting is boxing day, dec 26th unless called before then. good night
<Bosun> aye adjourn
<OyajiVyse> good night all, and thank you once again :)
<Bosun> goodnight
<passstab> 'night

PNC 10/24/12

2012-10-22T21:38:20Z

Kusanagi: Created page with "c/p agenda/logs"

c/p agenda/logs

PNC 10/22/12

2012-10-22T21:32:54Z

Kusanagi: Created page with "copy and paste logs here"

copy and paste logs here

PNC 10/17/12

2012-10-18T16:16:17Z

Kusanagi: fixed probation sect.

=:'''Agenda PNC MEETING'''
::'''--- 10/17/2012 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Channel: #pnc
::Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_10/17/12

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

==ATTENDEES ==
=== Members of the PNC ===
====Attending====
*Orion Steele, CA
*Bradley Hall, FL
*Kyle Devore, OR
*Zacqary Adam Green, NY
*Erik Zoltan, MA
*Jeff Talada, WA

====Excused====

====Unexcused====
*WI
*GA

====Probation====
*OK, 12th week

===At Large Members of the PNC ===
*Rab Kay, Idaho
*Caleb Langeslag, MN

===Officers of the PNC ===
*Travis McCrea, NY, Captain

==PROCEEDINGS ==
Meeting closed at: 9:01 pm EDT by
*Meeting chaired by Travis McCrea
*Acting Secretary for this meeting is Amanda Johnson
*Quorum is established: 5 Members out of 8 present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

==Review of previous minutes ==
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_10/10/12

== REPORTS ==
===Short report of the board members ===

====Massachusetts====
*Still using liquid feedbck
*New treasurer
*Holding a crypto party this weekend, offering a dozen or so classes two at a time on how to protect your identity.
**note: A crypto party is a party where people get together and teach each other how to use privacy tools like Truecrypt, TOR, and PG
*thinking of using a blog with forums and comments to discuss new policies and get feedback from supporters

====Washington====

====Oregon====
* Voice meeting over mumble soon

====Georgia====

====Florida====
*All three officers have been pretty busy
*Rush is continuing to work on NSH 2
*Working to create a club at a local university for young piratesW

====New York====
*begun discussing an electoral alliance with the green party

====California====
*upgrading forums and using liquid feedback
*have two student interns, one for social media (will be replaced soon) and one for music management
*10th episode of pirate hour last week
*have enough people to hold regional and state meetings
*weekly meetings on mondays
*working on legislation about spy drones to present to CA state legislator

====Wisconsin====
*http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/WAPP_State_Organization
*organizational structure

|||=== MEETING TIMES ====|||

===Short Report From Committees ===
====IT Committee====
*sexy new forums are live at pirate-party.us/forum/
*established new layout for forums
*a new theme is being developed
*waiting for content for website
*registered uspirates.org

====Bylaws Committee====
*We should dissolve this committee
**motion to dissolve
**motion passes 4 for, .5 at large for

====Convention Committee====

==Agenda Items ==

*Creation of a Content Committee
**Mildbeard, Zacqary, MrSquared, Rush, and Orionsteele shall be given authority and access to the website to create content

*Amending the Constitution for IT Standards
**discussion will be tabled for the IT committee to come up with standards

*PNC State Rep Absence

== - AOB - ==

*Amending the bylaws (Sacha)
*Meetings times and dates (Rab)
**the idea of asynchronous meetings was discussed
**motion to move discussion of meeting times and dates to the forums
***4 for, 1 at large for
*Status of legal registration of the PNC
*WA report
*Is the PNC a national brand or is it a resource for the states, I keep seeing it make decisions like it is the first but the membership is of the second.
**Motion to move discussion to email
**Motion passes 3 for, .5 at large for

*Next meeting: TBA at 9PM EDT
*Meeting closed: 12:09am EDT

== - Logs of the Meeting - ==

*(21:01) <teamcoltra>Hear ye hear ye, I call this meeting to order and ask that all ye nobel gentlemen, gentlewomen, and gentlepersons declare your name and state for the records
*(21:02) <OrionSteele>orion steele - california
*(21:02) <teamcoltra>and also ye who be not nobel
*(21:02) - Zacqary joined
*(21:02) <MrSquared>Kyle DeVore, Oregon
*(21:02) <CalebL[laptop]>Caleb Langeslag, Minnesota *(at-large)
*(21:02) - teamcoltra set mode: +v OrionSteele
*(21:02) - teamcoltra set mode: +v MrSquared
*(21:02) - erixoltan joined
*(21:02) - teamcoltra set mode: +v erixoltan
*(21:02) <Rab_K>Rab Kay *(guest Idaho)
*(21:02) <Sacha>Amanda Johnson, MI
*(21:02) <Zacqary>Zacqary Adan Green, NY
*(21:02) - mildbeard joined
*(21:03) - teamcoltra set mode: +v Zacqary
*(21:03) <mildbeard>Erik Zoltan, MAPP
*(21:03) - teamcoltra set mode: +v mildbeard
*(21:03) - erixoltan left
*(21:03) - mildbeard quit *(Client Quit)
*(21:03) <teamcoltra>I am voicing Brad Hall of Florida as he has queried me that he is here, just preoccupied right now
*(21:04) - teamcoltra set mode: +v Rush
*(21:04) - mildbeard joined
*(21:04) - teamcoltra set mode: +v mildbeard
*(21:04) <mildbeard>whoops
*(21:04) <teamcoltra>Okay let's crank through this
*(21:05) <teamcoltra>Sacha will be tonights QM, I am Travis McCrea the Captain. Meeting started at 9:01 EDT and we are going to start by reviewing last weeks minutes
*(21:05) <teamcoltra>https://pnc.piratenpad.de/PNC-10-17-12
*(21:05) <teamcoltra>I will give you guys 3 minutes to review and point out any discrepancies
*(21:05) <mildbeard>is that the minutes?
*(21:05) <mildbeard>or agenda?
*(21:06) <teamcoltra>http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_10/17/12
*(21:06) <teamcoltra>sorry
*(21:06) <teamcoltra>3 minutes starting now :P
*(21:07) <mildbeard>Those minutes look like this week not last week?
*(21:07) <Rush>Bradley Hall, Florida
*(21:07) <MrSquared>http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_10/10/12
*(21:07) <MrSquared>ftfy
*(21:08) <teamcoltra>Thanks MrSquared
*(21:08) <teamcoltra>Eventually I was going to get that right
*(21:09) <teamcoltra>Okay
*(21:09) <teamcoltra>Moving on
*(21:09) <teamcoltra>mildbeard of Mass Pirates
*(21:10) <mildbeard>We have a crypto party this Sunday.
*(21:10) <mildbeard>We will be offering a dozen or so classes, two at a time, on how to protect your security online.
*(21:10) <mildbeard>We have a new treasurer.
*(21:11) <mildbeard>And similar to the Swedish Pirates, we are thinking of using a blog with comments and possibly a forum to discuss new policies and get feedback from our supporters.
*(21:11) <mildbeard>Of course we're still using liquid feedback.
*(21:12) <mildbeard>That's all that comes to mind.
*(21:12) <teamcoltra>Sweet
*(21:12) <teamcoltra>Thanks
*(21:13) <teamcoltra>Washington and Oregon are absent
*(21:13) <teamcoltra>err
*(21:13) <teamcoltra>Washington and Georgia are absent
*(21:13) <teamcoltra>Oregon is here with MrSquared
*(21:13) <MrSquared>Oregon is working on holding a voice meeting over mumble in the near future. A few of our members expressed interest and we are working on getting the time for when we can meet.
*(21:13) <MrSquared>That is it.
*(21:14) <teamcoltra>Thanks
*(21:14) <teamcoltra>Florida / Rush
*(21:15) <teamcoltra>While we wait for Rush let's go to Zacqary
*(21:15) <teamcoltra>from New York
*(21:16) <Zacqary>We've begun a dialogue with the New York Green Party about the possibility of an electoral alliance. New York has electoral fusion laws which allow parties to endorse candidates instead of running them, so getting some Pirate candidates on two ballot lines *(and having Green activists help us campaign) could be beneficial.
*(21:16) <Zacqary>Nothing official yet, though.
*(21:17) <Zacqary>I think that's it.
*(21:17) <Zacqary>Unless, teamcoltra, have you started Buffalo meetups yet?
*(21:17) <teamcoltra>Not yet, but Aelish and I have actually gone out and found some print shops
*(21:17) <teamcoltra>I live next door to one
*(21:17) <Zacqary>Oh nice.
*(21:17) <Zacqary>Okay, I think that's it then.
*(21:17) <teamcoltra>*(and Zacqary knows my love for print shops... I might be spending a lot of time there)
*(21:18) <teamcoltra>California, long time no see. Whats going on with you OrionSteele
*(21:18) <Rush>*(here)
*(21:18) <OrionSteele>hi
*(21:18) <OrionSteele>we have a lot but we can let Rush go first if you want
*(21:19) <teamcoltra>Someone start writing, whoever presses enter first just keep going and the other will go next
*(21:19) <OrionSteele>- we have enough people in california to hold local regional meetings in addition to our state level meetings. There is a group holding weekly meetings in San Diego and we coordinate with them weekly, and also keep them updated on PNC happenings.
*(21:19) <OrionSteele>- we have 2 student interns helping us with social media and music management *(social media person is about to be replaced as they haven't done much)
*(21:20) <OrionSteele>- we held the 10th episode of the Pirate Hour last Thursday with David Brin *(sci fi author, futurist, political analyst) and it was awesome. Tomorrow we will be speaking to a political analyst about propositions in california
*(21:20) <OrionSteele>- we are going to launch the new website with liquid feedback and new forums some time in the next week *(hopefully)
*(21:21) <OrionSteele>- currently looking for a voter registration drive coordinator who can help us keep track of registration cards
*(21:21) <OrionSteele>- we are working with the CA secretary of state to take an inventory of our current numbers because some people have signed up for CAPP and then got voter cards that say they are not affiliated with any party so we have an investigation going on for each county to see whether they are actually recording our numbers
*(21:22) <OrionSteele>- weekly meetings continue every monday and we are going to turn the Pirate Radio station on as soon as the website goes up
*(21:22) <OrionSteele>- our next step is to draft legislation and present it to the CA legislature...i think we've decided on a law banning drone tech in our state
*(21:23) <OrionSteele>there are other things going on but i think that covers some of the highlights
*(21:23) <mildbeard>awesome
*(21:23) <Rush>All three officers of FLPP haven't been able to put as much time to FLPP as we would like, but I am slowly working on NSH2, it might be a month or so behind *(not been able to work on it as I'd like). We are working with a student to create the first Young *(Florida) Pirates club at a university in Florida. When successful, it will be a model for others. *(more)
*(21:24) <Rush>*(continued) We're interested in CAPP's intern program and would like to learn more about it as we could totally use that here
*(21:24) <Rush>Done.
*(21:25) <teamcoltra>That sounds great, thanks both of you
*(21:25) <teamcoltra>Wisconsin isn't here right?
*(21:26) <teamcoltra>Okay
*(21:26) <teamcoltra>I am going to take a little bit of privilege as the chair and ask to discuss something before all other reports and agenda items are discussed: Meeting times.
*(21:27) <teamcoltra>We keep having so much to discuss that this topic keeps getting pushed back, and because we are having such low attendence after a couple hours we lose one or two people and we lose quorum
*(21:27) <mildbeard>let's make a doodle to choose a good time.
*(21:27) <teamcoltra>mildbeard would you do the honors of making one up, because I am also going to type out something else?
*(21:29) <teamcoltra>What I would like to do is hold meeting every other week *(and hopefully ween ourselves up to once a month, but we still have lots of stuff to cover). This hopefully will put less pressure on everything having to be decided by the PNC and give people more empowerment to just do shit.
*(21:29) <Rab_K>wed doesn't work for me ever *(except tnight)
*(21:29) <mildbeard>What times should I put on the doodle?
*(21:29) <teamcoltra>I would also like to cut out all reports from meetings, and have those emailed into a centeral address weekly where they will be published in some form *(on the wiki, or I was thinking maybe a github site)
*(21:30) <itspara>why not have meetings every single night >:)
*(21:30) <Zacqary>I think we need to ask ourselves what the benefit of real-time discussion in IRC is vs. doing this in an asynchronous fashion like a discussion forum?
*(21:30) <Rush>itspara No.
*(21:30) <teamcoltra>mildbeard put 3-9 M-F 12-9 Sa/Su ?
*(21:30) <mildbeard>why not an irc as well as a forum?
*(21:30) <CalebL[laptop]>I have a recommendation that member states utilize the mailing lists or *(newly revised forum) for debating some things to death before meetings, so that all that needs to be done is a final discussion and a vote, at meetings.
*(21:31) <teamcoltra>Just so we can get a rough idea
*(21:31) <Sacha>do we still have to ask permission to speak since this is an aob item?
*(21:31) <Sacha>forum yay, mailing list boo
*(21:31) <teamcoltra>everyone is invited to talk
*(21:31) <teamcoltra>it affects us all equally
*(21:31) <Sacha>I think we should try working with asynchronous meetings more seriously
*(21:32) <teamcoltra>I, too, believe in asynchronous meetings. However, I think there is value in us all coming together to make decisions as well. It seems that when you have async meetings, people feel less accountable
*(21:32) <Sacha>We talk about it but never work on it
*(21:32) <Sacha>teamcoltra there are ways to prevent that
*(21:32) <CalebL[laptop]>There's a nice shiny board specifically for the PNC, such as for forming/persuading/debating over motions/amendments.
*(21:32) <Zacqary>How do people feel less accountable?
*(21:33) <itspara>sacha, I know there may be merging forums and mailing lists if that can be figured out... but thats a topic for IT meetings
*(21:33) <teamcoltra>Zacqary because you can easily not participate and no one notices vs here where you get a big X next to your state
*(21:33) <Sacha>itspara it was a reaction to caleb saying 'mailing lists'
*(21:33) <Sacha>practically instinct no to go NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
*(21:33) <Zacqary>As opposed to logging on just for the sake of being here and then zoning out and not participating in the discussion.
*(21:34) <Sacha>zacqary exactly
*(21:34) <teamcoltra>I personally prefer mailing lists, purely because mailing lists come to me vs me going to a forum
*(21:34) <Zacqary>I've done that some nights honestly.
*(21:34) <Zacqary>Simply because I had nothing to say.
*(21:34) <Sacha>all the pnc needs to do is vote and discuss
*(21:34) <CalebL[laptop]>teamcoltra: there's also RSS/Atom for the forum
*(21:34) <Sacha>we can set aside one day like wednesday and for 24 hours the pnc can vote on it
*(21:34) <Zacqary>It can be a forum that emails you.
*(21:35) <Sacha>forums are perfect for discussion, my only issue is voting
*(21:35) <CalebL[laptop]>and yes, a forum that emails you is what the IT committee's idea is for merging the mailing lists to the forum
*(21:35) <mildbeard>Here is the doodle poll
*(21:35) <Zacqary>Voting can be done asynchronously too. Just set a 24 hour voting period.
*(21:35) <mildbeard>http://doodle.com/z2ytq3br86qf5vhx
*(21:36) <teamcoltra>And just a note to people don't look at the date, just the days
*(21:36) <OrionSteele>i think we should use forums to discuss agenda items and be able to identify things we need to decide about. It would be available all the time and if we work to keep it as an active space it would work well. This would free up time to schedule bi-weekly or monthly meetings to vote on the stuff discussed in the forums
*(21:36) <teamcoltra>and your voting for a time the works best fory ou on that, does not negate us having async meetings
*(21:36) <OrionSteele>the problem with mailing lists for me is that it comes to my mailbox and then gets drowned by all sorts of other stuff and it is very hard for me to keep an organized record of what happens via the mailing list
*(21:36) - VLD joined
*(21:37) <Sacha>good idea orion
*(21:37) <Sacha>i agree with travis's most recent point
*(21:37) <teamcoltra>to vote on a time?
*(21:37) <Sacha>yes
*(21:38) <Sacha>should we move discussion of the specifics of asynchronous meetings to the sexy new forums?
*(21:38) <Sacha>Dey sexy.
*(21:38) <teamcoltra>Maybe if we do async text meetings, we can do voice meetings every other week?
*(21:38) <Sacha>why do voice
*(21:38) <teamcoltra>I really think us all touching base with each other is a good thing, and I honestly prefer voice to IRC any day of the week
*(21:38) <Sacha>I do not see what is so good about it
*(21:38) <teamcoltra>because it's personable Sacha
*(21:39) <OrionSteele>i like voice meetings.
*(21:39) <teamcoltra>it's also much faster
*(21:39) <Sacha>i find it irritating but if I am a minority I can suck it up
*(21:39) <MrSquared>i also like voice meetings
*(21:39) <CalebL[laptop]>Only people that it wouldn't work for, is those with satellite internet
*(21:39) <CalebL[laptop]>But I don't think that's a problem with anyone here
*(21:39) <teamcoltra>Our last voice meeting *(while it was short due to technical problems on my end) was very successful
*(21:40) <Zacqary>Voice meetings are certainly easier for me to keep track of, personally.
*(21:40) <MrSquared>we can mail some cans and string to people with that
*(21:40) <teamcoltra>CalebL[laptop] I used to play XBL in rural alaska on a sat conection
*(21:40) <Zacqary>But I don't think I could do it every week.
*(21:40) <itspara>was that the first one travis? or have there been more?
*(21:40) <teamcoltra>Not every week. It also would be far less formal
*(21:40) <CalebL[laptop]>Hopefully WebRTC will get established in web browsers; because then we could have it from a web browser, and have options for requesting to speak, etc
*(21:40) <teamcoltra>It would be us just talking about our ideas, desires, and such.
*(21:41) <teamcoltra>itspara?
*(21:41) <teamcoltra>Oh yeah, that would be the first and last one
*(21:41) <CalebL[laptop]>Voice meetings may be more difficult to keep records of
*(21:41) <teamcoltra>Yeah CalebL[laptop], though we can record them
*(21:41) <Rush>No voice meetings
*(21:41) <CalebL[laptop]>Considering that we can automate the process in IRC, with an IRC bot
*(21:42) <itspara>we can record them, and someone can type notes as we go
*(21:42) <mildbeard>IRC and forums are good in terms of an audit trail.
*(21:42) <teamcoltra>mumble has built in recording functions
*(21:42) <itspara>if theres any voting we can use a third party tool
*(21:42) <Sacha>We should discuss this in the forums
*(21:42) <Sacha>so we are not here until midnight discussing specifics~
*(21:42) <Sacha>yay sexy new forums!
*(21:43) <teamcoltra>The idea here is that we don't do weekly IRC meetings, we do async meetings on the forums, and then every other week we have a voice conversation using mumble or something
*(21:43) <teamcoltra>the voice meetings would be for touching base, and not be mandatory
*(21:43) <teamcoltra>but would be recorded and open for public record
*(21:43) <itspara>Informal PNC meetings
*(21:43) <CalebL[laptop]>We'd need to revise our Constitution a bit then
*(21:43) <OrionSteele>can someone post link to fourms?
*(21:43) <itspara>http://pirate-party.us/forum
*(21:44) <teamcoltra>http://uspirates.org/forum/
*(21:44) <OrionSteele>thanks
*(21:44) <Rab_K>if not almost mandatory will decline
*(21:45) <teamcoltra>I think the voice meetings would need to be optional.. but those who never show up might get brow beat, and miss out on valuable discussion
*(21:45) <Sacha>brow beat?
*(21:45) <CalebL[laptop]>So then how do we evaluate a state rep's perform of participating in 'async meetings'?
*(21:46) <CalebL[laptop]>performance*
*(21:46) <teamcoltra>http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/browbeat
*(21:46) <teamcoltra>CalebL[laptop] that was my one concern. We will just keep track of their voting
*(21:46) <Sacha>I know what the hell it means, I mean in this context
*(21:47) <mildbeard>lmao
*(21:47) <Sacha>What is your actual concern in the framework of a problem rather than an abstract acknowledgement
*(21:48) <teamcoltra>Okay can we do this in parts so we can move on, as it was said if we try to look at the big picture we will get stuck talking about this all night. First step of just changing our weekly meeting to byweekly meetings. Would any state like to make that into a motion?
*(21:48) <mildbeard>One idea is we can try a bunch of different things and stick only with the ones that work, rather than getting too hung up on objections that may never be an issue.
*(21:48) <teamcoltra>*(since I can't make motions)
*(21:48) <Zacqary>Motion to switch to biweekly meetings
*(21:49) <OrionSteele>second
*(21:49) <mildbeard>biweekly meaning every other week, not twice a week, correct?
*(21:49) <OrionSteele>correct
*(21:49) <Zacqary>Yes
*(21:49) <teamcoltra>mildbeard yes
*(21:49) <Rush>second
*(21:49) <mildbeard>whew
*(21:49) <teamcoltra>Okay so conversation right now is on moving to biweekly meetings. We can discuss further issues later, but so we can be productive is there anyone against having meetings biweekly
*(21:50) <mildbeard>I think it's a great idea, as long as members can make a commitment to actually attend those meetings.
*(21:50) <Sacha>I am against voting on it right now
*(21:50) <Sacha>I think we are running into action
*(21:50) <Sacha>without accurately thinking about what the problems are with the system we have now
*(21:50) <Sacha>it isn't that "we have nothing to talk about"
*(21:51) <Sacha>is a problem which would easily be solved
*(21:51) <mildbeard>No, it's that we have nobody to do the talking.
*(21:51) <CalebL[laptop]>Weekly meetings are sufficient; I don't see why we're spreading it out to biweekly because of meetings being too long..
*(21:51) <Sacha>Will bi-weekly meetings fix that?
*(21:51) <mildbeard>It could go either way.
*(21:51) <teamcoltra>I think we will have more energy and also encourage people to do more of the talking outside of meetings
*(21:51) <Sacha>I agree with Caleb, I think our issues are bigger than just bi-weekly meetings can fix
*(21:52) <CalebL[laptop]>and it'll slow the process of the PNC even further
*(21:52) <OrionSteele>i'd be willing to bet bi-weekly meetings are just as long as the meetings we are having right now, and it would free up some time in the off weeks for us to focus on local projects we have going on
*(21:52) <teamcoltra>Realistically these meetings shouldn't have much discussion. You shouldh ave had the discussion with your state parties and come to hte meetings ready to vote
*(21:52) <mildbeard>It cuts in half our opportunities to get a quorum. It would only help if people actually show up to the biweekly meetings.
*(21:52) <Sacha>Teamcoltra Based on what? What logical train of thought leads you to that conclusion?
*(21:52) <Sacha>orionsteele I agree that it would give us more personal time
*(21:52) <CalebL[laptop]>And we now have the resource of the forum to debate some things in forums, so that meetings aren't as long, so that IRC meetings can run more smoothly
*(21:52) <Sacha>Mildbeard and actively participate,active partipation is an issue
*(21:52) <mildbeard>sacha good point.
*(21:53) <Sacha>also keep in mind that Rab_K suggested this because he cannot make these meetings and times
*(21:53) <teamcoltra>Then he *(and everyone) should fill out the poll http://doodle.com/z2ytq3br86qf5vhx#table
*(21:53) <Sacha>this does nothing to solve the issue of having a mode of communication that cuts interested people out
*(21:53) <teamcoltra>and tell us when does work
*(21:53) <teamcoltra>Because right now the poll is saying Wednesday but moving it to earlier Wed
*(21:54) <Sacha>Teamcoltra, thank you for posting that link could you please add it to the header in here and to the uspp
*(21:54) <Sacha>I will put it in the forums if you would rather not
*(21:54) <Sacha>That solves one problem
*(21:54) <Rab_K>*(i don't expect everyone to accomodate me btw, although it would be neat to be involved in pnc mtg)
*(21:54) <OrionSteele>well to be fair they aren't exactly easy for us to make every week either. We've had trouble the last month because we have meetings on monday, our video show on thursday, PNC meetings wednesday and we travel on the weekends so that's the reason i'm in favor of it.
*(21:55) <OrionSteele>as we get bigger and coordinate with regional parts of CAPP it will be harder bc we have to hold meetings with them too
*(21:55) <Sacha>Rab_K Everyone in here deserves to be accomodated equally so please don't worry about that imo
*(21:55) <OrionSteele>and none of that includes meeting with people who aren't members of PP to try to get them to become involved
*(21:55) <Sacha>Orionsteele I understand that but I think that your's is a special case
*(21:55) <teamcoltra>Especially Idaho. :P
*(21:55) <Sacha>I think that asynchronous meetings would also solve your issue
*(21:55) <Rab_K>most Tuesdays I coud find a way
*(21:56) <teamcoltra>Sacha this wouldn't negate having asynchronous meetings
*(21:56) <CalebL[laptop]>We need to have some form of predictable voting times however
*(21:56) <Sacha>Teamcoltra that is beside my point. My original point is that we should 1. Identify the issue
*(21:56) <teamcoltra>this is just step one for us to agree that us all coming together and meeting at once should happen less frequently. We can still make bylaws or whatnot to have async meetings too
*(21:56) <CalebL[laptop]>but I'm getting off topic
*(21:56) <Sacha>2. Identify an action that would solve the issue
*(21:57) <OrionSteele>thats true...i guess if i strip away our circumstances in our state my biggest problem with the PNC meetings is the inefficiency of this format. it takes so long to make a motion and vote on something that we are here for a long time and don't decide much, i agree that this is the larger problem and we need to be able to streamline things
*(21:57) <Sacha>Orionsteele Exactly and I think that is a huge issue
*(21:57) <Sacha>Not to sound like a broken record but we should use
*(21:57) <Sacha>the new sexy forums to discuss this at length
*(21:57) <Sacha>and give something that is so completely important to every member of uspp, all due consideration
*(21:57) <Sacha>and not rush a vote
*(21:58) <Sacha>just to move things along
*(21:58) <teamcoltra>Exactly Sacha, use the forums, discuss things at length. Then every two weeks, come together hold quick official votes on things -- bobs your uncle
*(21:58) <itspara>"Sexy" new forums could allow a better discussion because of the more steady pace...
*(21:58) <mildbeard>I'm not allowed to post in the forums...
*(21:58) <Sacha>Teamcoltra if after due discussion we come to that conclusion than I am happy
*(21:58) <Sacha>mildbeard did you register?
*(21:58) <Sacha>You have to do that because it is a completely new forum
*(21:59) <teamcoltra>Sacha this /is/ that discussion
*(21:59) <Sacha>teamcoltra we do not have time to go through all the details
*(21:59) <Zacqary>Honestly I think the classic bulletin-board style of forum isn't the best method either. Ideally I'd like something that can morph between real-tme and async discussion depending on who's logged in. Kinda like Wave but not as overcomplicated. Only challenge is that I'm not sure such software exists.
*(21:59) <mildbeard>ah, it let me now - just a glitch.
*(21:59) <Sacha>we have other things to discuss and this is too important
*(21:59) <Sacha>to shove into an hour or even two and rush due to being tired
*(21:59) <Sacha>How about this
*(21:59) <Sacha>a vote on discussing it now or going to the forums
*(22:00) <Sacha>then we can see how everyone feels and go for it
*(22:00) <Sacha>of course the previous motion would need to be taken back
*(22:00) <Zacqary>Motion to move this discussion to the forums
*(22:00) <teamcoltra>Zacqary
*(22:00) <teamcoltra>you need to revoke your previous motion first
*(22:00) <Zacqary>Blah blah previous motion revoked formality etc etc motion to move this to the forums
*(22:00) <teamcoltra>You can't have to concurrent motions
*(22:01) <Zacqary>God these order rules are byzantine
*(22:01) <Sacha>Zacqary I may have just fallen in loe with you.
*(22:01) <Sacha>love*
*(22:01) <itspara>cant you table a motion and go to another?
*(22:01) <teamcoltra>Yeah, realistically we can't just "revoke" it... we need to vote to table it. Which would be the best vote in this option anyway
*(22:01) <itspara>or am I getting confused with charges in a courtroom?
*(22:01) <teamcoltra>THe reason is so that we can't just move past a motion that the body has moved and seconded
*(22:02) <teamcoltra>it doesn't belong to anyone, it belongs to the floor
*(22:02) <Sacha>Omfg starting a discussion in pnc about killing robert's rules
*(22:02) <teamcoltra>Anyway I am going to accept Zacqary's motion as a motion to table this discussion until next week and have it further on the forums
*(22:02) <teamcoltra>does anyone second it?
*(22:03) <mildbeard>second
*(22:03) <teamcoltra>Okay all in favour of tabling this say aye, if you would like to discuss it further say nay
*(22:03) <Zacqary>AYE
*(22:04) <mildbeard>aye
*(22:04) <CalebL[laptop]>aye
*(22:04) <Rush>aye
*(22:04) <OrionSteele>aye
*(22:04) <itspara>AYE
*(22:04) <teamcoltra>calling the vote
*(22:05) <teamcoltra>Sacha can you please tally
*(22:05) <Sacha>yes, 1 sec
*(22:05) <Sacha>4 aye, 1 at large
*(22:05) <teamcoltra>Okay so then back to reports - the IT Committe is up first CalebL[laptop]
*(22:06) <Zacqary>I think if everyone said aye we can safely assume it passes
*(22:06) <CalebL[laptop]>So, for the IT committee, we've now got the forum live and public.
*(22:06) <mildbeard>yay
*(22:06) <CalebL[laptop]>As well as established the layout for the forum
*(22:06) <CalebL[laptop]>The mailing lists shall later be merged to the forum, once we figure a reasonable means of doing so *(while keeping close to a mailing list format, for the mailing list end)
*(22:07) - Rush quit *(Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
*(22:07) <CalebL[laptop]>A new theme is being developed, which closely emulates the feel of the current theme, but with some improvements
*(22:07) <CalebL[laptop]>We're awaiting on Travis for new content
*(22:07) <CalebL[laptop]>Once we have the content and theme, we'll be able to put a new iteration of the website live.
*(22:08) <CalebL[laptop]>We also just today register uspirates.org as an alternate domain, as we've been having problems in regards of who owns the domain and granting access
*(22:09) <CalebL[laptop]>And that's most of it
*(22:09) - Rab_K is now known as Rab_K_
*(22:09) <teamcoltra>Sweet
*(22:09) <teamcoltra>Convention Committee
*(22:09) <teamcoltra>who was on the committee outside of the Wisconsin team
*(22:09) <Sacha>What about bylaws committee and officially dissolving it
*(22:10) <Sacha>also deamon but he has been sketchy and busy lately
*(22:10) <teamcoltra>We will get to it, I missed it
*(22:10) <Sacha>Teamcoltra which is why I wanted to remind you ;)
*(22:10) <teamcoltra>But first convention committee? anyone?
*(22:11) <mildbeard>Perhaps we should press ctrl-alt-del on the convention committee and try a do-over?
*(22:11) <CalebL[laptop]>I don't think there's been anyone representing the convention committee for several meetings straight now
*(22:11) <teamcoltra>CalebL[laptop] I remember you were working with them on the website for the convention or something, eh?
*(22:11) <CalebL[laptop]>Not at all; I don't recall such
*(22:11) <teamcoltra>mildbeard yes
*(22:11) <Sacha>I do not recall that either
*(22:12) <teamcoltra>well
*(22:12) <Sacha>What is the purpose of the convention committee?
*(22:12) <mildbeard>Elections
*(22:12) - Brady joined
*(22:12) <Sacha>I personally think it should be the responsibility of the present officers
*(22:12) <teamcoltra>I don't want to do it over. This goes to prove my point about force creating committees. Let's just do this with the PNC itself. I think we can throw together an election
*(22:12) <Sacha>the only third party person that needs to be involved is someone not running
*(22:12) <mildbeard>Why not just schedule nominations for our next meeting and elections for the succeeding meeting?
*(22:12) <Sacha>wat mildbeard said
*(22:12) <teamcoltra>But it would be my suggestion that we talk over the details of how we are going to do the elections and then have something ready by next meeting
*(22:13) <CalebL[laptop]>We need to have infrastructure for voting though
*(22:13) <Sacha>let us use sexy new forums!!
*(22:13) <Sacha>Srsly. The uses are endless people.
*(22:13) <Sacha>Abuse them. Use them. Show them who is boss.
*(22:13) <teamcoltra>I am not going to trust the voting system to forums that none of us have used yet *(no offense to the IT team)
*(22:14) <teamcoltra>err it's not my call, but it's my strong recommendation to not vote using the forums
*(22:14) <Sacha>I mean to discuss how to vote
*(22:14) <itspara>Actually... I believe you can do polling on the forums... unless caleb turned that off
*(22:14) <teamcoltra>oh yeah for that for sure, we should use the hell out of the forums for discussing how to do it
*(22:14) <mildbeard>forum polling wouldn't enforce our voting rules.
*(22:14) <CalebL[laptop]>Polling can be done. I just don't believe in silly little integers in a database that can be easily manipulated with no authenticity.
*(22:14) <teamcoltra>However, I think we can at least open up nominations to be done next week.
*(22:14) <mildbeard>Probably anybody, not just members could vote.
*(22:14) <teamcoltra>That means in the meantime we can figure out how elections will be held
*(22:14) <itspara>It could work... but it may not be the best method *(since we don't want people outside of the pnc voting, and we want to prevent fraud)
*(22:14) <Sacha>I agree with teamcoltra
*(22:15) <CalebL[laptop]>Perhaps we need an election committee? xP
*(22:15) <mildbeard>So should we have a motion to set the deadline for officer nominations as next week's meeting?
*(22:15) <CalebL[laptop]>Just to give people a reason and structure to discuss it
*(22:15) <teamcoltra>I also own the server that the votes would be cast too... and obviously I know I wouldn't tamper with it, but I feel uncomfortable with the thought people might think I could
*(22:15) <teamcoltra>cast to*
*(22:15) <itspara>We could use limesurvey and individually give "survey" access to people by email
*(22:15) <Sacha>I was bold and made a thread about elections just now
*(22:15) <CalebL[laptop]>We also have to figure out who is eligible for voting
*(22:16) <Sacha>Mildbeard I think we should
*(22:16) <teamcoltra>Would someone like to make a motion that in the meantime nominations must be presented to the PNC at next weeks meeting?
*(22:16) <teamcoltra>*(or before by emailing the SAB)
*(22:18) <CalebL[laptop]>Point of Order: do we have quorum?
*(22:18) <Sacha>caleb yes we do
*(22:18) <Sacha>just barely
*(22:18) <mildbeard>I move that nominations be submitted either on SAB or at next week's meeting, and with a deadline of next week's meeting regardless of how they are submitted.
*(22:19) <teamcoltra>second?
*(22:19) <Zacqary>Secodn
*(22:19) <Zacqary>SECOND
*(22:19) <Zacqary>ff
*(22:19) <teamcoltra>Anyone against this?
*(22:19) <OrionSteele>nope
*(22:19) <MrSquared>nope
*(22:19) <CalebL[laptop]>Honestly. People. Pay attention to the screen.
*(22:20) <teamcoltra>Okay well then let's just vote
*(22:20) <Zacqary>Hence the problem with this format of meeting, Caleb.
*(22:20) <CalebL[laptop]>We could go so much faster if everyone wasn't multitasking
*(22:20) <teamcoltra>all in favour
*(22:20) <CalebL[laptop]>aye
*(22:20) <MrSquared>aye
*(22:20) <OrionSteele>aye
*(22:20) <Zacqary>Aye
*(22:20) <mildbeard>aye
*(22:21) <teamcoltra>Called
*(22:21) <Sacha>4 for, .5 at large for
*(22:21) <teamcoltra>It looks like it passed but Sacha makes the final tally
*(22:21) <teamcoltra>Okay next
*(22:21) <teamcoltra>Sacha the bylaw committee was dissolved, yes?
*(22:21) <Sacha>we should also vote about dissolving convention committee
*(22:21) <Sacha>Teamcoltra, do we have automatic dissolution?
*(22:21) <Sacha>or do we need to vote on it?
*(22:22) <Sacha>1 sec
*(22:22) <Sacha>TO THE BYLAWS
*(22:22) <mildbeard>I think we need a motion...
*(22:22) <Zacqary>Motion to dissolve the bylaws committee
*(22:22) <Zacqary>Aye
*(22:22) <Zacqary>Oh wait we're not voting yet
*(22:22) <Zacqary>Well aye
*(22:22) <Sacha>needs a vote to dissolve
*(22:23) <teamcoltra>anyone second Zacqary ?
*(22:23) <CalebL[laptop]>Can I second a motion, despite being at-large?
*(22:23) <OrionSteele>second
*(22:23) <Zacqary>I'm going to travel forward in time to when someone seconds it and vote aye
*(22:25) <teamcoltra>Zacqary I will make an effort to move faster, but we also need to follow some basic structure
*(22:25) - Rab_K_ quit *(Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
*(22:25) <teamcoltra>All in favour of dissolution?
*(22:25) <CalebL[laptop]>Aye
*(22:25) <Zacqary>Aye
*(22:25) <MrSquared>aye
*(22:25) <OrionSteele>aye
*(22:25) <mildbeard>aye
*(22:25) <teamcoltra>Called
*(22:25) <teamcoltra>It passes Sacha can verify
*(22:25) <teamcoltra>next
*(22:25) <teamcoltra>Creation of Content Committee
*(22:25) <teamcoltra>Whose motion is this?
*(22:25) <CalebL[laptop]>No idea
*(22:25) <CalebL[laptop]>Sacha, I assume
*(22:25) <mildbeard>Sounds like mine.
*(22:26) <teamcoltra>mildbeard go ahead
*(22:26) <mildbeard>the idea was to have a specific committee that would be responsible for coordinating anyone who wants to provide content to the site, and for signing off on content in the event that there is any doubt if it is appropriate.
*(22:27) <teamcoltra>Anyone want to second the motion of creating a content committee *(this just opens up debate, not lead to a vote)
*(22:27) <mildbeard>My idea is that this would be a "lean and mean" thing and accountable to the PNC if anyone thought it wasn't going well.
*(22:27) <Sacha>no can we talk about it first
*(22:27) <Sacha>I had ideas
*(22:27) <Sacha>oh and can at large speak
*(22:27) <mildbeard>Move to create a content committee, accountable to the PNC and responsible for providing and approving content submitted to the site.
*(22:27) <CalebL[laptop]>Discussion comes after a second
*(22:28) <CalebL[laptop]>and I know I can speak, but I'm saying if I can second a motion or not
*(22:28) <Zacqary>Second
*(22:29) <CalebL[laptop]>Any discussion?
*(22:29) <teamcoltra>I dislike the idea of creating this committee
*(22:29) <Sacha>Yeah, I talked about in the wiki
*(22:29) <teamcoltra>just like I was against creating a convention committee.
*(22:29) <teamcoltra>When you don't let committees form organically they never work
*(22:29) <Sacha>Teamcoltra my guess is be bold and you will use convention committee as an example
*(22:29) <CalebL[laptop]>The role of content should be of whom is responsible of the public image of the party *(Chair, I believe)
*(22:29) <Sacha>I disagree
*(22:29) <teamcoltra>Sacha what committee HAS worked?
*(22:30) <teamcoltra>Bylaws committee failed
*(22:30) <CalebL[laptop]>If people have suggestions for content, then they can shove it to Travis and get it approved
*(22:30) <teamcoltra>Constitional Committee failed
*(22:30) <CalebL[laptop]>And done
*(22:30) <mildbeard>the IT committee has worked.
*(22:30) <Sacha>Teamcoltra The committee that made this, the bylaws committee, the constitution committee, the bylaws committee
*(22:30) <teamcoltra>the Convention Committee failed
*(22:30) <Sacha>it depends on the people
*(22:30) <mildbeard>The constitutional committee did not fail.
*(22:30) <Sacha>not how it is created
*(22:30) <Sacha>Mildbeard all of those were a success
*(22:30) <CalebL[laptop]>Argument of the bylaws committee is that it wasn't really a formal committee. Just to people talking over IM likely.
*(22:30) <teamcoltra>mildbeard that's fair, but it did pander off there for a good few weeks
*(22:30) <CalebL[laptop]>two people8
*(22:30) <CalebL[laptop]>*
*(22:31) <Sacha>Caleb bullshit, it was a committee
*(22:31) <Sacha>and we had four people
*(22:31) <CalebL[laptop]>IRC channel, mailing list, formal meetings?
*(22:31) <Sacha>Caleb all of the above
*(22:31) <Sacha>formal meetings were called up in IRC when I pulled people into #uspp-bylaws
*(22:31) <Sacha>or #bylaws
*(22:32) <Zacqary>Only a mailing list is necessary or a functioning committee, as I proved with the Constitution Committee.
*(22:32) <Zacqary>Yeah, I screwed up with the bylaws because my personal life exploded around that time.
*(22:32) <teamcoltra>I am not against having this committee. I am just asking that the people who want to be in this committee just come together and start making content for the website.
*(22:32) <Zacqary>But I will be damned if formal meetings are a requirement for getting anything done.
*(22:32) <Zacqary>I mean, look at this meeting.
*(22:32) <Sacha>Teamcoltra that was my idea because I am already doing that.
*(22:32) <Sacha>But you had to interrupt me.
*(22:32) <teamcoltra>Sacha then perfect the committee isn't needed
*(22:33) <teamcoltra>atleast not officially
*(22:33) <CalebL[laptop]>But yes, teamcoltra makes a good point. Committees should already be doing their work, in order to prove their purpose and activeness
*(22:33) <mildbeard>I'm personally volunteering to act as chair of the content committee.
*(22:33) <Zacqary>It's IRC. There's no such thing as an interruption.
*(22:33) <Sacha>Zacqary I know, I was just pointing out that Travis didn't give anyone a chance to speak up about it
*(22:33) <CalebL[laptop]>And no, what I listed are not required. It's just things that show whether something is structured or not
*(22:34) <Sacha>Teamcoltra I talked to kusi abot putting this on the agenda in uspp sometime because it is good to say this committee will exist
*(22:34) <Sacha>flock to it my brothers
*(22:34) <Sacha>and the biggest reason why I want it
*(22:34) <Zacqary>Sometimes structure is overrated.
*(22:34) <teamcoltra>mildbeard so my suggestion stands, and I say this with respect because I know you do a lot of shit and do get shit done: get a group of people together and start working on things and show this board that the content committee should be a fully recognized part of this board
*(22:34) <Zacqary>Adhocracy works.
*(22:34) <Sacha>is so that caleb will stop asking you to do it
*(22:34) <CalebL[laptop]>Then why are people bickering over having a special shiny label of being considered a committee with no special status? xP
*(22:35) <Zacqary>I know, right?
*(22:35) <Sacha>Caleb we're not
*(22:35) <mildbeard>teamcoltra - in that case I'm going to start telling people that they need to go through the content committee if they want to add anything to the site. Does anyone here object to that?
*(22:35) <teamcoltra>Yes
*(22:35) <Sacha>what I am bickering about is that I do not want to do a whole bunch of work, and then have the PNC come in and go JK NEW COMMITTEE LISTEN TO THEM
*(22:35) <Zacqary>As chair of the Constitution Committee I hereby apologize for allowing anything about committees to go in that damn thing.
*(22:36) <Sacha>Zacqary Calm down. I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about.
*(22:36) <Sacha>The only use for a committee isn't to have a shiny label
*(22:36) <CalebL[laptop]>So then what about "BE BOLD" and just doing the work?
*(22:36) <teamcoltra>The idea is that a single body should not just be god of the content... not yet at least. That's my point, just make content and send it to me / kusi or the PNC and we will approve it for now, just like anyone can do
*(22:36) <Sacha>and to dismiss people's concerns about structure because you are unconcerned is dismissive
*(22:36) <CalebL[laptop]>Rather than complaining over a label?
*(22:36) <Sacha>What you are asking for
*(22:36) <Sacha>is for people to willingly take on the short stick
*(22:37) <Sacha>so the PNC doesn't have to
*(22:37) <Sacha>1. Do all the work
*(22:37) <Sacha>with 2. No guarantee that it will even be accepted
*(22:37) <Sacha>3. If people question your authority you have fucking none
*(22:37) <Sacha>4. No oversight and no guarantee that your ideas will be accepted
*(22:37) <Sacha>the PNC controls the website officially
*(22:37) <CalebL[laptop]>This isn't touchy-feeling camp where we approve your content because we feel bad for you.
*(22:38) <CalebL[laptop]>It's about who generates sufficient content period
*(22:38) <CalebL[laptop]>If people have issues with the Chair's decisions, then get a new chair
*(22:38) <Sacha>that is the stupidest thing I have heard of
*(22:38) <CalebL[laptop]>rather than electing someone that doesn't represent you
*(22:38) <Sacha>A leader is the final word
*(22:38) <Sacha>that doesn't mean don't speak
*(22:38) <Sacha>shut u
*(22:38) <Sacha>up*
*(22:39) <Sacha>and if you disagree
*(22:39) <mildbeard>I'm going to withdraw my motion. I'm satisfied with the general idea that we have basic approval to have a content committee on an ad-hoc basis without needing to be formally appointed by the PNC.
*(22:39) <Zacqary>Thank you. Srsly people just do stuff.
*(22:39) <Sacha>I hope you have fun with that
*(22:40) <Zacqary>I'm sure they will.
*(22:40) <CalebL[laptop]>Point of Order: can there be two at-larges for a state? I have another from my state that may want to speak at times
*(22:40) <teamcoltra>What I am going to do for a happy middle ground, is to extend my authority to approve content for the website to mildbeard *(as well as Zacqary, MrSquared, Rush, and OrionSteele) as individuals. This way there is no bottle neck, if any of those people give your content the thumbs up, it can go on the website.
*(22:40) <teamcoltra>they have all been active members of the party and I trust their judgement fully
*(22:40) <OrionSteele>ok
*(22:41) <Zacqary>Well thank you.
*(22:41) <Zacqary>I appreciate that.
*(22:41) <teamcoltra>Okay so now next topic?
*(22:41) <CalebL[laptop]>So shall they pester the IT committee folk *(myself) to make the content changes, or should access be granted?
*(22:41) <teamcoltra>CalebL[laptop] give them all access
*(22:42) <CalebL[laptop]>Noted
*(22:42) * teamcoltra let's them eat cake
*(22:42) <teamcoltra>;)
*(22:42) <CalebL[laptop]>So, any response to my prompt? xP
*(22:42) <CalebL[laptop]>regarding: <CalebL[laptop]> Point of Order: can there be two at-larges for a state? I have another from my state that may want to speak at times
*(22:42) <teamcoltra>CalebL[laptop] we have never really gotten into this although I do see it as an issue
*(22:43) <mildbeard>You can have an at-large representative and an alternate. the alternate only does anything if the primary rep is not present.
*(22:43) <teamcoltra>if you guys can work together, then I would suggest that you guys just take turns.
*(22:43) <teamcoltra>If you guys are in conflict I think the PNC would have to decide
*(22:43) <Sacha>teamcoltra it is in the constitution or the bylaws that you can't
*(22:43) <Sacha>one state one voice unless you are an officer
*(22:43) <CalebL[laptop]>And if not, can a person without any status speak?
*(22:44) <teamcoltra>CalebL[laptop] when called upon just like any at-large *(or at least that's how I would enforce it without reading the rules)
*(22:44) <teamcoltra>but one state, one vote thats the key part here.
*(22:44) <CalebL[laptop]>Because I'm not sure if efk has anything to add. Otherwise proceed
*(22:44) <teamcoltra>Also we try to make sure that one state isn't overwhelming the debate... but again I would just have to play that by ear
*(22:44) <efk>Nothing at this time.
*(22:45) <CalebL[laptop]>Understood
*(22:45) <teamcoltra>Okay next topic: Amending the Constitution for IT Standards
*(22:45) <teamcoltra>CalebL[laptop] brought this up *(though remember it will need a state to make the motion if we want it)
*(22:45) <teamcoltra>CalebL[laptop] go ahead
*(22:45) <CalebL[laptop]>actually I didn't bring it up in this verbage. xP
*(22:46) <CalebL[laptop]>I was just emphasizing that I was envisioning for the IT committee to form IT standards, and have the PNC vote on it, just like any other motion.
*(22:46) <teamcoltra>Your suggestions require a constitional amendment to add your requirements to the state eligibility requirements
*(22:46) <CalebL[laptop]>This is a good point
*(22:46) <Sacha>Was it even decided if they will be requirements or suggestions
*(22:46) - Rab joined
*(22:46) <Sacha>a suggestion will not being in the state membership requirements
*(22:47) <CalebL[laptop]>I think there should be requirements, but that authority should be rarely used
*(22:47) <Sacha>why should there be requirements
*(22:47) <mildbeard>What specific rules would you suggest?
*(22:47) <CalebL[laptop]>For proper handling of personal information
*(22:48) <teamcoltra>CalebL[laptop] could you lay it out as exactly how you would like it to be voted on?
*(22:48) <CalebL[laptop]>Such as for recording private information for financial contributions, etc
*(22:49) <mildbeard>Well, we have a core value already about personal privacy. And no state can be admitted that doesn't adhere to that core value. Also, a lot of that comes under the heading of election laws. So I'm wondering what aspects of this aren't already covered?
*(22:49) <CalebL[laptop]>Well, I envision that the IT committee would simply be for forming the standards, there doesn't necessarily need to be oversight within the committee
*(22:50) <CalebL[laptop]>mildbeard: specific approved encryption algorithms, code security audits, etc
*(22:50) <CalebL[laptop]>I think election laws are fairly vague, such as being "oh, just make sure it's 'secure'" and nothing more
*(22:51) <mildbeard>Hmm.
*(22:51) <CalebL[laptop]>while a person could be using null encryption and MD4 hashing. xP
*(22:51) <Sacha>Unless the IT group is willing
*(22:51) <Sacha>to go in there and do it for every single state
*(22:51) <Sacha>I think it is unfair to do so
*(22:52) <CalebL[laptop]>Code audits would be for things that collect private information
*(22:52) <CalebL[laptop]>And most of the software tools are used the same across states
*(22:52) <Rab>the states can be helped by the best minds available via uspp
*(22:52) <Sacha>If you will personally guarantee that you will help every single state party and potential party that struggles with it to be up to code
*(22:52) <Sacha>Then I am fine with it
*(22:52) <CalebL[laptop]>So it's a matter of auditing the choices, as well as any custom made solutions
*(22:53) <mildbeard>This is a very valid point, but I am not sure that it is the kind of thing that we should be putting in the Constitution. I'd be much more comfortable having it in the bylaws.
*(22:53) <Sacha>Rab that isn't a guarantee, I dislike vague assumptions that help will be provided by vague people
*(22:53) <CalebL[laptop]>But yes, I forgot to emphasize: what I'm speaking of is things that would be of requirement status; while there would still be some things that are recommendations as well
*(22:53) <Rab>good point Sacha
*(22:53) <Sacha>Mildbeard I personally feel that it was be prohibitive to people starting parties when they do not have backend knowledge of websites
*(22:54) <CalebL[laptop]>There shouldn't be any wording that's specific to the IT committee in the Constitution, I believe
*(22:54) <mildbeard>sacha that's also a valid concern.
*(22:54) <CalebL[laptop]>But we'll very likely be proving that infrastructure managed for the states
*(22:54) <CalebL[laptop]>providing*
*(22:54) <CalebL[laptop]>of hosting and so on
*(22:54) <Sacha>Very likely is a could in the sky
*(22:54) <Sacha>it leaves the option of failure
*(22:55) <CalebL[laptop]>and if you can't securely handle information, you shouldn't be collecting it
*(22:55) <Sacha>That is a personal opinion which should not be a requirement of becoming a state party
*(22:55) <teamcoltra>Sacha, seriously?
*(22:55) <Sacha>Yeah, seriously
*(22:55) <mildbeard>We should take this seriously. We are supposed to be THE party of privacy online. We definitely should be trying to act in a way that would be a model for others to emulate.
*(22:55) <Sacha>I think we should
*(22:55) <Sacha>which should mean give people the ability to do it, help them to do it
*(22:56) <Sacha>Don't expect them to do it and then punish them if they do not know how
*(22:56) <itspara>privacy everywhere, not just online
*(22:56) <teamcoltra>Sacha if you don't know how, then don't collect the information
*(22:56) <itspara>but yeah
*(22:56) <Sacha>I'm highly in favor of suggestions
*(22:56) <teamcoltra>If you don't know how, reach out to someone who will help you
*(22:56) <Sacha>Teamcoltra would not a registration form be a collection of information?
*(22:56) <Sacha>teamcoltra And if no one answers?
*(22:56) - VLD quit *(Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
*(22:57) <Sacha>No one is required to answer or help.
*(22:57) <CalebL[laptop]>Because honestly, next thing someone will be doing is using a Google Docs form for collecting donations with storing credit card numbers and CVCs *(NEVER TO BE STORED) in plaintext
*(22:57) <CalebL[laptop]>and that would be a massive liability
*(22:57) <Sacha>Not a liability to the PNC caleb
*(22:57) <Sacha>only to themselves
*(22:57) <mildbeard>we need to have an approach that splits the difference: that guarantees that we aren't mishandling anyone's private information, while at the same time not being an obstacle to growing the party into new states.
*(22:57) <CalebL[laptop]>A liability to our public image as a whole
*(22:57) <Zacqary>It's a liability to the entire notion of the Pirate Party
*(22:57) <mildbeard>Sacha yes it's a liability to the PNC.
*(22:57) <Rab>never underestimate the power of cluelessness
*(22:57) <teamcoltra>Of course, we do need to have different levels of security. If a person wants to create a form to collect name, zipcode, email address that shouldn't be forced to be encrypted or something
*(22:58) <Sacha>Caleb ony as long as it takes each state to come out and say we're fine and here is what we are doing
*(22:58) <Sacha>Like I said
*(22:58) <Sacha>if you are not providing a guaranteed resource
*(22:58) <Sacha>that will help people come into line with your requirements
*(22:58) <Sacha>that is simply unfair
*(22:58) <teamcoltra>Sacha then you are going to have to learn on your own, or not do it
*(22:58) <CalebL[laptop]>It's REALLY not that hard to audit them
*(22:58) <Zacqary>So let's guarantee it then. Why do we have a national body at all if we're not going to provide assistance to each other?
*(22:59) <CalebL[laptop]>We don't have to host it for them to audit it; but it makes it dead simple.
*(22:59) <Sacha>teamcoltra Proved my point. I was expecting you to say that.
*(22:59) <teamcoltra>:) I appreciate you expect that I am going to say intelligent things
*(22:59) <Sacha>Teamcoltra Cute. You know exactly what I meant.
*(23:00) <Sacha>I agree with Zacqary
*(23:00) <CalebL[laptop]>But they still have to be accountable to the standards
*(23:00) <mildbeard>This polarization of the argument is pointless and childish.
*(23:00) <Sacha>If it is so easy
*(23:00) <Sacha>then just be a guaranteed resource
*(23:00) <mildbeard>There's no need for it to be one or the other.
*(23:00) <mildbeard>It can be both.
*(23:00) <Sacha>Mildbeard okay, what is your suggestion
*(23:00) <teamcoltra>mildbeard elaborate?
*(23:00) <mildbeard>First, this shouldn't be a constitutional amendment.
*(23:01) <mildbeard>Let's ask the IT committee to come up with an auditing standard and a set of questions that can be asked when a state applies for membership.
*(23:01) <mildbeard>we have flexibility because it's still a majority vote.
*(23:01) <Sacha>mildbeard the requirements for being a membership are in the constitution, it would not make sense to have it elsewhere.
*(23:01) <CalebL[laptop]>It doesn't just end at them becoming a member, that's when they're just forming and have no resources.
*(23:02) <mildbeard>sacha I disagree.
*(23:02) <mildbeard>The PNC has to vote, and we can have questions we ask that aren't in the constitution, and that may influence our votes.
*(23:02) <Sacha>mildbeard fair enough
*(23:03) <mildbeard>calebl[laptop] we should also ask the IT committee to create a set of objective standards for states to follow.
*(23:03) <mildbeard>but we shouldn't impose them retroactively on existing state parties.
*(23:03) <Sacha>and a pledge to provide resources on how to create them
*(23:03) <Sacha>mildbeard disagree
*(23:03) <mildbeard>Let's walk before w efly.
*(23:03) <Sacha>why do old states get a blank state
*(23:03) <teamcoltra>mildbeard - I am not sure about that last part, if security is going to be important, this one should apply to everyone *(and normally I am good on not going retroactive)
*(23:03) <mildbeard>I'm not saying existing states get a blank check.
*(23:04) <teamcoltra>"I am an old party... so I get to store all passwords in plaintext"
*(23:04) <teamcoltra>:D
*(23:04) <mildbeard>However we should proceed incrementally. Don't start as a requirement yet.
*(23:04) <CalebL[laptop]>The PNC represents the states, if a majority of existing states can't meet a standard, and they vote it down, then it's not a standard.
*(23:04) <mildbeard>we will probably learn a lot in the process.
*(23:04) <Sacha>mildbeard why should it be easier for an old party, won't that look worse on our image
*(23:04) <Sacha>since image is the biggest concern voiced
*(23:06) <mildbeard>I'm not saying it should be easier for an old party. The rules should be the same for everyone. Just you need time if you already have a site and you already have written code or implemented stuff. Retrofitting is not an instantateous process.
*(23:06) <CalebL[laptop]>Anyway, as I've stated, standards will be voted in by the PNC. If the standard is too daunting, or if people don't understand it, then all the states shouldn't be sheeple and just vote 'aye'. Simple enough.
*(23:07) <CalebL[laptop]>The IT committee shall have no special status, just simply be for forming these standards and presenting them to the PNC.
*(23:07) <Sacha>Sadly most of the states are sheeple
*(23:07) <mildbeard>We have to balance idealism and realism. Have a strong standard that applies to everyone, but understand that you can't just start kicking out states who are protecting privacy but don't use the same exact standard.
*(23:08) <teamcoltra>Okay what I would like to do is have this tabled, ask the IT Committee to come together on a detailed set of dos and don'ts rulebook they would like to see implemented and we will go from there
*(23:08) <teamcoltra>does that sound good?
*(23:08) <mildbeard>Our first concern should be to grow the party.
*(23:08) <CalebL[laptop]>Good enough
*(23:08) <mildbeard>yes
*(23:08) <Sacha>I agree with that mildbeard which is why i hate this so much
*(23:08) <Zacqary>Sacha when I vote sheepleishly it's because I want the meeting to fucking end. That's a problem with the meeting format, not apathy.
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*(23:08) <CalebL[laptop]>That's a problem with representation. :P
*(23:08) <Sacha>Zacqay still apathy
*(23:08) <CalebL[laptop]>If you're not patient, you shouldn't be a rep
*(23:09) <Sacha>caleb disagree
*(23:09) <Sacha>way disagree
*(23:09) <Sacha>teamcoltra I agree to what you said
*(23:09) <Zacqary>Okay fine bye guys
*(23:09) <CalebL[laptop]>I was at a meeting from 6am to 1am the next day in the same meeting, that's representation
*(23:09) - Zacqary quit *(Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0.1/20120905151427])
*(23:09) <teamcoltra>QuazarGuy are you really here?
*(23:09) <QuazarGuy>pad is private
*(23:09) <teamcoltra>sweet
*(23:09) - teamcoltra set mode: +v QuazarGuy
*(23:09) <teamcoltra>right on time
*(23:09) <QuazarGuy>what's up?
*(23:09) <teamcoltra>https://pnc.piratenpad.de/PNC-10-17-12
*(23:09) <QuazarGuy>Jeff Talada, WA
*(23:10) <teamcoltra>that shouldn't be private
*(23:10) <Sacha>caleb a narrow view of representation, but feel free to continue to disregard people's contributions based on your own subjective definition
*(23:10) <teamcoltra>I didn't set it so I don't know but other people are in it
*(23:10) <itspara>i do hope you got breaks caleb
*(23:10) <Sacha>hi jeff
*(23:10) <QuazarGuy>works now
*(23:10) <CalebL[laptop]>itspara: barely. Almost missed a vote by running off to get food, when a candidate was giving a speech
*(23:11) <teamcoltra>Okay since we cannot have a vote on the last issue because it would not reach quorum we are just going to automatically table it
*(23:11) <CalebL[laptop]>It was a Congressional District convention for official nomination of candidates
*(23:11) <teamcoltra>*(there are only 3 people who saw the conversation who can vote to quorum, since QuazarGuy wasn't there)
*(23:11) <teamcoltra>next topic *PNC State Rep Absence
*(23:11) <Sacha>we hae quorum
*(23:11) <Sacha>ohh nvm
*(23:12) <teamcoltra>Whose agenda item is this?
*(23:12) <CalebL[laptop]>Mine
*(23:12) <CalebL[laptop]>So yes, if we have things in the Constitution, we should be enforcing them accordingly. Oklahoma has been probationary for 12 meetings now
*(23:12) <teamcoltra>CalebL[laptop] - technically your motions would go into AOB but it's the last item anyway
*(23:13) <CalebL[laptop]>You mentioned to have it as an official point instead of AOB, anyway
*(23:13) <CalebL[laptop]>Here's the meeting attendance: https://docs.google.com/a/techsanity.us/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgWyxuBB8Bi-dC1TMFVTQnpMNFpIc0tnNmRtamlpZXc#gid=0
*(23:13) <Sacha>caleb at-large is not allowed to put things as agenda
*(23:13) <teamcoltra>:P We will discuss it later, just go on
*(23:14) <CalebL[laptop]><CalebL[laptop]> Travis; shall I add my point about PNC State Rep Absence to AOB?
*(23:14) <CalebL[laptop]><teamcoltra> No make it a full point
*(23:14) <teamcoltra>*(note that CalebL[laptop]'s list is in reverse chronological
*(23:14) <CalebL[laptop]>Correct
*(23:14) <Sacha>caleb, you are at large, we are not allowed to discuss it w/o it being in aoB or with permission
*(23:14) <teamcoltra>CalebL[laptop] again, I am saying we will discuss it later. I am sure I did, but I was being stupid but now isn't the time to discuss where it goes)
*(23:14) <CalebL[laptop]>It's been well over a month, as is the cutoff for probationary status, regarding Oklahoma
*(23:15) <teamcoltra>Sacha, CalebL[laptop], everyone we ware not discussing if it should be discussed, we are just dicussing the point
*(23:15) <Sacha>teamcoltra okay
*(23:15) <Sacha>Then we shouldn't discuss it at another meeting
*(23:15) <Sacha>ok quit the PNC and hasn't come back
*(23:15) <CalebL[laptop]>Alternately, I was going to be an asshat and call for California to be put to probationary status, for being absent for many meetings
*(23:15) <Sacha>bro is done
*(23:16) <CalebL[laptop]>and Washington is liable as well
*(23:16) <Sacha>Caleb do you still want to?
*(23:16) <teamcoltra>I don't think you are being a jerk for following the rules
*(23:16) <Sacha>I would personally rather change to probation status
*(23:16) <teamcoltra>these are not personal attacks
*(23:16) <teamcoltra>these are wakeup calls to the states who are affected
*(23:16) <QuazarGuy>I would like to add, that it is very likely once all bureaucracy is in place meeting will become very rare
*(23:16) <Sacha>also wat teamcoltra said as it was true, until the last point
*(23:16) <CalebL[laptop]>And that's why I want these enforced
*(23:16) <mildbeard>I think attendance is important. We want to be careful not to kick out all of our member states thugh.
*(23:17) <Sacha>I do not think attendance is important
*(23:17) <Sacha>what are the major things that the pnc has produced
*(23:17) <mildbeard>We should modify our process to make it more inclusive.
*(23:17) <teamcoltra>I actually think we removed Oklahoma as a member CalebL[laptop]
*(23:17) <Sacha>and who produced them
*(23:17) <Sacha>teamcoltra no we didn't
*(23:17) <teamcoltra>after putting them on probation
*(23:17) <CalebL[laptop]>So if we can't hold meetings do to lack of quorum, and state reps not representing their states, then there certainly are issues
*(23:17) <teamcoltra>because there was big todo about it
*(23:18) <Sacha>calebL the resolution shouldn't be to kick out states
*(23:18) <mildbeard>The argument that the PNC is not important has no weight here unless you are moving that we disband.
*(23:18) <Sacha>Mildbeard I was saying that attendance is not important
*(23:18) <Sacha>unless you want to change it to active participation
*(23:18) <teamcoltra>Here is the thing people forget: When we have a state as a full member, they count towards quorum
*(23:18) <mildbeard>teamcoltra - you're right that's a critical issue.
*(23:18) <Sacha>\
*(23:19) <Sacha>We should just change the procces entirely imo, I do not think it is reflecting who actively participates in the uspp at large
*(23:19) <QuazarGuy>I think there are extenuating circumstances
*(23:19) <teamcoltra>What if we had two more states go inactive? We couldn't legally have meetings
*(23:19) <Rab>if they miss x meetings, they don't count toward quorum
*(23:19) <Sacha>and if our emphasis is participating in the states
*(23:19) <Sacha>then why have that requriement
*(23:20) <CalebL[laptop]>Does probationary states count towards quorum?
*(23:20) <Rab>another solve: change quorum. I was on a board we went to 40% worked fine that year
*(23:20) <QuazarGuy>the meetings every single week on the same day at the same time are a heavy burden
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*(23:20) <Sacha>Caleb Not my knowledge
*(23:20) <Sacha>What quazarguy said
*(23:20) <teamcoltra>QuazarGuy I know, we discussed that first thing
*(23:20) <QuazarGuy>oh
*(23:20) <Sacha>and they are completely pointless if you do not care about the national level and only want to work on your state
*(23:20) <teamcoltra>we are going to figure out what is best to solve for it and talk about it first thing next week
*(23:20) <Sacha>which is what the PNC has said they are supposed to do
*(23:20) <teamcoltra>to give people some time to mull it over *(even though that was my "homework" at last weeks meeting)
*(23:20) <mildbeard>Quazarguy - http://doodle.com/z2ytq3br86qf5vhx
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*(23:21) <Sacha>Why do we have people primarily intereted in state level for whom these national meetings are merely a distraction being the main voting force
*(23:21) <Sacha>the logic isn't there imo
*(23:21) <CalebL[laptop]>I would believe that a rep should be able to arrange an alternate
*(23:21) <CalebL[laptop]>Sacha, it's common practice over all other political parties
*(23:22) <Sacha>CalebL[laptop] Most other third parties are failing to get elected into office in high enough numbers to matter
*(23:22) <Sacha>Following what they do doesn't really make sense to me, but I am contrary
*(23:22) <teamcoltra>Lets keep it on track
*(23:22) <CalebL[laptop]>Oh, and the bipartisan parties have it working for them, amirite?
*(23:23) <QuazarGuy>what's the doodle for? I thought weekly was discussed a problem
*(23:23) <Sacha>CalebL they are currently running the country so yeah
*(23:23) <Sacha>Quazarguy we are going to discuss bi weekly or monthly meetings in the forums
*(23:23) <mildbeard>QuazarGuy - it's for finding a better time that works for everyone. We've separately discussed making it bi-weekly and using the new PNC forum as a supplement.
*(23:23) <teamcoltra>QuazarGuy even if it was biweekly or whatnot we would still need to know when people are available. We are also talking about asynchronous meetings, but we should discuss that in #uspp or something because we are on a different topic
*(23:24) <CalebL[laptop]>Either way, if states continue to not be present, especially after changing to biweekly meetings in the future, I would encourage moving some states to probationary status
*(23:25) <teamcoltra>I think the topic at hand is what do we do about these parties who are not attending? It's not my desire to kick any party out -- but if a party is hurting our ability to reach quorum then I would like them to stop that somehow.
*(23:25) <QuazarGuy>have we tried assertive letters?
*(23:25) <teamcoltra>California has been busy, but with the number of people they have in their party -- I think they should also be able to find someone to attend a meeting every once in a while
*(23:25) <teamcoltra>QuazarGuy I usually try to call people
*(23:26) <CalebL[laptop]>Partially unrelatedly, isn't it responsibility of QM for checking in on states *(including forming states, I think)?
*(23:26) <teamcoltra>it is now CalebL[laptop]
*(23:26) <Sacha>Not according to the bylaws it isn't
*(23:26) <QuazarGuy>I agree with your assessment of CA
*(23:26) <Sacha>and according to the bylaws the PNC has to vote new duties
*(23:26) <Sacha>not the captain.
*(23:27) <teamcoltra>Oh sorry it's just **They will maintain a database of PNC members.
*(23:27) <teamcoltra>not actually following up with that list
*(23:27) <Sacha>teamcoltra thank you for the correction, the duty is not officially assigned
*(23:28) <teamcoltra>Okay does someone want to make a motion of some kind on this agenda item?
*(23:28) <teamcoltra>if not we need to move on and you guys can discuss it more in the forums
*(23:29) <teamcoltra>Okay we are moving on to amending the bylaws by Sacha
*(23:30) <Rab>what does aob mean?
*(23:30) <CalebL[laptop]>Any Other Business
*(23:30) <Sacha>decision making was left out of the bylaws due to a copying error
*(23:30) <Sacha>we should likely vote it into the bylaws
*(23:30) <Sacha>http://piratepad.net/Tt7DOQkcqJ
*(23:31) <mildbeard>It seems like we already voted on it, no? can't we just rectify it if it's truly a copying error?
*(23:31) <CalebL[laptop]>One thing I slightly worry about is inconsistency; as item 1 is already defined in the Constitution
*(23:31) <teamcoltra>Sacha voting rights does not include at large
*(23:31) <Sacha>mildbeard you told me that I had to vote
*(23:31) <Sacha>I asked you last week.
*(23:32) <Sacha>*eyes of disapproval8
*(23:32) <mildbeard>at large states can vote.
*(23:32) <Sacha>I know
*(23:32) <Sacha>this copying and pasting shit is not working
*(23:33) <teamcoltra>"voting members" could easily be inferred to mean "full members"
*(23:33) <Sacha>why did you say that
*(23:33) <QuazarGuy>how dare thou condemn thine holy ctrl+c, ctrl+v
*(23:33) <Sacha>they are in there as observing members
*(23:33) <mildbeard>except that voting rights are explicitly defined in the constitution?
*(23:33) <teamcoltra>True
*(23:33) <CalebL[laptop]>and "To specify if for example there is one aye vote and 10 abstaining votes the vote will still pass." should be fixed grammatically with commas and removing redundancy
*(23:33) <CalebL[laptop]>such as
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*(23:34) <CalebL[laptop]>"For example, if there is one aye vote and 10 abstaining votes, the vote will still pass."
*(23:34) <Sacha>voting rights in the constitution
*(23:34) <Sacha>say
*(23:34) <Sacha>"Officers and Subcommittee Liaisons shall not participate in PNC votes, unless the Officer or Subcommittee Liaison in question is also acting as a State Representative.
*(23:34) <Sacha>All other PNC participants shall vote according to the Bylaws."
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*(23:34) <Sacha>Caleb, then fix it. My grammar is terrible.
*(23:35) <Sacha>Which is why i was a fan of editing the bylaws before going in
*(23:35) <CalebL[laptop]>just as long as it isn't a seconded motion
*(23:35) <Rab>minor editss and obvious errors need not be voted. substantive changes, yes
*(23:36) <teamcoltra>So do we need this to be passed or was it passed last week?
*(23:36) <mildbeard>I think someone can easily go in and create an amended version of the bylaws containing stylistic and grammatical corrections, and we can just vote it in at the succeeding meeting.
*(23:36) <CalebL[laptop]>But yes, isn't all this text actually already present in the Constitution?
*(23:36) <mildbeard>As far as the current omission, I think we already passed it, and we can just reflect the document to reflect that fact.
*(23:36) <Sacha>Caleb no it isn't
*(23:36) <teamcoltra>Works for me
*(23:36) <CalebL[laptop]>not in this exact form, at least
*(23:37) <teamcoltra>if any *(full member) objects they can do so and we will vote on it
*(23:37) <teamcoltra>until then I consider it passed
*(23:37) <teamcoltra>*(with yesterdays)
*(23:37) <mildbeard>cool
*(23:37) <mildbeard>I have to drop, do we have anything else?
*(23:37) <teamcoltra>there were a few more points
*(23:37) <teamcoltra>we are really close
*(23:37) <CalebL[laptop]>Article III, Section 5 declares voting rights
*(23:38) <teamcoltra>Actually *Status of legal registration of the PNC
*(23:38) <teamcoltra>and washington
*(23:38) <teamcoltra>can be done by email if thats okay?
*(23:38) <mildbeard>k
*(23:38) <Sacha>k
*(23:38) <QuazarGuy>report?
*(23:38) <teamcoltra>Yes
*(23:38) <CalebL[laptop]>Yes, we're just inquiring about the status of incorporating the PNC
*(23:38) <QuazarGuy>I wanted to say something that might help other states
*(23:38) <teamcoltra>Then we just have one last discussion point
*(23:39) <Sacha>why not let them do a quickie?
*(23:39) <teamcoltra>QuazarGuy go ahead
*(23:39) <QuazarGuy>http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/WAPP_State_Organization
*(23:39) <QuazarGuy>I put this together for Washington
*(23:39) <QuazarGuy>it's about organizational structure for a state party
*(23:40) <QuazarGuy>and how to manage information for canvassing
*(23:40) <teamcoltra>Non-profits cant affiliate themselves with you
*(23:40) <QuazarGuy>I'll have to change that then
*(23:41) <CalebL[laptop]>I would encourage an official recommendation for how to form local divisions of a state.
*(23:41) <mildbeard>They are still important and you can still work with them.
*(23:41) <QuazarGuy>but I guess it depends on what affiliation means
*(23:41) <Rab>this looks useful. thx!
*(23:41) <teamcoltra>Really they can't do anything, a relationship would need to only go one way you supporting them.
*(23:41) <QuazarGuy>but I must disclaim that this is how it works in WA
*(23:41) <teamcoltra>It looks great though
*(23:42) <mildbeard>We have a good relationship with some nonprofits
*(23:42) <Sacha>hey mildbeard can I publish your metaconstitution on the wiki?
*(23:42) <QuazarGuy>basically everything works at the precinct level so there are literally thousands of openings for people to work towards spreading the pirate word
*(23:42) <mildbeard>Not to mention several other third parties
*(23:42) <Sacha>sorry mentally related
*(23:42) <mildbeard>sacha yes
*(23:42) <teamcoltra>Okay we had one last topic if QuazarGuy is done and then we can complete the PNC meeting
*(23:42) <mildbeard>Ooh please pirate it!!!
*(23:42) <teamcoltra>without losing quorum and actually adjourning like normal peoples
*(23:42) <QuazarGuy>yeah done
*(23:42) <Sacha>Mildbeard I already have for UC :D
*(23:42) <teamcoltra>*Is the PNC a national brand or is it a resource for the states, I keep seeing it make decisions like it is the first but the membership is of the second.
*(23:42) <Sacha>That was me.
*(23:43) <Sacha>and I would like to expand my question before opening up for debate please
*(23:43) <mildbeard>Why does it have to be either/or?
*(23:43) <teamcoltra>This is rather a discussion topic, so it's also something that can get bumped into email and on the forums... but I thought I would let it be discussed for a few minutes before we actually adjourn
*(23:43) <Sacha>I would like to expand my question before opening up for debate please
*(23:43) <mildbeard>ok ok
*(23:43) <Sacha>sorry lol
*(23:44) <Sacha>So can I go ahead and no interruptions please?
*(23:44) <QuazarGuy>please go
*(23:44) <Sacha>Okay are we a national brand or are we a resource for the states
*(23:45) <Sacha>making decisions about the website
*(23:45) <Sacha>making decisions about committees
*(23:45) <Sacha>making decisions that affect the states and peope unrelated to states equallly
*(23:45) <Sacha>equally*
*(23:45) <Sacha>such a pnc member requirements
*(23:45) <Sacha>speaks of a national brand
*(23:45) <Sacha>that we are operating beyond the states
*(23:45) <Sacha>if we are only a resource for the states
*(23:45) <Sacha>for establishing communication
*(23:45) <Sacha>then we should not be involved in any of those things
*(23:46) <Sacha>If we are a national brand
*(23:46) <Sacha>and that is our goal and that is how we are helping the states
*(23:46) <Sacha>then allowing state representatives rights over individuals is fucked up
*(23:46) <Sacha>we are all affected by the national image
*(23:46) <Sacha>there are some people that are not interested in creating states
*(23:46) <Sacha>there are people passionately involved in this party
*(23:47) <Sacha>i.e caleb, me, itspara, efk
*(23:47) <Sacha>that are not allowed equal status, powers or rights
*(23:47) <Sacha>because of the emphasis on states
*(23:47) <Sacha>if we are for the states, composed of states
*(23:47) <Sacha>and keep this membership system, then we need to step away from anything that is not helping communication between states
*(23:48) <Sacha>or providing resources, not requirements
*(23:48) <Sacha>or we need to change what it means to be a full member of the PNC
*(23:48) <Sacha>that is all sorry for the rant
*(23:48) <mildbeard>I think we are both a national brand and a resource for the states. We should denounce anyone who says they're a "Pirate Party" but they are pro DRM. And we should avoid imposing anything on the states that is unrelated to this brand. And we should be the best possible resource for the states rather than an obstacle to them.
*(23:49) <mildbeard>we should have members at a national level from states where there is no organized pirate party. And people from member states who also want to participate at a national level.
*(23:49) <teamcoltra>I see us as both. Individuals have no place in the the PNC, the PNC is here for the purpose of promoting the state parties and to create a national brand which people can identify with which then encourages more people to join and become members of their state parties. mildbeard's opinion at the beginning that we are both was spot on. I have encouraged Michigan to reapply for full membership for the past month or so now, so it's not
*(23:49) <teamcoltra> as though you don't have an opportunity to be a full member.
*(23:49) <mildbeard>I don't see these things as being mutually exclusive.
*(23:49) <CalebL[laptop]>Sorry that I disagree with you on a point, despite the complement. I'm adamantly involved, but I believe I should have full voting privileges, as I'm not an official representative of Minnesota.
*(23:49) <passstab>but what about a pirate party that is anti-gay?
*(23:49) <Sacha>Teamcoltra My only opportunity is to waste my time on something i do not want to do
*(23:50) <passstab>i think we need a platform
*(23:50) <teamcoltra>then don't bitch because you can't
*(23:50) <CalebL[laptop]>If the MNPP was formed and an interim staff elected, and the state party was growing, and I had been elected chair, THEN I should have privileges.
*(23:50) <Sacha>I desperately want to be involved at the national level, it is all I want to do
*(23:50) <Sacha>I am fucking bitching
*(23:50) <mildbeard>passstab I agree. Other Pirate Parties are extending their platforms in this way.
*(23:50) <mildbeard>sweden
*(23:50) <mildbeard>Germany
*(23:50) <itspara>[23:50] <passstab> i think we need a platform
*(23:50) <mildbeard>England
*(23:50) <itspara>^THIS^
*(23:50) <Sacha>because you are representing eople
*(23:50) <teamcoltra>there is no national level... there are state levels which create a national body
*(23:50) <mildbeard>there is a national level
*(23:50) <CalebL[laptop]>If I'm a random guy off the street, I shouldn't represent a whole state by being self-appointed
*(23:50) <teamcoltra>I also think we need a comprehensive platform
*(23:50) <Sacha>Then we cannot do anything at the national level
*(23:51) <Sacha>calebL but in here you can
*(23:51) <Sacha>but if you are not attached to a state and work your ass off as the head of IT
*(23:51) <Sacha>you have to hook up with a state to even have a goddamn voice without permission
*(23:51) <itspara>The "national" does exist. its made up of states. A national platform would be a general representation of all the states beliefs
*(23:51) <mildbeard>This all-or-nothing thinking helps nobody. we are an international movement.
*(23:52) <Sacha>Teamcoltra if you do that you are representing people who are not given access to being a full member unless they devote their precious time and energy to something they do not want to do
*(23:52) <Sacha>I agree mildbeard, which is why I think that the focus should be on states and helping states
*(23:52) <QuazarGuy>due to this argument being about semantics I motion to move the discussion to the mailing list and adjourn
*(23:52) <Sacha>but not in the membership
*(23:52) <teamcoltra>anyone want to second QuazarGuy ?
*(23:52) <teamcoltra>Please do
*(23:52) <Sacha>Quazarguy I would rather forums but would agree
*(23:52) <QuazarGuy>forums, w/e
*(23:53) <mildbeard>I second - I agree with a lot of what Sacha is saying and don't think it should be controversial.
*(23:53) <teamcoltra>Second from a member?
*(23:53) <teamcoltra>Good.. all in favour?
*(23:53) <QuazarGuy>aye
*(23:53) <CalebL[laptop]>aye
*(23:53) <MrSquared>aye
*(23:53) <mildbeard>aye
*(23:54) - mildbeard quit *(Quit: Leaving)
*(23:54) <CalebL[laptop]>I don't think OrionSteele has been present for over an hour, so we realistically don't have quorum *(despite the numbers)
*(23:54) <CalebL[laptop]>xP
*(23:54) <teamcoltra>regardless we are set
*(23:54) <teamcoltra>good night guys
*(23:54) <Sacha>lol we are set
*(23:54) - MrSquared quit *(Quit: Web client closed)
*(23:54) <Sacha>I am making a forums post though about it
*(23:54) <Sacha>BE BOLD BE BOLD BE BOLD BE BOLD
*(23:54) <CalebL[laptop]>Anyway, if we're to provide resources, then people should start rounding up together and doing that
*(23:54) <Sacha>CalebL working on it with the wiki committee
*(23:54) <passstab>what exactly did we just approve?
*(23:55) <Sacha>lol that is the main goal
*(23:55) <teamcoltra>going to sleep
*(23:55) <teamcoltra>not a statement, thats my answer to passstab
*(23:55) <CalebL[laptop]>Tabling an agenda item to the next meeting and adjourn
*(23:55) <passstab>lol thanks
*(23:55) <CalebL[laptop]>Even though I don't think you can have the two as a single motion. xP
*(23:56) - passstab quit *(Remote host closed the connection)
*(23:56) <CalebL[laptop]>But I could be wrong
*(23:56) <Sacha>also please do comment in the forums
*(23:57) <Sacha>also CalebL[laptop] for the sake of transparency and being honest, I think you are a bit judgmental and kinda a dick
*(23:57) <Sacha>but I really respect you
*(23:57) <Sacha>and appreciate how you throw out your opinions
*(23:57) <Sacha>JSYK
*(23:58) - VLD joined
*(23:59) <QuazarGuy>CalabL you can't, but I didn't think anyone would care
*(00:00) <QuazarGuy>Sacha is there a wiki discussion going?
*(00:01) <Sacha>QuazarGuy not right now, I am going to move it over to the forums
*(00:01) <Sacha>i also want to work on content for the website but I am shying away from that now, so i'll just work on wiki stuff
*(00:03) - VLD quit *(Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
*(00:05) <QuazarGuy>we wiki people have the main page discussion tab
*(00:06) <Sacha>yeah, that is true
*(00:06) <Sacha>since they are doing something different with content we should use the discussion tab for wiki stuff
*(00:07) <QuazarGuy>sure
*(00:09) - itspara quit *(Quit: Web client closed)
*(00:12) - itspara joined
*(00:39) - Rab left
*(00:49) - Brady quit *(Quit: Leaving)

User:Kusanagi

2012-10-13T02:13:08Z

Kusanagi:

contact:
8187347662

kusanagi.chroma@ gmail

*New York Pirate Party Administrative Officer
*USPP PNC First Officer

PNC 10/17/12

2012-10-13T02:11:41Z

Kusanagi: original agenda -- please replace w/finished agenda/mins/logs

=:'''Agenda PNC MEETING'''
::'''--- 10/17/2012 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Channel: #pnc
::Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_10/17/12

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*Attending

*Excused

*Unexcused

*Probation

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
Meeting closed at: 9:XX pm EDT by
*Meeting chaired by
*Acting Secretary for this meeting is
*Quorum is established: X Members out of 8 present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_10/10/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===
====4.1 - Short report of the board members ====

=====Massachusetts=====

=====Washington=====

=====Oregon=====

=====Georgia====

=====Florida=====

=====New York=====

=====California=====

=====Wisconsin=====

==== 4.2 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====

=====Bylaws Committee=====

=====Convention Committee=====

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===

Creation of a Content Committee

Amending the Constitution for IT Standards

=== - AOB - ===

*Next meeting: TBA at 9PM EDT
*Meeting closed:

=== - Logs of the Meeting - ===

PNC 10/10/12

2012-10-13T01:57:53Z

Kusanagi: Edited minutes to remove acting QM's personal commentary and completed the record-taking for the meeting.

=:'''Agenda PNC MEETING'''
::'''--- 10/10/2012 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_10/10/12

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*Attending
Jarod Smith, GA
Erik Zoltan, MA
Francis Klein, WI
Zachary Adam Green, NY
Eric Fromm, OR

*Excused
Florida

*Unexcused
*WA
*CA

*Probation

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====
Caleb Laneslag, MN

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====
Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, First Mate
Travis McCrea, NY, Captain

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
Meeting opened at: 9:01 pm EDT by Travis McCrea
Meeting closed at: 10:56 pm EDT by Travis McCrea {due to lack of quorum)
*Meeting chaired by Travis McCrea
*Acting Secretary for this meeting is Amanda Johnson
*Quorum is established: 5 Members out of 8 present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_9/26/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===
====4.1 - Short report of the board members ====

=====Massachusetts=====
*Dinner and drinks with some German Pirates
* Recent Talk by Gregory Engels of PPDE / PPI co-chair.
*Opening liquid feedback for use in determining positions on 2012 ballot questions.
*Crypto party coming up

=====Washington=====

=====Oregon=====
*Organizing a voice chat for the Oregon party

=====Georgia====
*No news

=====Florida=====
*Haven't been able to make progress on NSH 2
*In about the same state as last week's meeting

=====New York=====
*New York controls the PNC as Travis moved there
*A great new snazzy website at nypirateparty.org
*Talked to people about running as pirates in 2013
*Snazzy site includes real pictures of real people in the real NYPP

=====California=====

=====Wisconsin=====
*Nothing to report

==== 4.2 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====
*4.5 hour long IT meeting last night
*decided to restructure the forum with phpBB3, and have it integrate with the mailing lists, so that we can centralized communication, while giving people what format they want to communicate in
*sticking with mediawiki
*new website shall be wordpress
*discussed prospective projects such as providing hosting for State Pirate Parties in the early stages of forming
*decided to go without CloudFlare for now, until we have the financing to support $20/month for having CloudFlare with SSL
*In the meantime, we'll just have direct connectivity, and soon have HTTPS and IPv6 live.
*Possible IT standards were discussed
*The idea of a website content committee was discussed and then moved to AOB by the captain

*Motion to appoint Caleb Laneslag head of the IT committee
*Motions passes, 4 for

=====Bylaws Committee=====
*Motion to vote on bylaws
*Motion passes 3 for, 1 against, at large against
*Motion to accept Sacha's bylaws proposal seen at https://pnc.piratenpad.de/amendedbylawsoutline
*Motion passes, 4 for, at large against

*Motion to adjourn due to lack of quorum

=====Convention Committee=====

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===

Meeting Times - MA

Creation of a Content Committee

Amending the Constituion for IT Standards

=== - AOB - ===
Meeting Times - MA

*Next meeting: October 17th, 2012 at 9PM EDT
*Meeting closed:

=== - Logs of the Meeting - ===
*[21:00] <@TeamColtra> Hey everyone
*[21:00] <Sacha> Hell
*[21:00] <Sacha> Hello*
*[21:00] <Mozart> Hi
*[21:01] <@kusanagi> yo
*[21:01] <@TeamColtra> Let's call this meeting to order and do roll call
*[21:01] <HariSeldon> hi
*[21:01] <Zacqary> Hay
*[21:01] <mildbeard> Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts
*[21:01] <jarod_> *waves*
*[21:01] <jarod_> jarod smith ga
*[21:01] <@kusanagi> Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, FM
*[21:01] <HariSeldon> Francis Klein, WI
*[21:01] <CalebL*[laptop]> Caleb Langeslag, MN
*[21:01] <Zacqary> Zacqary Adam Green, NY
*[21:02] <Fromm> Eric Fromm, OR
*[21:02] <HariSeldon> I might have to leave early - Hopefully the Bosun will be here before I do.
*[21:02] == jarod *[~yaaic@49-65-937-966.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #pnc
*[21:02] <Sacha> Amanda Johnson, Michgan
*[21:03] <Sacha> Also could you give all full members the '+' it makes voting a lot easier for me
*[21:04] == mode/#pnc *[+v Fromm] by TeamColtra
*[21:04] == mode/#pnc *[+v Zacqary] by TeamColtra
*[21:04] == mode/#pnc *[+v HariSeldon] by TeamColtra
*[21:04] <@TeamColtra> voice jarod_
*[21:04] == mode/#pnc *[+v jarod_] by TeamColtra
*[21:04] == mode/#pnc *[+v mildbeard] by TeamColtra
*[21:04] <Sacha> Hariseldon, what is your name and state please
*[21:04] <+HariSeldon> Francis Klein, WI
*[21:04] <@TeamColtra> *[21:01:40] <HariSeldon> Francis Klein, WI
*[21:05] <Sacha> Oh jk you did, so sorry <3
*[21:06] <itspara> Nick Desalvo, MD
*[21:07] <@TeamColtra> Okay well let's do the review of last meetings minutes
*[21:07] <@TeamColtra> I believe that was the 19th meeting correct?
*[21:07] <@TeamColtra> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_9/19/12
*[21:07] <@kusanagi> no
*[21:07] <@kusanagi> 26th
*[21:07] <@kusanagi> you zac and i did the meeting from my house, remember?
*[21:08] <@TeamColtra> Oh
*[21:08] <@TeamColtra> indeed
*[21:08] <@TeamColtra> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_9/26/12
*[21:08] <@kusanagi> how could you forget
*[21:09] <CalebL*[laptop]> Abuse! Abuse! He's blocking out memories due to abuse!
*[21:09] <CalebL*[laptop]> :P
*[21:09] <@TeamColtra> My brain is struggling to function on the East Coast.
*[21:09] <@TeamColtra> and there might have been abuse
*[21:10] <@kusanagi> you lie!\
*[21:10] <@TeamColtra> that I am blacking out
*[21:10] <@TeamColtra> Okay let's go to state reports
*[21:10] <@TeamColtra> Let's start with mildbeard
*[21:10] <+mildbeard> Since the last meeting we had an impromptu gathering over dinner and drinks, together with some German Pirates who happened to be in town.
*[21:11] <+mildbeard> Last Friday we had a public talk by Gregory Engels of the German Pirate Party, co-chair of Pirate Parties International.
*[21:11] <+mildbeard> We are opening up our Liquid Feedback site to help get input from our supporters about upcoming ballot questions.
*[21:11] <+mildbeard> And we have a crypto party coming up, which has multiple workshops/talks about how to protect your privacy online.
*[21:12] <+mildbeard> That's it for now, I think.
*[21:12] <@TeamColtra> Washington didn't check in, so let's go to Oregon Fromm
*[21:12] <@TeamColtra> (thanks mildbeard )
*[21:12] <+Fromm> ok
*[21:13] <+Fromm> We are trying to organize a voice chat meeting for the Oregon party. Other than that nothing is new
*[21:13] <@TeamColtra> Well still exciting!
*[21:13] <@TeamColtra> Thanks Fromm
*[21:13] <@TeamColtra> Georgia / jarod_
*[21:13] <@TeamColtra> (and or jarod )
*[21:14] <@TeamColtra> oay
*[21:15] <@TeamColtra> New York / Zacqary
*[21:16] <+Zacqary> Well, first of all, Travis McCrea is now one of us. We control the whole PNC now. Muahahahahaha.
*[21:16] <+Zacqary> Two weeks ago he helped us set up a new snazzy website, and do some flyering and canvassing in New York City.
*[21:17] <@kusanagi> nypirateparty.org
*[21:17] <+Zacqary> We also talked to two people interested in running as Pirates in 2013.
*[21:17] <+Zacqary> A mayorial candidate for NYC, and a candidate for Town Councilman in Brookhaven.
*[21:18] <+Zacqary> Not finalized yet, but we're hoping everything goes smoothly and that we can announce Jason Sullivan for Town Council right after Election Day. (His idea for the timing)
*[21:18] <@TeamColtra> http://nypirateparty.org/engagement/ <= Not just stock images on the site, you can even see Zac talking to real people
*[21:18] <+mildbeard> awesome
*[21:18] <+Zacqary> And I think that sums it up.
*[21:18] <@kusanagi> REAL people
*[21:20] <@TeamColtra> Wisconsin and HariSeldon
*[21:20] <+HariSeldon> nothing to report
*[21:20] <@TeamColtra> Okay then let's go onto committees
*[21:21] <@TeamColtra> first up we have the IT Committee sporting an energetic young lad, and a hat which really brings it all together
*[21:22] <+jarod_> GA - no news btw
*[21:22] <CalebL*[laptop]> Thank you for the generous introduction;
*[21:22] <CalebL*[laptop]> We had an extensive IT committee last night, and got plenty of topics covered, the meeting was over 4.5 hours in duration
*[21:24] <CalebL*[laptop]> We've decided to restructure the forum with phpBB3, and have it integrate with the mailing lists, so that we can centralized communication, while giving people what format they want to communicate in
*[21:24] <CalebL*[laptop]> Decided to continue with MediaWiki, as usual
*[21:24] <CalebL*[laptop]> And intend to restructure the website with WordPress
*[21:25] <CalebL*[laptop]> As well as some potential projects, such as providing hosting for State Pirate Parties in the early stages of forming
*[21:26] <CalebL*[laptop]> We've decided to go without CloudFlare for now, until we have the financing to support $20/month for having CloudFlare with SSL
*[21:26] <CalebL*[laptop]> In the meantime, we'll just have direct connectivity, and soon have HTTPS and IPv6 live.
*[21:27] <CalebL*[laptop]> Lastly, I bring up a few prompts relevant to the PNC, as it was discussed that content is the responsibility of the PNC
*[21:28] <CalebL*[laptop]> Therefore I ask if you have a specific person decided yet, or do you have any gameplan on doing so?
*[21:29] <Sacha> May I offer a suggestion, or must I ask permission to speak before offering a suggestion?
*[21:29] <+mildbeard> move that sacha be given a voice
*[21:30] <@TeamColtra> I think we can do that
*[21:30] <@TeamColtra> if anyone objects jsut say something
*[21:31] <Sacha> So should I go now... or...
*[21:32] <@TeamColtra> ... yes
*[21:33] <Sacha> Okay, so our new mantra is 'be bold'
*[21:33] <Sacha> So making some one in charge of it wouldn't make too much sense with that
*[21:33] <itspara> BE BOLD
*[21:33] <Sacha> My suggestion is to send out emails or alert people and whoever wants to step up as the head can
*[21:33] * Zacqary presses Control-B
*[21:33] <@kusanagi> what do you mean exactly?
*[21:33] <itspara> Well, It would make sense to put someone in charge, because then the bold people would see who they need to work with
*[21:34] <+mildbeard> Are we talking about the PNC supplying info on the site?
*[21:34] <Sacha> True, but who would we put in charge and how do we decide that they have the qualifications?
*[21:34] <Sacha> Let's be honest, at least three people have been actively discussing content
*[21:34] <+HariSeldon> so you are saying we ask for volunteers instead of finding someone.
*[21:34] <Sacha> Yes exactly
*[21:35] <+mildbeard> Sometimes it is better to ask forgiveness than permission.
*[21:35] <@TeamColtra> Sacha I want people to be bold in submitting things and feeling empowered to act. I don't know if I want to just give everyone the keys to every public part of our website
*[21:35] <Sacha> just say that we need it and then go for it
*[21:35] <CalebL*[laptop]> If you assign a person, they have responsibility. If people passively volunteer, they can disappear and just shrug it off, as they usually assume the others would have gotten to it
*[21:35] <Sacha> It is simply content, they would still need to work with IT to see it done
*[21:35] <Sacha> they just ahve the ideas
*[21:35] <@TeamColtra> We were talking about press releases and news items, and how we should just let anyone submit content, and then have a trusted group of people who can approve them
*[21:35] <Sacha> Caleb I point at the Bylaws committee, assigning means nothing
*[21:35] <CalebL*[laptop]> And yes, there is the increased risk
*[21:36] <+mildbeard> The bigger risk is to have a website with no content.
*[21:36] <Sacha> Teamcoltra this is simply content, it would be a committee so if you are concerned you can join and discuss it with other concerned people and come to an agreement
*[21:36] <Sacha> We could all join it, if it concerns you then pop in and say your piece
*[21:37] <CalebL*[laptop]> There should be a contact in which people can coordinate with
*[21:37] <Sacha> I think that assigning someone causes two possible problems 1. The assigned person may drop out anyway and then there is no benefit, they did not join due to passion they were simply assigned 2. The other people may not like them and it may cause strife by already having a hierarchy
*[21:37] <CalebL*[laptop]> Because a lot of the time, there may end up being conflicting efforts
*[21:37] <Sacha> Yes, but let the contact come forward, instead of assigning one
*[21:37] <@TeamColtra> I hate creating committees and saying "this is what it will do" if you want to have a committee, then do the work of a committee first...
*[21:38] <@TeamColtra> and then you will be given more an more access as your committee matures
*[21:38] <CalebL*[laptop]> If the assigned person drops out, they give up their status
*[21:38] <CalebL*[laptop]> And if there's an assigned person, then there's someone to check up on, to see if they're fulfilling their role
*[21:38] <Sacha> Caleb What if they simply stop showing up? What is an acceptable amount of neglect before they are replaced?
*[21:39] <CalebL*[laptop]> When they aren't obviously doing their role?
*[21:39] <CalebL*[laptop]> and when the PNC can strip them of that role, by vote
*[21:40] <Sacha> Isn't that a lot of trouble when you can simply send out a call to interested people
*[21:40] <Sacha> and then pick one that seems the most trustworthy
*[21:40] <Sacha> and then you know that they are passionate as they nominated themselves
*[21:40] <+HariSeldon> Content is necessary, though. Sacha's impatience with the hierarchy method is well placed, I'm just not sure what we can do for a solution.
*[21:40] <Sacha> passionate and interested and have the time
*[21:40] <+mildbeard> I have a specific proposal.
*[21:41] <@TeamColtra> before we go too deep into this... outside of content was there anything directly IT related that needed to be further discussed?
*[21:41] <@TeamColtra> Because I would love to have this content committee / request / idea be discussed on it's own merits after all the committees have given their updates
*[21:41] <CalebL*[laptop]> IT standards; of how the PNC wants to enforce such, if at all
*[21:42] <@TeamColtra> mildbeard sorry for cutting you off.
*[21:42] <@TeamColtra> CalebL*[laptop] do you have any suggestions there?
*[21:42] <+mildbeard> np
*[21:42] <CalebL*[laptop]> I'm just curious if the PNC belives we should take them as standards that need to be met, or recommendations.
*[21:43] <@TeamColtra> Could you give the PNC an example?
*[21:43] <CalebL*[laptop]> Or if we should only have strong standard enforcement solely for standards that are in regards of handling and storing private information
*[21:43] <+mildbeard> Anything that doesn't contradict the core values in the constitution is probably OK with us.
*[21:43] <CalebL*[laptop]> Well, like a quality standard, saying that States must have IPv6 connectivity implemented by x date, or x month after party formation, etc
*[21:44] <+mildbeard> We shouldn't dictate too much to the individual states. We only exist at the pleasure of the States.
*[21:45] <CalebL*[laptop]> and thus I was saying that enforcement should only be reserved for when it's a case of private information.
*[21:46] <CalebL*[laptop]> Such as password hashing (which is dead simple to meet; given the accepted algorithms) or personal information of donators (for campaign finance, etc)
*[21:48] <@TeamColtra> This would require a constitutional amendment, so I think that we can also make this an agenda item for tonight if you would like but lets make sure everything gets said first
*[21:48] <@TeamColtra> CalebL*[laptop] was there anything else that the itspara committee wanted to cover
*[21:48] <@TeamColtra> ...err the IT committee :\
*[21:49] <CalebL*[laptop]> Not that I can think of
*[21:49] * TeamColtra coughs
*[21:49] <CalebL*[laptop]> or actually, one second
*[21:50] == MrSquared *[webchat@65.182.wky.sjn] has joined #pnc
*[21:50] <itspara> apparently I am a committee
*[21:50] <CalebL*[laptop]> I have something, I just have to get off the phone quick
*[21:52] <Sacha> umm brb, please do not end the bylaws committee discussion without me
*[21:52] == Brady *[~Grizzly@PirateParty/US/Member] has joined #pnc
*[21:54] <CalebL*[laptop]> Sorry, always freaking on call
*[21:55] <Sacha> K back
*[21:56] <CalebL*[laptop]> One thing I'd like to see is some official status with the PNC, such as having an elected leader for the IT committee, whereas of course I'm right now just doing it under a basis of being the self-proclaimed interim leader
*[21:56] <CalebL*[laptop]> just to make sure everything is fair and kosher
*[21:58] == jarod_ *[webchat@68.66.mh.twl] has quit *[Quit: Web client closed]
*[21:58] <@TeamColtra> lol it seems like our break has sent a few people looking the other direction
*[21:58] <@TeamColtra> let's give everyone a second to return and participate
*[21:59] <@TeamColtra> (ping Fromm HariSeldon mildbeard Zacqary )
*[21:59] <+Fromm> I'm here
*[21:59] <+HariSeldon> hi
*[21:59] <CalebL*[laptop]> There's a client that calls me almost everyday in regards of their website; so sorry for the lag. xP
*[21:59] <+mildbeard> When the IT committee was formed, we appointed matuck the head. Can we just appoint CalebL*[laptop] as head instead?
*[22:00] <@TeamColtra> I think we can, we just need to hold that vote. Do we want to open the floor for other people and allow other people to submit their application?
*[22:00] <@TeamColtra> or do we just want to say "hear ye hear ye we proclaim CalebL*[laptop] leader of the land of IT"
*[22:00] <CalebL*[laptop]> By all means, give a couple minutes for nominations
*[22:00] <Sacha> If Caleb is the only nom do we need to vote? >.>
*[22:01] <@TeamColtra> Well I was thinking until next meeting for people to throw their name in the hats, otherwise we just officially appoint CalebL*[laptop]
*[22:01] <@TeamColtra> I am honestly happy with CalebL*[laptop] and would encourage an appointment and if others feel they can do it, they can petition the PNC and we can hold a vote
*[22:01] <CalebL*[laptop]> Shoot, I forgot there was thing I was going to add earlier in terms of standards
*[22:03] <+mildbeard> Uh .... should we have a motion to nominate him, or a motion to place this on the agenda for next time.
*[22:03] <CalebL*[laptop]> as of the standards, it wouldn't be voted into effect by the IT committee of course; instead, they would be put in effect by PNC vote. So if people feel the standard is too restrictive or anything, they could just vote against
*[22:04] <CalebL*[laptop]> and considering that PNC members represent their state, well, that would be fairly logical.
*[22:04] <@TeamColtra> mildbeard that's what I am asking you guys
*[22:04] <@TeamColtra> since I can't make motions
*[22:05] <+mildbeard> I move that we appoint CalebL*[laptop] as the chair of the IT committee, with responsibility to report to the PNC on a weekly basis.
*[22:05] <+HariSeldon> second
*[22:06] <@TeamColtra> Do we want to debate on it?
*[22:06] <+Zacqary> Sounds like a good idea to me.
*[22:06] <+Zacqary> That's the extent of my debate.
*[22:06] <@TeamColtra> Well then if there are no objections let's vote... all in favour that we appoint CalebL*[laptop] as the chair of the IT committee, with responsibility to report to the PNC on a weekly basis. say aye, against say nay
*[22:07] <+Fromm> aye
*[22:07] <+Zacqary> Aye\
*[22:07] <+HariSeldon> aye
*[22:08] <@TeamColtra> mildbeard :)
*[22:08] <+mildbeard> aye
*[22:08] <@TeamColtra> Vote called
*[22:08] <@TeamColtra> Sacha vote total?
*[22:08] <Sacha> 4 for
*[22:10] <@TeamColtra> Okay as for the other thing CalebL*[laptop], we will discuss adding standards as an official part of the constituion (where it would belong) later in the meeting
*[22:10] <CalebL*[laptop]> by all means
*[22:10] <@TeamColtra> Was that it? :)
*[22:10] <CalebL*[laptop]> Yus
*[22:11] <CalebL*[laptop]> That concludes the ~20 minutes IT committee report. :P
*[22:11] <@TeamColtra> Bylaws Committee
*[22:11] <@TeamColtra> Zacqary
*[22:11] <@TeamColtra> and Sacha will be allowed to speak as well
*[22:12] <+Zacqary> I'm gonna let Sacha take the lead here because she's been the most productive lately.
*[22:12] <Sacha> Yay, thank you Zac
*[22:12] <Sacha> What has happened lately, I made changes to the officer and committees part of the bylaws
*[22:13] <Sacha> and sent that out a few weeks ago
*[22:13] <Sacha> Nothing else has happened until today when I changed the formatting to match up with wiki and moved it to this pad: http://piratepad.net/pm9vRozBji
*[22:13] <Sacha> I would like to suggest that a state motions that we simply vote and debate on the bylaws in here
*[22:14] <Sacha> instead of hoping that the committee is more active than it has been in the past weeks which is extremely little
*[22:14] <Sacha> That's all i've got
*[22:14] <@kusanagi> there were also a lot going on for both zac and myself
*[22:14] <@kusanagi> this past week i've been drugged to god knows what
*[22:15] <Sacha> Yes, I understand that which is why I think it is best to simply move discussion about it to everyone.
*[22:15] <Sacha> I am an impatient person so if patience is needed please tell me
*[22:15] <+mildbeard> I am looking at the bylaws, and I am not seeing anything that would prevent us from adopting them now and just adding more in the future.
*[22:16] <+mildbeard> Does anyone else see anything so controversial that it would be an obstacle to ratification?
*[22:16] <CalebL*[laptop]> So we won't have a secretary at all?
*[22:16] <@kusanagi> i still have an issue with the officer positions
*[22:16] <CalebL*[laptop]> and just offload it to the captain?
*[22:17] <Sacha> What? Quarter Master is there? :/
*[22:17] <CalebL*[laptop]> Sorry, misread
*[22:17] <Sacha> Kusanagi I changed them so that they were in line with the constitution more so I am confused
*[22:17] <CalebL*[laptop]> But still seems odd that the captain is accountable for income
*[22:18] <Sacha> Yeah, I thought about putting that under QM but as he is the face of the pirate it makes sense that he accepts legal accountability for the party
*[22:18] <@TeamColtra> Well since the QM is the treasurer
*[22:18] <+mildbeard> We don't have an official treasurer in the Constitution - we probably need one.
*[22:18] <@TeamColtra> they should manage income
*[22:18] <Sacha> Are they the treasurer? In this version they are basically the secretary
*[22:18] <@kusanagi> mildbeard, that was a suggestion i made
*[22:18] <@TeamColtra> Your words Sacha:
*[22:18] <@TeamColtra> *Quartermaster : As the treasurer this position will primarily focus on money and legal issues.
*[22:18] <@kusanagi> or a financial committee
*[22:19] <@TeamColtra> it's the first line of the description
*[22:19] <Sacha> Crap, sorry
*[22:19] <@TeamColtra> line 53
*[22:19] <Sacha> I didn't edit that properly, I changed it to be more in line with the constitution
*[22:19] <+mildbeard> I think we should have treasurer in the constitution to ensure compliance with FEC requirements. Then we can amend the bylaws to fall into line.
*[22:19] <Sacha> so that is simply a left over from my first officer description, please ignore it
*[22:19] <CalebL*[laptop]> Perhaps we shouldn't rush into having voting over the bylaws within this meeting?
*[22:19] <@TeamColtra> AAre you sure, because 54 reaffirms that
*[22:19] <Sacha> I agree with mildbeard there
*[22:20] <@TeamColtra> Yes, I would like to have a dedicated treasurer as well
*[22:20] <Sacha> caleb I would be in favor of discussing them throughly here and voting next week
*[22:20] <Sacha> I think discussing them outside the PNC has not been useful
*[22:20] <+mildbeard> I would propose that we can ratify the bylaws, although imperfect, and simply amend them in the future.
*[22:20] <@TeamColtra> but I think having QM be the treasurer until we can create the position wont hurt, since we are at least a couple months away from having money anyway
*[22:20] <@TeamColtra> Especially since bylaws only require simple majority votes
*[22:20] <@kusanagi> there was a second proposal for officers
*[22:21] <Sacha> Then link them kusi
*[22:21] <+mildbeard> "Perfect is the enemy of good enough." If we try to solve every problem in advance, we'll never be able to move forward.
*[22:21] <Sacha> Or actually nevermind
*[22:21] <@kusanagi> it's more in depth than Sacha's currently are, http://piratepad.net/zn7hKEJPrm
*[22:21] <Sacha> Should we consider the alternative proposal?
*[22:21] <Sacha> Or should we simply work off the one that is presented and adjust it?
*[22:21] <Sacha> As it was the first proposal presented?
*[22:21] <@TeamColtra> I like Sacha's proposal more
*[22:22] <Sacha> The big thing that I like about my proposal is that it holds the PNC very accountable
*[22:22] <Sacha> and limits their powers
*[22:22] <Sacha> See
*[22:22] <@kusanagi> as does mine
*[22:22] <Sacha> Omfg stupid pad, it isn't included
*[22:22] <@kusanagi> it's ust verbosej
*[22:22] <CalebL*[laptop]> No need for the 'expiration' section; but there should be something in the bylaws that the bylaws do sunset after a year
*[22:23] <@kusanagi> and outlines a lot of specifics
*[22:23] <+mildbeard> I don't really have a problem with the other version either.
*[22:23] <@TeamColtra> kusanagi your version is not just a verbose version of hers. It is a major shift in roles and responsibilities
*[22:23] <Sacha> please see the general provisions
*[22:23] <@kusanagi> TeamColtra, i understand that
*[22:23] <Sacha> that were not there due to copying errors
*[22:23] <+mildbeard> I do have a problem with endless debate and never actually doing anything however.
*[22:23] <@TeamColtra> My vision for Captain is a CEO role and FO as a COO role
*[22:24] <Sacha> Mildbeard I agree with that
*[22:24] <Sacha> The major thing that I will not shift on is that the captain explicitly
*[22:24] <@TeamColtra> I think Sacha's proposal achieves that better
*[22:24] <Sacha> needs to be in charge of dealing with conflicts and being the spokesperson
*[22:24] <@kusanagi> well, don't take offence, TeamColtra but you weren't on the bylaws committee.
*[22:24] <@TeamColtra> kusanagi but I watched the pads and the conversations
*[22:24] <Sacha> No offense Kusanagi but that doesn't matter, we are in the PNC now and everyone is entitled to their opinion
*[22:24] <@kusanagi> if that was your vision, you should have worked with us
*[22:25] <@TeamColtra> kusanagi I did
*[22:25] <@kusanagi> how?
*[22:25] <Sacha> Can we not discuss this
*[22:25] <Sacha> please take it to PM
*[22:25] <@TeamColtra> by telling this very idea to the people involved
*[22:25] <@kusanagi> i didn't see your involvement
*[22:25] <Sacha> it is not relevant
*[22:25] <@TeamColtra> I gave a vision, and let you guys do what you want with it
*[22:25] <Sacha> Okay so
*[22:25] <Sacha> the bylaws
*[22:25] <Sacha> Would a state like to make a motion
*[22:25] <Sacha> about if we discuss the bylaws this week
*[22:25] <Sacha> and then vote on them next week?
*[22:26] <Sacha> I think that discussing them outside the PNC has been futile, if a state would like to motion that we table it
*[22:26] <Sacha> I would be amendable to that as well
*[22:26] <@TeamColtra> Sacha :P give them some time to reply to one of your statements
*[22:27] <Sacha> TeamColtra Yes sir c:
*[22:27] <+HariSeldon> move to discuss bylaws this week and vote on them next week
*[22:27] <CalebL*[laptop]> Well, we have two proposals, and we can try discussing it all within the meeting, but I'm not sure if the PNC meeting will end up being as long as the last IT committee meeting. xP
*[22:27] <CalebL*[laptop]> So I'm not sure if we'll have everything kosher by next week
*[22:28] <@TeamColtra> Is there a second for HariSeldon's motion?
*[22:28] <+HariSeldon> caleb what do you suggest then
*[22:28] <+mildbeard> I move that we approve the following version of the bylaws:http://piratepad.net/pm9vRozBji
*[22:29] <CalebL*[laptop]> That we can discuss it further
*[22:29] <@TeamColtra> mildbeard you actually can't unless HariSeldon would like to revoke their motion
*[22:29] <+HariSeldon> i revoke my motion
*[22:29] <Sacha> Should we decide first if kusanagi's counter proposal be considered?
*[22:29] <CalebL*[laptop]> rather than jump to enforcing a vote for the next week
*[22:29] <@TeamColtra> okay any seconds for mildbeard's ?
*[22:29] <Sacha> Caleb that is a good idea
*[22:30] <Sacha> I would be against just blanket approval of the bylaws, if you mean adopting them
*[22:30] <+HariSeldon> agree with caleb
*[22:30] <CalebL*[laptop]> That it be an agenda item this and next.
*[22:30] <Sacha> or do you mean approving them as the official proposal mildbeard ?
*[22:30] <+mildbeard> adopt as bylaws, noting that any deficiencies and omissions can easily be amended later.
*[22:31] <@TeamColtra> I am with mildbeard
*[22:31] <CalebL*[laptop]> So we're doing it like Obamacare? :P
*[22:31] <CalebL*[laptop]> Vote it into effect, then read what's in it later? :P
*[22:31] <@TeamColtra> No, because Obamacare was a copout
*[22:31] <Sacha> I just disagree with that
*[22:31] <@TeamColtra> we will find the flaws eventually and we can quickly fix them... we always spend hours and hours debating stupid shit, and then wind up approving it anyway
*[22:31] <Sacha> I would like to discuss them so that the meaning is understood by all
*[22:31] <@TeamColtra> Let's approve and fix
*[22:32] <Sacha> Why not fix it now?
*[22:32] <Sacha> What is the rush on having it approved?
*[22:32] <@TeamColtra> it takes a vote of 4 people (technically 3 people with minimum quorum) to make a change to bylaws
*[22:32] <Sacha> As long as we actively work on it for these next weeks I see no issue
*[22:32] <@TeamColtra> Sacha do you see something that you want fixed right now?
*[22:32] <Sacha> TeamColtra I am concerned about the officer positions and the committees
*[22:32] <Sacha> I fear that if they are not discussed and the reason is not understood
*[22:33] <Sacha> that when I am gone they will be omitted completely
*[22:33] <+mildbeard> Not seeing a second, I withdraw my motion and move that we adopt the other version as bylaws: http://piratepad.net/zn7hKEJPrm
*[22:33] <Sacha> Those are not bylaws
*[22:33] <Sacha> they are simply the officer duties
*[22:33] <Sacha> you cannot have the bylaws simply be officer duties
*[22:33] <@TeamColtra> Any seconds for mildbeard's new motion?
*[22:34] <CalebL*[laptop]> Perhaps debate first?
*[22:34] <+HariSeldon> i agree with sacha and caleb.
*[22:34] <@TeamColtra> you debate after a motion is on the table
*[22:34] <+HariSeldon> debate first.
*[22:34] <Sacha> I would support Caleb if someone wants to make a debate
*[22:34] <@TeamColtra> right now we have nothing to debate
*[22:34] <+mildbeard> Not hearing any seconds, I withdraw my second motion.
*[22:35] <@TeamColtra> For there to be a debate, we need sides.... to be against something or for something. Right now we just have some text that was submitted to us.
*[22:35] <+mildbeard> But I STRONGLY believe we should just be moving forward with adopting any kind of skeleton bylaws, and amending them on an as-needed basis going forward. It really bothers me that we have this attitude of never doing anything until we get it perfect first.
*[22:36] <+mildbeard> End result: never doing anything.
*[22:36] <@TeamColtra> :) mildbeard if it makes you feel any better, if I represented a state - I would have seconded you.
*[22:36] <+mildbeard> thanks
*[22:36] <Sacha> Mildbeard how about setting a limit of two week's pnc discussion with the third week being voting?
*[22:36] <Sacha> That is an action plan?
*[22:36] <+mildbeard> we already said last week we'd consider the bylaws and this week we'd pass them.
*[22:36] <+Zacqary> Actually. I should have seconded earlier.
*[22:37] <@TeamColtra> What if we just go through these bylaw by bylaw
*[22:37] <@TeamColtra> that way we can accomplish a little tonight
*[22:37] <+Zacqary> For the motion to adopt these: http://piratepad.net/pm9vRozBji
*[22:37] <+Zacqary> They're a little rough but they're a start.
*[22:37] <@TeamColtra> or just remove to blanket adopt those
*[22:38] <@TeamColtra> I am going to move onto the next topic if we don't get some motion onto the floor
*[22:38] <+Zacqary> Motion to adopt these: http://piratepad.net/pm9vRozBji
*[22:38] <+mildbeard> second
*[22:38] <Sacha> Mildbeard no they were simply due last week and we didn't have a meeting
*[22:38] <Sacha> Okay I would like to discuss the committees section though
*[22:39] <@TeamColtra> Okay the motion has been moved and seconded... we are now debating the merits of adopting these bylaws http://piratepad.net/pm9vRozBji
*[22:39] <Sacha> because if we adopt them as is we have to create a board
*[22:39] <Sacha> "okay I would like to discuss the committees section"
*[22:39] <Sacha> sorry I went early
*[22:40] <@TeamColtra> https://pnc.piratenpad.de/amendedbylawsoutline
*[22:40] <@TeamColtra> If you would like to make changes Sacha use that document and make the amendments you would like to see to the motion
*[22:41] <@TeamColtra> Btw, point of order - I am accepting the motion to be in long form that each of the bylaws are included in the motion itself.
*[22:41] <Sacha> I do not wish to make changes
*[22:41] <+Zacqary> Wait a minute, I just noticed some of the bylaws have 2012 expiration dates.
*[22:41] <Sacha> I wish that people explicitly recognize that section and discuss it
*[22:41] <+Zacqary> We need to change those.
*[22:41] <+Zacqary> Because we're adopting them in 2012.
*[22:41] <Sacha> Zac should we just change them as they are clearly a typo?
*[22:41] <+Zacqary> Okay.
*[22:41] <@TeamColtra> ie the motion isn't "pass this URL" but "pass the contents of this url" (which we all knew anyway)
*[22:42] <Sacha> Fixed
*[22:42] <Sacha> Can we spend some time discussing the committees section? It would be the biggest change to how we do business
*[22:43] <Sacha> and I would feel better if we all at least read it and then voted
*[22:43] <Sacha> can we all completely read the proposal before voting? :/
*[22:44] <CalebL*[laptop]> Something doesn't quite make sense:
*[22:44] <CalebL*[laptop]> All the bylaws are under the category or headline 'META'
*[22:44] <+Zacqary> No, that's just the first ones that are bylaws about the bylaws.
*[22:44] <+mildbeard> Personally I think the 3/4 requirement for disbanding committees is too high. However I won't object to it, because that provision can be amended by majority vote if we ever have a problem with it.
*[22:44] <CalebL*[laptop]> and 'Structure of Bylaws' is one step too deep
*[22:45] <CalebL*[laptop]> Should be ===Structure of Bylaws=== not ====Structure of Bylaws====
*[22:45] <+Zacqary> Guys, um...would it be the end of the world if I left? I'm being called to dinner. Like now.
*[22:45] <+Fromm> "This Board will not be a committee that reports to the PNC"
*[22:45] <@TeamColtra> Actually it would Zacqary
*[22:45] <+Fromm> Can someone explain that
*[22:45] <+Zacqary> Fffffffffffuuuuuu
*[22:45] <@TeamColtra> if you leave, we break quorum
*[22:45] <Sacha> Fromm that is why I want this proposal discussed lol
*[22:45] <@TeamColtra> and we have to adjourn
*[22:45] <+mildbeard> Can't kusanagi act for Zacqary?
*[22:46] <Sacha> umm can kusanagi step in
*[22:46] <Sacha> as his alternate?
*[22:46] <@kusanagi> i'm ab ut to head off myselfo
*[22:46] <@TeamColtra> Umm... sure that makes sense :D
*[22:46] <@TeamColtra> lol well one of you has to stay
*[22:46] <+Zacqary> Travis, can YOU be my alternate?
*[22:46] <CalebL*[laptop]> but chair and vice chair can't represent, last I recall
*[22:46] <@kusanagi> that too CalebL*[laptop]
*[22:46] <+mildbeard> chair can't represent.
*[22:46] <@TeamColtra> I certainly cannot
*[22:46] <@TeamColtra> I would have no desire to, my obligation is to the PNC not NY
*[22:47] <+mildbeard> Look, I'm going to move that we vote now and amend later. Move to vote.
*[22:47] <+Fromm> It makes no sense to have something in the bylaws that has no direct connection with the PNC
*[22:47] <+mildbeard> while we have quorum.
*[22:47] <+Zacqary> Second
*[22:47] <Sacha> Mildbeard we have allowed it in the past
*[22:47] <@TeamColtra> You are asking to vote while debate is still happening so I am going to make this a vote for previous question (ie a vote to vote)
*[22:47] <@TeamColtra> all in favour of moving to vote
*[22:47] <+Zacqary> Aye
*[22:47] <+mildbeard> aye
*[22:47] <CalebL*[laptop]> nay
*[22:48] <Sacha> abstain
*[22:48] <+HariSeldon> aye
*[22:48] <Sacha> wait, I can't vote lol nvm
*[22:48] <+Fromm> nay
*[22:48] <+mildbeard> sure Michigan is at large
*[22:48] <@TeamColtra> I think it's because she is QM
*[22:48] <Sacha> I am acting QM though so idk
*[22:48] <@TeamColtra> and since she tallies the votes
*[22:49] <Sacha> If that is all that is voting
*[22:49] <@TeamColtra> but she abstains anyway :P
*[22:49] <@TeamColtra> I call the vote
*[22:49] <Sacha> 3 for, 1 against
*[22:49] <+mildbeard> yeah
*[22:49] <+Zacqary> 2 against but the ayes still have it.
*[22:49] <Sacha> yup
*[22:49] <Sacha> Sorry
*[22:49] <Sacha> 3 for, 1 against, at large against
*[22:49] <+Zacqary> Okay. So. Are we voting to pass these bylaws?
*[22:49] <Sacha> so 3 for, 1.5 against
*[22:50] <Sacha> so I believe it would be passing...
*[22:50] <@TeamColtra> All in favour of passing the bylaws
*[22:50] <+mildbeard> aye
*[22:50] <CalebL*[laptop]> nay
*[22:50] <+Zacqary> Aye
*[22:50] <+HariSeldon> aye
*[22:50] <+Fromm> aye
*[22:51] <Sacha> 4 for, at large against motion passes
*[22:51] <@TeamColtra> Sacha do you mind :)
*[22:51] <Sacha> You were taking so long sorry and I knew how many people were in here and next time I will be good >.<
*[22:51] <@TeamColtra> I like to give everyone a couple minutes to vote, even though the vote will pass the at larges should have a vote on the record
*[22:51] <@TeamColtra> but the vote is now called.
*[22:52] <Sacha> 4 for, at large against
*[22:52] <Sacha> and I will add that the only at large on the rolls is Caleb so the point is moot ish BEHAVING SORRY
*[22:52] <+mildbeard> With the chair's indlugence, I'd like to make a comment.
*[22:53] <@TeamColtra> I know Zacqary has to go... which will break quorum but can homework please be to 1 look over those bylaws and make amendments 2 think about how we can reduce the number of meetings we have to maybe byweekly
*[22:53] <@TeamColtra> mildbeard go ahead
*[22:53] <+mildbeard> I would just like to comment that I see minor problems and many omissions in the new bylaws, and personally I am sure that we will amend them frequently in the future.
*[22:53] <+mildbeard> thanks
*[22:53] <@TeamColtra> Thank you mildbeard I agree entirely
*[22:53] <+Zacqary> Okay, I really gotta get going, guys.
*[22:53] <+Zacqary> See ya.
*[22:53] == Zacqary *[~chatzilla@ihmt-19-243-51-420.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit *[Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 *[Firefox 15.0.1/20120905151427]]
*[22:54] <@TeamColtra> Due to lack of quorum, this meeting is adjourned automatically
*[22:54] <Sacha> I will sit in #bylaws to discuss my rationale with the by laws if anyone is interested in discussing flaws they already see in order to speed along amendment
*[22:54] <CalebL*[laptop]> Use #uspp-bylaws
*[22:54] <+HariSeldon> i would... but i have to go too.
*[22:55] <+HariSeldon> I'll just look at it and find amendments for next time.
*[22:55] <CalebL*[laptop]> The IRCops prefer that channels that are only relevant for a specific geographic area to be prefixed
*[22:55] <Sacha> No problemo, you can email me directly at belle10152@hotmail.com if you wish to ask me questions about it specifically
*[22:55] <CalebL*[laptop]> Same goes for #pnc by the way. xP
*[22:55] <Sacha> Caleb no biggie c:
*[22:55] <+HariSeldon> see ya guys thank you. :)
*[22:56] <Sacha> Bye bye c:

NYPP Home/Updates

2012-10-08T15:18:46Z

Kusanagi:

''Week of October 11th, 2012''
*

New York

2012-08-31T00:50:20Z

Kusanagi: /* Social Media */

== '''Website''' ==
*[http://nypirateparty.org/ Website]

== '''Social Media''' ==
*[[NYPP wiki]]
*[http://www.facebook.com/NewYorkPirateParty Facebook]
*[https://twitter.com/NYPirateParty Twitter]
*[https://www.facebook.com/groups/166218130082883/ Facebook Group]

== '''Contact''' ==
contact@nypirateparty.org

New York

2012-08-31T00:46:25Z

Kusanagi: /* Contact */

== '''Website''' ==
*[http://nypirateparty.org/ Website]

== '''Social Media''' ==
*[[NYPP wiki]]
*[http://www.facebook.com/pages/Pirate-Party-of-New-York/115690788441931 Facebook]
*[https://twitter.com/NYPirateParty Twitter]
*[https://www.facebook.com/groups/166218130082883/ Facebook Group]

== '''Contact''' ==
contact@nypirateparty.org

PNC 8/29/12

2012-08-30T06:19:07Z

Kusanagi: /* =Georgia */

=:'''Agenda PNC MEETING'''
::'''--- 08/29/2012 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/29/12

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*Attending
**Kyle Devore, OR
**Zacqary Adam Green/Daniel Gorski, NY
**Erik Zoltan, MA
**Bradley Hall, FL
**Joseph T. Klein, WI
**Mitch Tuck, GA

*Excused
**None

*Unexcused
**California
**Washington

*Probation
**Oklahoma, 7th week

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====
*Benjamin Sauerhaft Coplon, PA
*Nicholas De Salvio, MD
*Caleb Langeslag, MN
*Cullen Matthews, IL

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====
*Travis McCrea, Washington, Captain
*Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, First Mate
*Amanda Johnson, MI, Acting Quartermaster as requested by Jeff Talada

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting opened at: 09:06pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting closed at: 11:01pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting chaired by Travis McCrea
*Secretary for this meeting is Amanda Johnson
*Quorum is established: Members 6 out of 8 present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/22/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===
====4.1 - Short report of the board members ====

=====Massachusetts=====
*Tabling at the freedom Rally
*Moving beyond Alpha testing for Liquid Feedback
*Still looking for a new treasurer

=====Washington=====
*Absent

=====Oregon=====
*Attempting to reach out to people on facebook

====Georgia====
*No update

=====Florida=====
*getting essays for NSH2

=====New York=====
*Building a platform specific to NY.
*Building membership
*Are in talks with the Green Party of Bronx County about working together on a potential project.

=====California=====
*Absent

=====Wisconsin=====
*Taking a look at their demographics, the demographic is largely millenials
*Desiging a pamphlet for events

==== 4.2 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====
*Working on a voting system for elections

=====Bylaws Committee=====
*Still working on the proposal

=====Convention Committee=====
*Planning on it being web based

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===

*Who is the PNC endorsing for POTUS?
**We will leave this up to the states

*State of AGPPP
**They are working with MI, CA, and IL

=== - AOB - ===
*A suggested amendment to the PNC constitution Article IV Section Two: Eligibility
**Issue tabled for next week

*Motion to adjourn meeting
**4 ayes, Meeting adjourned

*PiratePAC and UC - SKIPPED

*Should PNC provide voter tools? Online voter registration? Polling place lookup? Candidate info? -SKIPPED

*Next meeting: Wednesday, September 6 at 9PM EDT
*Meeting closed: 11:01pm

Log:
[18:02:48] teamcoltra: Hello everyone

[18:02:57] kusanagi: sup

[18:02:58] MrSquared: greetings!

[18:03:07] teamcoltra: Sacha are you here?

[18:03:08] Sacha: Hiya

[18:03:13] teamcoltra: as if on queue

[18:03:20] Deamon: cue*

[18:03:26] teamcoltra: and on cue

[18:03:30] Deamon: sorry, drama nerd

[18:03:38] teamcoltra: She could have been in a line

[18:03:46] teamcoltra: which would have made her on queue as well :)

[18:03:53] Sacha: I am totally in a line

[18:04:03] �Kos� (~Knowledge@q-80-710-157-614.hsd5.mi.comcast.net) joined the channel.

[18:04:04] Deamon: you are definately a politican :P

[18:04:10] �Kos� (~Knowledge@q-80-710-157-614.hsd5.mi.comcast.net) left IRC. (Client Quit)

[18:04:12] �passstab� (~emily@xx.pirate) joined the channel.

[18:04:21] teamcoltra: It's 17:04 EST I call the meeting to order

[18:04:26] Zacqary: Hay gize

[18:04:32] teamcoltra: Sacha is keeping the log

[18:04:36] teamcoltra: err minutes

[18:05:01] teamcoltra: Let's do roll call

[18:05:17] kusanagi: Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, FM

[18:05:18] Deamon: James Eastman Jr., Michigan

[18:05:38] CullenMatthews: Cullen Matthews, IL

[18:05:43] MrSquared: Kyle DeVore, OR

[18:05:44] passstab: kbenjamin sauerhaft coplon, PA

[18:05:49] Sacha: Amanda Johnson, Mi

[18:06:02] Zacqary: Zacqary Adam Green, NY

[18:06:30] teamcoltra: Is it Zacqary or kusanagi who will be representing NY?

[18:06:36] kusanagi: zac is

[18:06:39] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v Zacqary�

[18:06:43] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v MrSquared�

[18:07:14] �mildbeard� (webchat@hknv-28-026-620-99.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined the channel.

[18:07:18] teamcoltra: We are still short on quorum, though we have a lot of people here

[18:07:32] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v mildbeard�

[18:07:44] mildbeard: Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts

[18:07:54] teamcoltra: We need one more

[18:07:59] teamcoltra: Rush are you near your keyboard?

[18:08:21] CalebLangeslag: Caleb Langeslag, MN

[18:08:22] �Kos� (~Knowledge@q-80-710-157-614.hsd5.mi.comcast.net) joined the channel.

[18:10:16] teamcoltra: listens to the jeapordy theme song as we wait

[18:10:18] kusanagi: plays the jeopardy song

[18:10:20] kusanagi: LOL

[18:10:26] itspara: Nicholas De Salvio, MD

[18:10:34] kusanagi: that just happened.

[18:10:35] kusanagi: lol

[18:10:48] Deamon: simulthink

[18:10:58] kusanagi: get outz of mah brains

[18:11:00] Sacha: I am asking CA

[18:11:02] Sacha: if they are in

[18:11:07] teamcoltra: I was just calling Orion

[18:11:11] teamcoltra: err I am calling

[18:11:12] Sacha: so give it a second and i'll see if I can grab them

[18:11:16] Sacha: I am asking matt so go ahead

[18:11:31] teamcoltra: I am calling Georgia next

[18:11:35] �Bosun� (~Bosun@lnwkxuj.titania.net) joined the channel.

[18:11:53] Bosun: Sorry I'm late.

[18:12:00] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v Bosun�

[18:12:11] Sacha: passtab is your name kbenjamin or just benjamin?

[18:12:40] Rush: Aye, FL's here

[18:12:44] Rush: Bradley Hall, FL

[18:12:54] Bosun: Joseph T. Klein Wisconsin

[18:12:56] teamcoltra: matuck_ is coming too

[18:12:59] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v Rush�

[18:13:01] passstab: kbenjamin

[18:13:36] teamcoltra: Okay but perfect so we now have an acceptable number of people here

[18:13:52] teamcoltra: Please review tonights agenda and last weeks minutes https://pnc.piratenpad.de/PNC-8-29-12

[18:15:06] Zacqary: Looks gooood

[18:15:10] Deamon: Good

[18:15:14] kusanagi: yep

[18:15:45] mildbeard: looks fine here too

[18:15:56] teamcoltra: llol I guess I should open it myself

[18:16:01] MrSquared: looks fine

[18:16:10] Sacha: Teamcoltra will you identify as other officers did as well? So that I can grab the state

[18:16:11] matuck_: mitch tuck ga

[18:16:19] Rush: Fine

[18:16:43] teamcoltra: Sacha I don't represent a state

[18:17:01] Sacha: Teamcoltra You are not part of any state?

[18:17:13] teamcoltra: I am a member of the Washington Pirate Party

[18:17:17] teamcoltra: but I don't represent them

[18:17:24] Sacha: Okay, that is what I was asking

[18:17:42] Sacha: Liz is not representing NY but it is still on the log, thank you for helping me out ^_^

[18:17:57] kusanagi: Force of habit, soz

[18:18:36] teamcoltra: Actually, not to sound rude, but for the record you are not an officer of the PNC.

[18:19:04] teamcoltra: Okay

[18:19:08] Sacha: Kusanagi, no I approve since the whole point of identifying is so people know where you are from and who you are

[18:19:24] Sacha: Das okay, it didn't make sense to put me in at large so I just made a new category for me

[18:19:38] Sacha: Sorry for all ze interruptions

[18:19:50] teamcoltra: I actually disagree, we have no bylaw requiring a state from the officers. However, I am willing to just go with the flow so we can carry on.

[18:20:13] Sacha: Okay

[18:20:28] teamcoltra: mildbeard can you give Massachusetts report?

[18:21:07] mildbeard: Our big upcoming event is the "Freedom Rally" which is a cannabis legalization rally. We have a nice vendor
table and it's a big opportunity for MAPP.

[18:21:28] mildbeard: Our liquid feedback testing is at a stage where we're going to move beyond the alpha testing part.

[18:21:54] mildbeard: We are still looking for a new treasurer. Our main people are a bit overtasked.

[18:22:01] mildbeard: And that's all for Massachusetts.

[18:22:05] teamcoltra: Sweet

[18:22:06] teamcoltra: Thanks

[18:22:15] teamcoltra: Washington isn't here

[18:22:20] teamcoltra: Oregon / MrSquared

[18:22:43] teamcoltra: (ps matuck_ if you are around, you will be up next)

[18:23:06] MrSquared: I've been working on and off on getting a facebook page up. It is currently up, but there is no content or
likes

[18:23:08] MrSquared: https://www.facebook.com/oregonpp

[18:23:12] �itspara� (webchat@s-85-726-668-82.hsd2.md.comcast.net) left IRC. (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)

[18:23:46] MrSquared: Also, I am attempting to reach out to the people in our FB group (almost 350 of them) to organize a meeting
on G+ Hangouts

[18:23:52] teamcoltra: lol you were not kidding, you didn't even like the page yourself ;)

[18:24:03] MrSquared: but so far it's just me and Jorden

[18:24:16] MrSquared: haha whoops

[18:24:23] �itspara� (~AndChat64@69.255.xyx.lw) joined the channel.

[18:24:35] MrSquared: and that is it

[18:24:42] teamcoltra: Well progress is progress

[18:24:55] teamcoltra: matuck_ are you around?

[18:25:01] matuck_: I havnt talked to jarod in a week or so ... I dont really have an update for GA

[18:25:10] teamcoltra: :) No problem

[18:25:13] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v MrSquared�

[18:25:20] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v matuck_�

[18:25:36] teamcoltra: Florida / Rush

[18:26:04] Rush: Florida is doing well. We just started getting essays for NSH2. I haven't been able to read through them yet, but
they look good.

[18:26:08] Rush: That is all

[18:27:13] teamcoltra: Thanks rush

[18:27:33] teamcoltra: You and your members all handled the storms well?

[18:27:58] Rush: Most of Florida didn't get much of it

[18:28:11] Rush: Where I am, we got like, 20 minutes of rain per day

[18:28:24] Rush: but it's fits and sprts

[18:28:26] Rush: spurts

[18:28:37] teamcoltra: :) That's thankful. Better than overflowing levvys

[18:28:42] teamcoltra: okay New York / Zacqary

[18:29:40] Zacqary: We've been gaining membership and are going to be experimenting with G+ hangout meetings.

[18:29:59] Zacqary: And coming up this week, we'll be working on building a platform relevant to New York.

[18:30:12] Zacqary: Possibly focusing on economic issues.

[18:30:35] Zacqary: The Bronx County Green Party has contacted us about working together on activist projects.

[18:30:41] Zacqary: Nothing concrete yet, but we're talking to them.

[18:31:04] Zacqary: Oh, and we just got an official social media guy.

[18:31:10] Zacqary: I think that's it.

[18:31:15] kusanagi: Well, not offical juuuuuust yet

[18:31:24] kusanagi: but tomorrow, he should be

[18:31:29] kusanagi: that's all. sorry :3

[18:31:41] teamcoltra: kk

[18:31:49] teamcoltra: Thanks New York

[18:31:53] teamcoltra: and California isn't here

[18:31:58] teamcoltra: so Bosun from Wisconson

[18:32:03] teamcoltra: Wisconsin*

[18:32:12] Bosun: The organizing team has been discussing demographic trends looking at this: http://pewresearch.org/millennials/
We skew heavy on FB toward Millennials - which is probably natural. Francis (our treasurer and best spokesman) is moving to Madison tomorrow, he expects to work on a UW student organization and organize in Madison in his spare time.

[18:33:40] Bosun: We are desighning a pamphlet for events. that is all.

[18:35:43] teamcoltra: Thanks Bosun

[18:36:06] teamcoltra: matuck_ or anyone working on IT do we have any updates?

[18:36:25] kusanagi: CalebLangeslag, ping

[18:37:08] matuck_: i will let CalebLangeslag chime in here

[18:37:11] CalebLangeslag: Nothing I can think of. I had a very decent idea for electronic voting, but having documented the idea
yet (and perhaps wouldn't have the manpower alone to implement it)

[18:37:25] CalebLangeslag: haven't documented*

[18:37:47] CalebLangeslag: Since the OpenSSL API is a beastly beast, last I recall

[18:38:22] CalebLangeslag: EOF

[18:38:28] kusanagi: heh

[18:38:32] teamcoltra: Do you need any help with it? Do you want people to email you? Should we put a call out on Facebook/Twitter
to help you with anything?

[18:38:36] Bosun: I am playing with the drupal voting modual.

[18:39:33] CalebLangeslag: Well, it would be nice to get people active in #uspp-it, so that we can pursue any reasonable projects
that are brought up; and especially for opinions/feedback on certain project ideas.

[18:40:29] CalebLangeslag: and I'm talking of an actual voting system in which it would be anonymous, yet registered on record for each person, and where people can verify the vote count themselves, or validate that their vote was submitted

[18:40:33] teamcoltra: CalebLangeslag but for a person who doesn't care to get involved with the overall team but wants to help you with a project is this something you want a call out for? or do you want to wait until you actually have a gameplan?

[18:41:28] CalebLangeslag: Well, I would like to get it implemented; I just need to freaking draw it up (as I've been lazy to do), and we could certainly go into implementation as long as there are no conceptual flaws with it

[18:41:49] teamcoltra: Well then I will let you keep working on it, shoot me a message if you ever need help :)

[18:41:50] CalebLangeslag: Because I believe it's absolutely possible

[18:42:03] �kusanagi� (~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) left IRC. (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

[18:42:04] teamcoltra: Anything else?

[18:42:10] CalebLangeslag: and if we can pull it off, we'll probably have the most badass voting system there is. :P

[18:42:12] CalebLangeslag: Not much else.

[18:42:38] �kusanagi� (~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) joined the channel.

[18:42:38] �ChanServ� sets mode �+o kusanagi�

[18:43:13] teamcoltra: Okay Sacha have you decided against brining up your amendment discussion?

[18:43:22] teamcoltra: (I only ask because we are moving onto bylaws committee report next)

[18:44:21] Sacha: I decided not to bring up that one

[18:44:28] teamcoltra: Okay then bylaws committee Zacqary

[18:46:16] Zacqary: Not much to report. We've still been working on the bylaws.

[18:46:36] Zacqary: Not sure I can give an ETA but we'll try and get them ready to present soon.

[18:46:40] teamcoltra: kk

[18:46:51] teamcoltra: Convention Committtee

[18:46:55] teamcoltra: who did we put in charge of that?

[18:47:14] mildbeard: Bosun?

[18:47:21] kusanagi: yes

[18:47:35] Bosun: We had a meeting on Thursday. I am on a different computer and have misplaced the URL to the notes.

[18:48:02] teamcoltra: How convenient ;)

[18:48:05] teamcoltra: (jk of course)

[18:48:23] teamcoltra: Do you have a summary of what was discussed?

[18:48:23] Bosun: We will meet again at the same time thursday at 8pm on irc #usahcc

[18:49:11] Deamon: I can give it

[18:49:34] Bosun: Please.

[18:49:58] Deamon: We were discussing ways to do a convention quickly due to the small time constraint laid out in last weeks
meeting and we came up with a few

[18:50:34] Bosun: Voting issues came up.

[18:50:49] Bosun: Credentials.

[18:50:51] Deamon: We were thinking of having it be a web-based convention, hosted on a single site which would direct people to
meetings created by members throughout a 2 or 3 day period

[18:51:08] Deamon: Issue meetings, state meetings etc.

[18:51:48] Deamon: Have it be more focused on getting people in and talking to our current members to get more people into state
parties and maybe help form more in states were not currently running in

[18:52:00] teamcoltra: I have comments on these,as I am sure others will as well - I just want to pre-emptively ask that no one
provide feedback here, and attend their meeting if you have input

[18:52:12] Deamon: We welcome all comers

[18:52:23] Deamon: if thats a word

[18:52:33] teamcoltra: All words were made up at some point

[18:52:55] Deamon: If anyone from IT is here we are definately going to need help with the voting system

[18:53:01] Deamon: and thats all I got

[18:53:06] teamcoltra: Sweet, thanks Deamon

[18:53:08] teamcoltra: and Bosun

[18:53:14] teamcoltra: Agenda Items

[18:53:30] teamcoltra: First up PNC endorsement, whose agenda item was this?

[18:53:37] teamcoltra: Looks like NY?

[18:54:26] kusanagi: On request of Rush

[18:54:37] Rush: what

[18:54:44] teamcoltra: Okay well does Rush or NY want to speak first on the item

[18:54:50] Rush: what item

[18:54:52] kusanagi: sure

[18:55:01] teamcoltra: Endorsing a POTUS candidate

[18:55:16] Rush: Oh right

[18:55:20] kusanagi: We've been fielding a few questions from supporters about endorsing a ticket

[18:55:34] Rush: Some people on the Facebook accounts have asked who the party is endorsing for President

[18:55:39] Rush: among other positions

[18:55:43] kusanagi: and on IRC as well

[18:57:09] teamcoltra: Were there suggestions on who to endorse?

[18:57:17] kusanagi: No

[18:57:25] Rush: Jill Stein

[18:57:29] kusanagi: at least not from those asking

[18:57:38] teamcoltra: I meant in the channel

[18:57:49] kusanagi: oh

[18:57:52] kusanagi: >.>

[18:58:25] mildbeard: as long as it's not Romney...

[18:58:38] teamcoltra: I /cannot/ vote for someone who blatantly violates civil liberties. Our current president has had more civil
liberties abuses than his predecessor, and the Democrats were the last hold outs on both SOPA and PIPA. He approves the assassination of US citizens without trial... and has not only not fulfilled his promise to shut down gitmo, had signed the legislation to increase it's power to send US citizens there as well. I cannot vote for the

[18:58:38] teamcoltra: incumbent, and would not be able to put my support behind him

[18:58:49] Bosun: We endorse "not Romney"

[18:59:05] kusanagi: Bosun, lol

[18:59:05] Rush: lol

[18:59:13] teamcoltra: Honestly I support Bosun's idea

[18:59:26] Zacqary: But also not Obama?

[18:59:41] CalebLangeslag: highfives teamcoltra and mildbeard

[18:59:43] teamcoltra: I love the idea of supporting the Greens, but we need to distance ourselves from them, and show that we are
not a rehash of the Green Party (something they will start using against us once we become popular)

[18:59:44] Rush: Not Robomney

[18:59:49] CalebLangeslag: Perfect

[19:00:17] Bosun: I have the same problem with Obama as stated above. Even if I end up voting for him rather than Romney.

[19:00:17] CalebLangeslag: I was worried there, when I saw that agenda item before the meeting, of what the result would be. xP

[19:00:25] teamcoltra: In Canada they already say "there is no reason to vote Pirate, when you can vote Green" which is a lie, but
it would be worse here if we start endorsing their candidates

[19:01:02] mildbeard: At this early stage in our development, it won't help a candidate much for us to endorse them. But it may
hurt us.

[19:01:12] teamcoltra: mildbeard I agree with you

[19:01:30] kusanagi: yeah

[19:01:36] MrSquared: What about Libertarian?

[19:01:37] Deamon: thoughts on Gary Johnson of the Libertarians?

[19:01:43] MrSquared: lol

[19:01:45] Bosun: Please, no endorsment. We can ask that other candidate formally sighn on to our major platform point and we will list who complies.

[19:01:47] Rush: I haven't heard much of him

[19:01:59] Rush: that's an idea

[19:02:05] teamcoltra: If a non-democrat democrat was running (like Sanders or Kucinich) I would be willing to endorse them

[19:02:21] mildbeard: In Massachusetts we've benn contacted by a Libertarian candidate who explicitly endorses Pirate Party policies. That's a special case though.

[19:02:27] itspara: I like johnson

[19:02:35] MrSquared: i do as well

[19:02:51] Deamon: Johnson is very supportive of Net Nuetrality, its the other issue we may come to blows on

[19:02:52] itspara: But stein is also good

[19:02:53] CalebLangeslag: I would have no problems with Johnson at all

[19:02:55] teamcoltra: I would be nervous endorsing a libertarian as well, because we do promote a lot of government programs too

[19:03:00] Bosun: Sanders is an Independent and a card carring Socialist.

[19:03:02] Deamon: yeah

[19:03:19] Zacqary: My problem with Johnson is that he waves legalizing pot in everyone's faces to make them forget about the fact that his economic policies make no sernse.

[19:03:21] Zacqary: *sense

[19:03:23] teamcoltra: our commitment to humanism requires (at least in my mind) basic healthcare for people and stuff

[19:03:51] Rush: Guys, I need to flee, I have early day of stuff tomorrow. I'll read logs tomorrow

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[19:04:14] CalebLangeslag: Just not the current implementation in the US, correct?

[19:04:25] Deamon: Definately

[19:04:33] teamcoltra: Obamacare is a joke, what we need is a nationalized health insurance plan

[19:04:42] kusanagi: it's a step though

[19:04:50] teamcoltra: It was pandering

[19:05:00] kusanagi: I know, but it's still a step.

[19:05:01] Bosun: The dems left want single payer.

[19:05:18] Zacqary: Hey, mildbeard, how's Romneycare working out in MA?

[19:05:25] Zacqary: Does it actually work?

[19:05:34] mildbeard: The battle between the Dems and Reps is just a smokescreen to cover up the fact that they're both owned by
the corporations.

[19:05:34] teamcoltra: Let's not get off track?

[19:05:40] Bosun: I have a service related problem and get VA healthcare. It works for me.

[19:05:58] teamcoltra: Does anyone want to make a motion to support any candidate?

[19:06:01] teamcoltra: if not we should move on

[19:06:15] mildbeard: We should leave this to the state parties, I think.

[19:06:36] Bosun: I propose we support "Not Romney"

[19:06:46] teamcoltra: any seconds?

[19:07:24] Bosun: OK leave it up to the states.

[19:07:36] teamcoltra: Okay lets move on

[19:07:40] teamcoltra: State of AGP3

[19:07:53] teamcoltra: since California isn't here, I would like to speak on this first unless there is an objection?

[19:08:35] teamcoltra: Okay so I am going to be talking with Karl on Skype about AGP3 soon

[19:09:17] teamcoltra: And I will be in Germany in about 20 days to formalize everything and to discuss the future of our parties
in person.

[19:09:46] teamcoltra: Germany wants to focus on one state (California) and try to help them get going as a party

[19:09:54] teamcoltra: then use that success to help other states out

[19:10:06] teamcoltra: Instead of trying to blanket support everyone and just getting burned out

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[19:10:14] teamcoltra: Any questions comments or concerns

[19:10:52] kusanagi: well, it appears that other states are getting help now

[19:11:15] kusanagi: there has been no mention of this, save for one meeting, untill i asked today what was going on in the
facebook group

[19:11:54] teamcoltra: it was said in previous meetings as well

[19:12:17] kusanagi: i just said that

[19:12:31] kusanagi: as far as i knew, only mipp got flyers or something

[19:12:33] teamcoltra: You just said there was no mention of it, I am saying there has been

[19:12:42] kusanagi: travis.

[19:12:53] Deamon: Amanda, did you get them? I have heard nothing on it

[19:12:57] kusanagi: she did

[19:13:05] Sacha: What, one second

[19:13:17] kusanagi: i just said that only 1 meeting has had a mention of this.

[19:13:58] teamcoltra: The status hasn't changed, there was no need to make another update on something that hasn't changed

[19:13:58] Sacha: Karl said that he wants to talk to Mi, NY and the PNC

[19:14:09] Sacha: not just california, but that he will offer help to california

[19:14:20] Sacha: Also Deamon you know about this, he was in a meeting to help us remember

[19:14:26] Sacha: and he sent us stickers and flyers, I told you about that

[19:14:34] Sacha: I told the whole PNC about the stickers and flyers

[19:14:47] kusanagi: teamcoltra, well I wasn't aware, and I wanted a formal record of it.

[19:14:52] kusanagi: It's been some time.

[19:15:16] Sacha: As far as I am concerned there is no reason to discuss what MiPP and AGPPP are talking about in the PNC

[19:15:22] Sacha: whatever help they offer and we accept is up to us

[19:15:30] Sacha: as a state party we have that autonomy

[19:15:34] teamcoltra: Yes, but the focus will be California (or a single state) to get them going. They might help all the
parties. However, there will be a big drive to help California reach their signature requirement. Maybe a second state, but the agreement that was made so far is that we don't want to strech the support too thin

[19:15:52] Sacha: and when we gave our report about what we'd been up to, we would mention it along with everything else we have been up to

[19:15:55] kusanagi: IL has been a focus too.

[19:16:02] kusanagi: or, from what i understand

[19:16:13] Sacha: Then I guess IL is a focus as well

[19:16:24] kusanagi: shouldn't all states be getting that help?

[19:16:26] Sacha: I am just not quite sure why the PNC needs to be involved in state business

[19:16:27] teamcoltra: There is a difference between getting support, and being the focus. Which is what I am trying to say.

[19:16:32] teamcoltra: No, kusanagi, they shouldn't be.

[19:16:33] Sacha: If Travis wants to talk to Karl he can

[19:16:42] kusanagi: Ok, that's fine

[19:16:47] Sacha: If you want to talk to Karl, Kusanagi go ahead

[19:16:52] kusanagi: already am.

[19:17:05] Sacha: I do not see why it needs to be an agenda point unless the PNC as the PNC does something with AGPPP

[19:17:25] teamcoltra: If we can get successful in one state, then we can get the media attention which can help other parties get the members needed to start in their state.

[19:17:41] teamcoltra: Also we can learn what is working and what is not... and then share that information.

[19:17:50] kusanagi: okay, that's good.

[19:17:58] Sacha: TeamColtra Very true and how Karl wants to help out in the long term to the party overall would be best discussed with you, not the PNC

[19:18:04] teamcoltra: I am discussing in depth side-by-side support. There would not be enough resources to help all the states like that

[19:18:13] Sacha: if a state wants help they can contact you to contact him or contact Karl

[19:18:15] kusanagi: guys

[19:18:27] kusanagi: Would CullenMatthews be allowed to speak on the matter,seeing as he's from IL?

[19:18:45] teamcoltra: CullenMatthews do you have information about AGP3?

[19:18:50] teamcoltra: that hasn't been shared?

[19:18:54] CullenMatthews: yes

[19:18:57] teamcoltra: Go ahead

[19:20:07] CullenMatthews: Karl has contacted me about forming an ILPP but however we are still trying to recruit new members. also he asked me about coming up with a ILPP constiution so he can publish it on the AGP3 webpage which is still in a rough draft phase

[19:22:02] teamcoltra: Was that all?

[19:22:11] CullenMatthews: as far as im aware yes

[19:22:38] teamcoltra: Okay was there anything else we need to discuss on the state of AGP3?

[19:22:54] kusanagi: No, I just wanted an update. this was sufficient.

[19:23:20] teamcoltra: A suggested amendment to the PNC constitution Article IV Section Two: Eligibility

[19:23:22] Sacha: I have a real quick question if that is okay?

[19:23:28] teamcoltra: yeah go ahead Sacha

[19:24:00] Sacha: Nevermind it is a needlessly combative comment I just decided

[19:24:09] teamcoltra: Okay so A suggested amendment to the PNC constitution Article IV Section Two: Eligibility

[19:24:12] teamcoltra: whose was this?

[19:24:17] Sacha: Me

[19:24:21] teamcoltra: go ahead

[19:24:32] Zacqary: Guys, I need to leave. Sorry. My alt might be able to show up for the rest of the meeting if needed. See you

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[19:25:13] Sacha: Okay so my suggested amendment has to do with the constitution

[19:25:30] kusanagi: as opposed to.. lol

[19:25:43] Sacha: Article IV section 2, eligibility of officers

[19:25:49] Sacha: the constitution reads

[19:26:03] teamcoltra: retract the claws kusanagi

[19:26:05] Sacha: "Section 2: Eligibility To be eligible to hold one of the positions set forth in Art. IV §1, a candidate must be
an active member of a Pirate Party based in a Member State of the PNC. To be eligible to hold the position of Captain set forth in Art. IV §1.1, a candidate must not be a Representative of a Member State, or must abdicate the role of Representative upon election as Captain."

[19:26:10] Sacha: My problem is with number 1

[19:26:34] Sacha: is that it is too restrictive

[19:26:40] mildbeard: I completely agree, that needs to be changed.

[19:26:46] Sacha: I remember that we discussed this in the committee

[19:26:50] Sacha: and did not want it in

[19:26:52] OyajiVyse: Daniel Gorski, NY rep

[19:26:58] Sacha: but I think we were pressured by time and forgot

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[19:27:21] teamcoltra: I remember it being discussed and removed, to be honest.

[19:27:33] Sacha: As do I

[19:27:34] teamcoltra: but I didn't participate much, so I could be wrong

[19:27:39] Sacha: yet somehow it is in the final copy

[19:27:47] kusanagi: I don't recall that.. does anyone else?

[19:27:52] Sacha: Yes

[19:28:01] Sacha: it was in the comment section of the google doc

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[19:28:06] Sacha: you were not there

[19:28:12] kusanagi: I would have seen t.

[19:28:18] teamcoltra: moving along...

[19:28:20] kusanagi: i did read it in the process.

[19:28:28] mildbeard: We changed that section but this was the last thing that we didn't change. It was even more restrictive
before.

[19:28:46] teamcoltra: It doesn't matter if it was or wasn't removed or how it happened, it just matters that it is there now

[19:29:24] mildbeard: It would be nice if we had a constitutional amendment as a first agenda item when we have more states
present.

[19:29:38] mildbeard: otherwise I'd say we should go right ahead and vote on it.

[19:29:51] teamcoltra: we are still above quorum

[19:29:54] Sacha: What i would like to suggest is that a member state moves to remove it

[19:30:30] teamcoltra: Actually we only lost Florida

[19:30:48] mildbeard: Can someone repeat the language of item 1?

[19:31:00] teamcoltra: Current or amended?

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[19:31:29] mildbeard: Sorry I didn't realize there was amended language.

[19:31:34] mildbeard: What is it amended to?

[19:32:08] teamcoltra: lol I don't think there was any, but I thought you might have thought you missed it

[19:32:26] teamcoltra: §1.1, a candidate must not be a Representative of a Member State, or must abdicate the role of
Representative upon election as Captain."

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[19:33:01] teamcoltra: err

[19:33:04] Sacha_: We can always wait until next week

[19:33:07] Sacha_: as there is no time issue

[19:33:20] teamcoltra: Section 2: Eligibility To be eligible to hold one of the positions set forth in Art. IV §1, a candidate must
be an active member of a Pirate Party based in a Member State of the PNC. To be eligible to hold the position of Captain set forth in Art. IV §1.1, a candidate must not be a Representative of a Member State, or must abdicate the role of Representative upon election as Captain.

[19:33:20] mildbeard: What does the entire section look like if we just strike that item 1.1?

[19:33:28] teamcoltra: 1.1 isn't the problem

[19:33:36] teamcoltra: it's hte a candidate must be an active member of a Pirate Party based in a Member State of the PNC.

[19:33:41] mildbeard: aha

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[19:34:00] mildbeard: How about strike the whole thing?

[19:34:14] teamcoltra: The problem is a very real one too... while technically I am a member of the Washington Pirate Party, it really is a loose technicality

[19:34:28] Sacha_: I agree with Mildbeard

[19:34:42] Bosun: I'm confused can sacha state how it would be proposed to read?

[19:34:43] teamcoltra: I like 1.1 though

[19:34:46] Sacha_: Well I think the second one is needed

[19:34:52] Sacha_: Travis

[19:34:56] teamcoltra: if you are elected you can't also be the representative of your state

[19:35:13] Bosun: Yes agreed

[19:35:20] Sacha_: 2.1 says that a person needs to be part of a member state

[19:35:23] Sacha_: why do you agree with that one

[19:35:26] mildbeard: So it would be changed to read as follows.

[19:36:02] Sacha_: I would expand the second one to include all officers of the PNC, we do not need conflicts of interest. you can
be an alt but not the main rep

[19:36:11] mildbeard: Section2: Eligibility. To be eligible to hold the position of caption set forth in Article IV section1.1, a candidate must not be a representative of a member state, or must abdicate the role of representative upon election as Captain.

[19:36:32] kusanagi: No, you shouldn't be a rep at all if elected, especially for Captain.

[19:37:04] kusanagi: either alt or main rep, no

[19:37:04] Bosun: /Captain/s/Officer/

[19:37:08] kusanagi: yes

[19:37:11] Sacha_: Mildbeard I think we should change it to be officer rather than just captain

[19:37:15] mildbeard: That was in the previous version and I objected to it.

[19:37:17] Sacha_: Kusanagi I disagree with the second

[19:37:27] Sacha_: some states do not have enough members to do so

[19:37:40] Sacha_: Being an alt is fine as the alt is rarely used

[19:37:52] kusanagi: we have 2 alts right now.

[19:37:54] Sacha_: and they simply will not act as their position in that case

[19:38:13] Sacha_: like you did with first mate and being rep for NY when Zac couldn't make it

[19:39:03] teamcoltra: It seems silly to allow them to be the official alt, if they cannot actually fulfill the position of alt

[19:39:10] kusanagi: teamcoltra, exactly

[19:39:24] Bosun: /a representative/s/a primary representative/

[19:39:28] kusanagi: Sacha_, that was because we usually can't pull someone up

[19:39:29] Sacha_: TeamColtra why can they not do that?

[19:39:40] kusanagi: that's a last resort, really

[19:39:42] Sacha_: If they need to be an alt

[19:39:51] Sacha_: then they act as alt

[19:39:54] teamcoltra: Because you can't run a meeting and be a representative.

[19:40:19] Sacha_: and we have a procedure in the bylaws for if an officer cannot make it

[19:40:22] Sacha_: so that goes into effect

[19:40:27] Bosun: clearly it would be a conflict of interest.

[19:40:43] Sacha_: Bosun No it wouldn't

[19:40:49] kusanagi: yes, it could be

[19:40:49] Sacha_: they would not be acting as an officer

[19:40:56] Sacha_: in the rare case that they act as an alt

[19:41:02] Sacha_: Alts are rarely called on

[19:41:05] kusanagi: um

[19:41:07] kusanagi: no

[19:41:14] kusanagi: it happens quite often

[19:41:22] Sacha_: Not that I have seen

[19:41:25] kusanagi: isn't there even an alt from MIPP here?

[19:41:41] kusanagi: I usually sub in for zac, matuck_ subbing for jarod right now

[19:41:51] Sacha_: kusanagi No, there is a rep

[19:41:52] Deamon: I guess technically I am the alt

[19:41:59] Sacha_: No you are a full rep

[19:42:01] Sacha_: not an alt

[19:42:16] Brendan: just have it such that both positions can be held by the same person, but not during the same meeting

[19:42:22] Sacha_: We are switching between people as our alt, remember

[19:42:22] teamcoltra: In PPI it's generally frowned upon if a PPI board member also acts as a countries representative... because
other countries feel uncomfortable approaching them with concerns about the board

[19:42:33] Brendan: so if the captain is the alt, and the main person from that can't turn up, they either 1) find another alt or
2) have another USPP board member chair the meeting

[19:42:39] Sacha_: Brendan That is what I was saying, I completely agree with you there

[19:42:58] Sacha_: Brendan In the bylaws proposal we have a procedure for no. 2 outlined, so we could use that

[19:43:09] teamcoltra: Like when I was both PPI Board and PPCA's PPI liason, another state wanted to file a complaint against the
PPI Board, so he wanted to talk to Canada, but couldn't because I was on the board and it would be a conflict of interest

[19:43:18] Sacha_: Alt = rep in my switching comment

[19:43:22] teamcoltra: Even if they knew I would be fair, it's the perception amongst other people

[19:43:32] teamcoltra: I would have to choose between my country and the PPI board

[19:43:38] Sacha_: Teamcoltra that is because you were both at the same time

[19:43:46] Sacha_: To me it is the same as saying Kusanagi cannot be an officer

[19:43:47] Mozart: teamcoltra: Greg and Lola are both the International Officers for their respective countries.

[19:43:50] Sacha_: because she is from new york

[19:43:57] Sacha_: and in NYPP

[19:44:01] Sacha_: so she will have a conflict of interest

[19:44:07] kusanagi: no

[19:44:08] mildbeard: OK so we're saying no requirement for any officer to live in a member state, and no officer can also be or act as the state rep. Is that the consensus?

[19:44:10] Brendan: Mozart: which is probably a good counterexample to what Sacha_ wants haha

[19:44:12] teamcoltra: Mozart I don't usually use Greg and Lola as my examples of what should be done.

[19:44:13] Sacha_: if you are not acting as both in the same meeting, then there will be no conflict of interest

[19:44:15] Bosun: How about an officer cannot be a primary representative nor may the captain be either a primary or alternate of
a member state

[19:44:29] kusanagi: mildbeard, i would prefer to see there be a requirement for an officer to be from a member state

[19:44:39] kusanagi: otherwise, why even join the pnc?

[19:44:54] kusanagi: the only thing one couldn't do is make or second a motion

[19:44:55] teamcoltra: To vote, to speak

[19:44:56] mildbeard: kusanagi, a full member state?

[19:45:00] Sacha_: Kusanagi Not all states are full members or can be yet

[19:45:01] kusanagi: yes

[19:45:05] Sacha_: We are extremely young

[19:45:05] mildbeard: I disagree.

[19:45:16] Sacha_: Why would we limit the opportunities like that

[19:45:22] teamcoltra: lol there are a lot of advantages of being a full member other than getting to field PNC candidates

[19:45:25] Sacha_: we only have what... 8 full member states?

[19:45:39] kusanagi: yes. 9 if we could somehow pull marcus back

[19:45:48] mildbeard: We don't want to restrict who we can recruit as an officer, and we're making it very hard for states to put
forward candidates. We're going to wind up with a very small pool of people who can act as officers. We want the best we can get.

[19:45:53] Sacha_: Kusanagi So 8

[19:46:05] Bosun: How about allowing affiliates to members states for people from unorganized or unrecognized states?

[19:46:06] kusanagi: Sacha_, yes, i just agreed.

[19:46:12] Sacha_: only 8 people can be candidates from the beginning

[19:46:16] kusanagi: no

[19:46:18] kusanagi: not 8

[19:46:23] kusanagi: but members of those parties

[19:46:29] Sacha_: and then to say that they have at least 3 people in those states be active enough

[19:46:33] kusanagi: that's how i interpretted it

[19:46:40] Sacha_: and availabe enough to make PNC meetings

[19:46:47] teamcoltra: Okay how about a compromise: A full member state has to approve the nomination of the candidate, but they can approve the nomination of as many candidates as they wish

[19:46:48] Sacha_: is nuts

[19:46:53] matuck_: got to bounce guys

[19:46:59] teamcoltra: take care mildbeard

[19:46:59] teamcoltra: err

[19:47:00] teamcoltra: matuck_

[19:47:12] Sacha_: You only have 8 pools to collect people from

[19:47:16] kusanagi: good night, matuck_

[19:47:29] Sacha_: night matuck_

[19:47:45] mildbeard: you can exclude Mass - we don't have anyone with the bandwidth who can make that kind of time commitment in
addition to having a PNC rep.

[19:47:47] teamcoltra: So let's say I run, mildbeard can say "Travis, I might not agree with everything you have done -- but I approve you running for officer"

[19:47:55] Sacha_: Michigan would be out

[19:48:01] Sacha_: Washington would be out

[19:48:04] Sacha_: Florida would be out

[19:48:21] Sacha_: I believe Wi would be out as I have only seen two reps

[19:48:25] kusanagi: FL wouldn't be out. they could post it

[19:48:26] teamcoltra: That way it weeds out people who came out of no where

[19:48:41] Sacha_: Kusanagi no, you have to have a stated alt

[19:48:45] Sacha_: so rush could not be an alt

[19:48:50] Sacha_: and his alt would have to be main

[19:48:56] Sacha_: so you would need another person to agree to be out

[19:48:58] kusanagi: no, they could do what NY has done

[19:49:03] Sacha_: i am not even sure if fl has an official alt

[19:49:23] kusanagi: ask to see if anyone is interested in the PNC alt/rep or Officer position

[19:49:23] Sacha_: Kusanagi NY has you as an alt

[19:49:30] kusanagi: No

[19:49:34] Sacha_: Non-issue

[19:49:34] kusanagi: OyajiVyse is.

[19:49:39] OyajiVyse: waves

[19:49:41] Sacha_: let's get back on track

[19:49:46] kusanagi: lol

[19:49:51] Sacha_: So Mass would be out

[19:49:58] Sacha_: Washington would be out

[19:50:04] Sacha_: Georgia would be out

[19:50:22] Sacha_: Oregon would be out I am pretty sure

[19:50:28] Sacha_: I think wisconsin would be out

[19:50:39] Sacha_: So I see New York, California and Florida maybe

[19:50:58] Bosun: No I have people.

[19:50:58] Sacha_: So with those qualifications that is our pool of people to get officers from

[19:51:05] teamcoltra: Here are my two compromises - I now agree that as long as our captain does not represent a state, the FM can... however, if they ever get ascended to CpN they have to give up other roles of course. A person can be from anywhere, but their nomination has to be approved by a member state

[19:51:36] kusanagi: teamcoltra, that's reasonable.

[19:51:38] teamcoltra: The member state approval isn't a big deal, because if you can't find one member state to approve your
nomination, you were not going to win anyway

[19:51:43] Bosun: I like the comprimise.

[19:51:48] Sacha_: Teamcoltra FM and Qm

[19:52:01] teamcoltra: Sacha_ yes

[19:52:08] mildbeard: Isn't it FO?

[19:52:16] Sacha_: Teamcoltra I like the compromise

[19:52:31] teamcoltra: ;) it's why they elected me Captain

[19:52:38] Bosun: Yeah what she said.

[19:52:47] teamcoltra: mildbeard - First Mate

[19:52:52] teamcoltra: Quartermaster

[19:52:58] mildbeard: Not First Officer?

[19:53:05] teamcoltra: I don't think so, unless we changed the name

[19:53:09] Sacha_: Mildbeard I know that was a suggestion but I cannot recall if we agreed to change it because as I recall the
disagreement was based on the idea that it is weird to call a woman a firstmate

[19:53:11] mildbeard: ok np

[19:53:16] kusanagi: i think it was, now that it's been mentioned

[19:53:22] kusanagi: Sacha_, I CAN CONFIRM THE WEIRD

[19:53:23] kusanagi: lol

[19:53:36] mildbeard: right

[19:53:44] kusanagi: :P

[19:53:58] Sacha_: One second

[19:54:00] Sacha_: I can look it up

[19:54:01] teamcoltra: Okay so does anyone want to formulate that into a motion

[19:54:02] Bosun: If we have language, Wisconsin will so move.

[19:54:57] OyajiVyse: why do we need universal inclusion anyway?

[19:54:57] mildbeard: Guys I have to drop in the next 4 min.

[19:55:04] teamcoltra: Then after this motion, I owuld ask that we adjourn

[19:55:07] Sacha_: We agreed to change it to first officer

[19:55:09] teamcoltra: and carry the next to items ot next week

[19:55:18] Sacha_: so i'll go through the bylaws and the constitution while I am at it and change it

[19:55:24] kusanagi: don't have a pool otherwise

[19:55:43] teamcoltra: Or do we want to move this to next week as well?

[19:55:54] Sacha_: actually it is already FO in the constitution :P

[19:56:07] Sacha_: We can move it to next week

[19:56:11] Sacha_: for the beginning of the meeting

[19:56:22] Sacha_: it is not extremely pressing as elections are still a bit off

[19:56:46] Bosun: I think we need to table. Can the langiage be hashed out on list?

[19:57:16] Sacha_: I think we can hash it out in the USPP meeting on tuesday

[19:57:20] teamcoltra: I think we are all a bit fried after 2 hours.

[19:57:20] Sacha_: and not spam people's emails

[19:57:26] Sacha_: we have the meeting for a reason

[19:57:29] teamcoltra: I think a bit of both wont hurt

[19:57:44] kusanagi: 2 hours is short for us lmao

[19:57:44] teamcoltra: Another row in your inbox isn't going to kill anyone either

[19:57:52] Sacha_: I guess I just do not like the list but feel free to do as you wish :P

[19:57:57] kusanagi: Sacha_, it's a social

[19:58:08] teamcoltra: Anyway I need a motion to table this until next week

[19:58:24] teamcoltra: and then a motion to adjourn after that

[19:58:37] Bosun: But Wisconsin's Paul Ryan is speaking at the RNC now ?.

[19:58:41] mildbeard: move to table it until next week

[19:58:47] teamcoltra: Seconds?

[19:58:53] MrSquared: second

[19:58:57] Bosun: second

[19:59:01] teamcoltra: in favour?

[19:59:08] mildbeard: aye

[19:59:09] Bosun: aye

[19:59:24] MrSquared: aye

[19:59:31] teamcoltra: OyajiVyse

[19:59:34] teamcoltra: Bosun

[19:59:38] OyajiVyse: aye

[19:59:41] teamcoltra: sorry Bosun

[19:59:49] teamcoltra: called the vote

[19:59:59] Deamon: aye

[20:00:06] Sacha_: 4 for

[20:00:25] teamcoltra: And a motion to adjourn?

[20:00:35] mildbeard: I move to adjourn the meeting.

[20:00:44] Bosun: move to adjourn

[20:00:47] MrSquared: i second

[20:00:50] Bosun: second

[20:00:54] teamcoltra: favour?

[20:00:55] mildbeard: third

[20:00:59] mildbeard: aye

[20:01:01] Bosun: aye

[20:01:03] OyajiVyse: aye

[20:01:05] MrSquared: aye

[20:01:07] Deamon: aye

[20:01:15] teamcoltra: vote called

[20:01:17] teamcoltra: good night guys

PNC 8/29/12

2012-08-30T06:18:33Z

Kusanagi: /* Minutes */ Cleaned up the formatting.

=:'''Agenda PNC MEETING'''
::'''--- 08/29/2012 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/29/12

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*Attending
**Kyle Devore, OR
**Zacqary Adam Green/Daniel Gorski, NY
**Erik Zoltan, MA
**Bradley Hall, FL
**Joseph T. Klein, WI
**Mitch Tuck, GA

*Excused
**None

*Unexcused
**California
**Washington

*Probation
**Oklahoma, 7th week

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====
*Benjamin Sauerhaft Coplon, PA
*Nicholas De Salvio, MD
*Caleb Langeslag, MN
*Cullen Matthews, IL

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====
*Travis McCrea, Washington, Captain
*Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, First Mate
*Amanda Johnson, MI, Acting Quartermaster as requested by Jeff Talada

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting opened at: 09:06pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting closed at: 11:01pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting chaired by Travis McCrea
*Secretary for this meeting is Amanda Johnson
*Quorum is established: Members 6 out of 8 present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/22/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===
====4.1 - Short report of the board members ====

=====Massachusetts=====
*Tabling at the freedom Rally
*Moving beyond Alpha testing for Liquid Feedback
*Still looking for a new treasurer

=====Washington=====
*Absent

=====Oregon=====
*Attempting to reach out to people on facebook

=====Georgia====
*No update

=====Florida=====
*getting essays for NSH2

=====New York=====
*Building a platform specific to NY.
*Building membership
*Are in talks with the Green Party of Bronx County about working together on a potential project.

=====California=====
*Absent

=====Wisconsin=====
*Taking a look at their demographics, the demographic is largely millenials
*Desiging a pamphlet for events

==== 4.2 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====
*Working on a voting system for elections

=====Bylaws Committee=====
*Still working on the proposal

=====Convention Committee=====
*Planning on it being web based

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===

*Who is the PNC endorsing for POTUS?
**We will leave this up to the states

*State of AGPPP
**They are working with MI, CA, and IL

=== - AOB - ===
*A suggested amendment to the PNC constitution Article IV Section Two: Eligibility
**Issue tabled for next week

*Motion to adjourn meeting
**4 ayes, Meeting adjourned

*PiratePAC and UC - SKIPPED

*Should PNC provide voter tools? Online voter registration? Polling place lookup? Candidate info? -SKIPPED

*Next meeting: Wednesday, September 6 at 9PM EDT
*Meeting closed: 11:01pm

Log:
[18:02:48] teamcoltra: Hello everyone

[18:02:57] kusanagi: sup

[18:02:58] MrSquared: greetings!

[18:03:07] teamcoltra: Sacha are you here?

[18:03:08] Sacha: Hiya

[18:03:13] teamcoltra: as if on queue

[18:03:20] Deamon: cue*

[18:03:26] teamcoltra: and on cue

[18:03:30] Deamon: sorry, drama nerd

[18:03:38] teamcoltra: She could have been in a line

[18:03:46] teamcoltra: which would have made her on queue as well :)

[18:03:53] Sacha: I am totally in a line

[18:04:03] �Kos� (~Knowledge@q-80-710-157-614.hsd5.mi.comcast.net) joined the channel.

[18:04:04] Deamon: you are definately a politican :P

[18:04:10] �Kos� (~Knowledge@q-80-710-157-614.hsd5.mi.comcast.net) left IRC. (Client Quit)

[18:04:12] �passstab� (~emily@xx.pirate) joined the channel.

[18:04:21] teamcoltra: It's 17:04 EST I call the meeting to order

[18:04:26] Zacqary: Hay gize

[18:04:32] teamcoltra: Sacha is keeping the log

[18:04:36] teamcoltra: err minutes

[18:05:01] teamcoltra: Let's do roll call

[18:05:17] kusanagi: Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, FM

[18:05:18] Deamon: James Eastman Jr., Michigan

[18:05:38] CullenMatthews: Cullen Matthews, IL

[18:05:43] MrSquared: Kyle DeVore, OR

[18:05:44] passstab: kbenjamin sauerhaft coplon, PA

[18:05:49] Sacha: Amanda Johnson, Mi

[18:06:02] Zacqary: Zacqary Adam Green, NY

[18:06:30] teamcoltra: Is it Zacqary or kusanagi who will be representing NY?

[18:06:36] kusanagi: zac is

[18:06:39] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v Zacqary�

[18:06:43] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v MrSquared�

[18:07:14] �mildbeard� (webchat@hknv-28-026-620-99.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined the channel.

[18:07:18] teamcoltra: We are still short on quorum, though we have a lot of people here

[18:07:32] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v mildbeard�

[18:07:44] mildbeard: Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts

[18:07:54] teamcoltra: We need one more

[18:07:59] teamcoltra: Rush are you near your keyboard?

[18:08:21] CalebLangeslag: Caleb Langeslag, MN

[18:08:22] �Kos� (~Knowledge@q-80-710-157-614.hsd5.mi.comcast.net) joined the channel.

[18:10:16] teamcoltra: listens to the jeapordy theme song as we wait

[18:10:18] kusanagi: plays the jeopardy song

[18:10:20] kusanagi: LOL

[18:10:26] itspara: Nicholas De Salvio, MD

[18:10:34] kusanagi: that just happened.

[18:10:35] kusanagi: lol

[18:10:48] Deamon: simulthink

[18:10:58] kusanagi: get outz of mah brains

[18:11:00] Sacha: I am asking CA

[18:11:02] Sacha: if they are in

[18:11:07] teamcoltra: I was just calling Orion

[18:11:11] teamcoltra: err I am calling

[18:11:12] Sacha: so give it a second and i'll see if I can grab them

[18:11:16] Sacha: I am asking matt so go ahead

[18:11:31] teamcoltra: I am calling Georgia next

[18:11:35] �Bosun� (~Bosun@lnwkxuj.titania.net) joined the channel.

[18:11:53] Bosun: Sorry I'm late.

[18:12:00] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v Bosun�

[18:12:11] Sacha: passtab is your name kbenjamin or just benjamin?

[18:12:40] Rush: Aye, FL's here

[18:12:44] Rush: Bradley Hall, FL

[18:12:54] Bosun: Joseph T. Klein Wisconsin

[18:12:56] teamcoltra: matuck_ is coming too

[18:12:59] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v Rush�

[18:13:01] passstab: kbenjamin

[18:13:36] teamcoltra: Okay but perfect so we now have an acceptable number of people here

[18:13:52] teamcoltra: Please review tonights agenda and last weeks minutes https://pnc.piratenpad.de/PNC-8-29-12

[18:15:06] Zacqary: Looks gooood

[18:15:10] Deamon: Good

[18:15:14] kusanagi: yep

[18:15:45] mildbeard: looks fine here too

[18:15:56] teamcoltra: llol I guess I should open it myself

[18:16:01] MrSquared: looks fine

[18:16:10] Sacha: Teamcoltra will you identify as other officers did as well? So that I can grab the state

[18:16:11] matuck_: mitch tuck ga

[18:16:19] Rush: Fine

[18:16:43] teamcoltra: Sacha I don't represent a state

[18:17:01] Sacha: Teamcoltra You are not part of any state?

[18:17:13] teamcoltra: I am a member of the Washington Pirate Party

[18:17:17] teamcoltra: but I don't represent them

[18:17:24] Sacha: Okay, that is what I was asking

[18:17:42] Sacha: Liz is not representing NY but it is still on the log, thank you for helping me out ^_^

[18:17:57] kusanagi: Force of habit, soz

[18:18:36] teamcoltra: Actually, not to sound rude, but for the record you are not an officer of the PNC.

[18:19:04] teamcoltra: Okay

[18:19:08] Sacha: Kusanagi, no I approve since the whole point of identifying is so people know where you are from and who you are

[18:19:24] Sacha: Das okay, it didn't make sense to put me in at large so I just made a new category for me

[18:19:38] Sacha: Sorry for all ze interruptions

[18:19:50] teamcoltra: I actually disagree, we have no bylaw requiring a state from the officers. However, I am willing to just go with the flow so we can carry on.

[18:20:13] Sacha: Okay

[18:20:28] teamcoltra: mildbeard can you give Massachusetts report?

[18:21:07] mildbeard: Our big upcoming event is the "Freedom Rally" which is a cannabis legalization rally. We have a nice vendor
table and it's a big opportunity for MAPP.

[18:21:28] mildbeard: Our liquid feedback testing is at a stage where we're going to move beyond the alpha testing part.

[18:21:54] mildbeard: We are still looking for a new treasurer. Our main people are a bit overtasked.

[18:22:01] mildbeard: And that's all for Massachusetts.

[18:22:05] teamcoltra: Sweet

[18:22:06] teamcoltra: Thanks

[18:22:15] teamcoltra: Washington isn't here

[18:22:20] teamcoltra: Oregon / MrSquared

[18:22:43] teamcoltra: (ps matuck_ if you are around, you will be up next)

[18:23:06] MrSquared: I've been working on and off on getting a facebook page up. It is currently up, but there is no content or
likes

[18:23:08] MrSquared: https://www.facebook.com/oregonpp

[18:23:12] �itspara� (webchat@s-85-726-668-82.hsd2.md.comcast.net) left IRC. (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)

[18:23:46] MrSquared: Also, I am attempting to reach out to the people in our FB group (almost 350 of them) to organize a meeting
on G+ Hangouts

[18:23:52] teamcoltra: lol you were not kidding, you didn't even like the page yourself ;)

[18:24:03] MrSquared: but so far it's just me and Jorden

[18:24:16] MrSquared: haha whoops

[18:24:23] �itspara� (~AndChat64@69.255.xyx.lw) joined the channel.

[18:24:35] MrSquared: and that is it

[18:24:42] teamcoltra: Well progress is progress

[18:24:55] teamcoltra: matuck_ are you around?

[18:25:01] matuck_: I havnt talked to jarod in a week or so ... I dont really have an update for GA

[18:25:10] teamcoltra: :) No problem

[18:25:13] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v MrSquared�

[18:25:20] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v matuck_�

[18:25:36] teamcoltra: Florida / Rush

[18:26:04] Rush: Florida is doing well. We just started getting essays for NSH2. I haven't been able to read through them yet, but
they look good.

[18:26:08] Rush: That is all

[18:27:13] teamcoltra: Thanks rush

[18:27:33] teamcoltra: You and your members all handled the storms well?

[18:27:58] Rush: Most of Florida didn't get much of it

[18:28:11] Rush: Where I am, we got like, 20 minutes of rain per day

[18:28:24] Rush: but it's fits and sprts

[18:28:26] Rush: spurts

[18:28:37] teamcoltra: :) That's thankful. Better than overflowing levvys

[18:28:42] teamcoltra: okay New York / Zacqary

[18:29:40] Zacqary: We've been gaining membership and are going to be experimenting with G+ hangout meetings.

[18:29:59] Zacqary: And coming up this week, we'll be working on building a platform relevant to New York.

[18:30:12] Zacqary: Possibly focusing on economic issues.

[18:30:35] Zacqary: The Bronx County Green Party has contacted us about working together on activist projects.

[18:30:41] Zacqary: Nothing concrete yet, but we're talking to them.

[18:31:04] Zacqary: Oh, and we just got an official social media guy.

[18:31:10] Zacqary: I think that's it.

[18:31:15] kusanagi: Well, not offical juuuuuust yet

[18:31:24] kusanagi: but tomorrow, he should be

[18:31:29] kusanagi: that's all. sorry :3

[18:31:41] teamcoltra: kk

[18:31:49] teamcoltra: Thanks New York

[18:31:53] teamcoltra: and California isn't here

[18:31:58] teamcoltra: so Bosun from Wisconson

[18:32:03] teamcoltra: Wisconsin*

[18:32:12] Bosun: The organizing team has been discussing demographic trends looking at this: http://pewresearch.org/millennials/
We skew heavy on FB toward Millennials - which is probably natural. Francis (our treasurer and best spokesman) is moving to Madison tomorrow, he expects to work on a UW student organization and organize in Madison in his spare time.

[18:33:40] Bosun: We are desighning a pamphlet for events. that is all.

[18:35:43] teamcoltra: Thanks Bosun

[18:36:06] teamcoltra: matuck_ or anyone working on IT do we have any updates?

[18:36:25] kusanagi: CalebLangeslag, ping

[18:37:08] matuck_: i will let CalebLangeslag chime in here

[18:37:11] CalebLangeslag: Nothing I can think of. I had a very decent idea for electronic voting, but having documented the idea
yet (and perhaps wouldn't have the manpower alone to implement it)

[18:37:25] CalebLangeslag: haven't documented*

[18:37:47] CalebLangeslag: Since the OpenSSL API is a beastly beast, last I recall

[18:38:22] CalebLangeslag: EOF

[18:38:28] kusanagi: heh

[18:38:32] teamcoltra: Do you need any help with it? Do you want people to email you? Should we put a call out on Facebook/Twitter
to help you with anything?

[18:38:36] Bosun: I am playing with the drupal voting modual.

[18:39:33] CalebLangeslag: Well, it would be nice to get people active in #uspp-it, so that we can pursue any reasonable projects
that are brought up; and especially for opinions/feedback on certain project ideas.

[18:40:29] CalebLangeslag: and I'm talking of an actual voting system in which it would be anonymous, yet registered on record for each person, and where people can verify the vote count themselves, or validate that their vote was submitted

[18:40:33] teamcoltra: CalebLangeslag but for a person who doesn't care to get involved with the overall team but wants to help you with a project is this something you want a call out for? or do you want to wait until you actually have a gameplan?

[18:41:28] CalebLangeslag: Well, I would like to get it implemented; I just need to freaking draw it up (as I've been lazy to do), and we could certainly go into implementation as long as there are no conceptual flaws with it

[18:41:49] teamcoltra: Well then I will let you keep working on it, shoot me a message if you ever need help :)

[18:41:50] CalebLangeslag: Because I believe it's absolutely possible

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[18:42:04] teamcoltra: Anything else?

[18:42:10] CalebLangeslag: and if we can pull it off, we'll probably have the most badass voting system there is. :P

[18:42:12] CalebLangeslag: Not much else.

[18:42:38] �kusanagi� (~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) joined the channel.

[18:42:38] �ChanServ� sets mode �+o kusanagi�

[18:43:13] teamcoltra: Okay Sacha have you decided against brining up your amendment discussion?

[18:43:22] teamcoltra: (I only ask because we are moving onto bylaws committee report next)

[18:44:21] Sacha: I decided not to bring up that one

[18:44:28] teamcoltra: Okay then bylaws committee Zacqary

[18:46:16] Zacqary: Not much to report. We've still been working on the bylaws.

[18:46:36] Zacqary: Not sure I can give an ETA but we'll try and get them ready to present soon.

[18:46:40] teamcoltra: kk

[18:46:51] teamcoltra: Convention Committtee

[18:46:55] teamcoltra: who did we put in charge of that?

[18:47:14] mildbeard: Bosun?

[18:47:21] kusanagi: yes

[18:47:35] Bosun: We had a meeting on Thursday. I am on a different computer and have misplaced the URL to the notes.

[18:48:02] teamcoltra: How convenient ;)

[18:48:05] teamcoltra: (jk of course)

[18:48:23] teamcoltra: Do you have a summary of what was discussed?

[18:48:23] Bosun: We will meet again at the same time thursday at 8pm on irc #usahcc

[18:49:11] Deamon: I can give it

[18:49:34] Bosun: Please.

[18:49:58] Deamon: We were discussing ways to do a convention quickly due to the small time constraint laid out in last weeks
meeting and we came up with a few

[18:50:34] Bosun: Voting issues came up.

[18:50:49] Bosun: Credentials.

[18:50:51] Deamon: We were thinking of having it be a web-based convention, hosted on a single site which would direct people to
meetings created by members throughout a 2 or 3 day period

[18:51:08] Deamon: Issue meetings, state meetings etc.

[18:51:48] Deamon: Have it be more focused on getting people in and talking to our current members to get more people into state
parties and maybe help form more in states were not currently running in

[18:52:00] teamcoltra: I have comments on these,as I am sure others will as well - I just want to pre-emptively ask that no one
provide feedback here, and attend their meeting if you have input

[18:52:12] Deamon: We welcome all comers

[18:52:23] Deamon: if thats a word

[18:52:33] teamcoltra: All words were made up at some point

[18:52:55] Deamon: If anyone from IT is here we are definately going to need help with the voting system

[18:53:01] Deamon: and thats all I got

[18:53:06] teamcoltra: Sweet, thanks Deamon

[18:53:08] teamcoltra: and Bosun

[18:53:14] teamcoltra: Agenda Items

[18:53:30] teamcoltra: First up PNC endorsement, whose agenda item was this?

[18:53:37] teamcoltra: Looks like NY?

[18:54:26] kusanagi: On request of Rush

[18:54:37] Rush: what

[18:54:44] teamcoltra: Okay well does Rush or NY want to speak first on the item

[18:54:50] Rush: what item

[18:54:52] kusanagi: sure

[18:55:01] teamcoltra: Endorsing a POTUS candidate

[18:55:16] Rush: Oh right

[18:55:20] kusanagi: We've been fielding a few questions from supporters about endorsing a ticket

[18:55:34] Rush: Some people on the Facebook accounts have asked who the party is endorsing for President

[18:55:39] Rush: among other positions

[18:55:43] kusanagi: and on IRC as well

[18:57:09] teamcoltra: Were there suggestions on who to endorse?

[18:57:17] kusanagi: No

[18:57:25] Rush: Jill Stein

[18:57:29] kusanagi: at least not from those asking

[18:57:38] teamcoltra: I meant in the channel

[18:57:49] kusanagi: oh

[18:57:52] kusanagi: >.>

[18:58:25] mildbeard: as long as it's not Romney...

[18:58:38] teamcoltra: I /cannot/ vote for someone who blatantly violates civil liberties. Our current president has had more civil
liberties abuses than his predecessor, and the Democrats were the last hold outs on both SOPA and PIPA. He approves the assassination of US citizens without trial... and has not only not fulfilled his promise to shut down gitmo, had signed the legislation to increase it's power to send US citizens there as well. I cannot vote for the

[18:58:38] teamcoltra: incumbent, and would not be able to put my support behind him

[18:58:49] Bosun: We endorse "not Romney"

[18:59:05] kusanagi: Bosun, lol

[18:59:05] Rush: lol

[18:59:13] teamcoltra: Honestly I support Bosun's idea

[18:59:26] Zacqary: But also not Obama?

[18:59:41] CalebLangeslag: highfives teamcoltra and mildbeard

[18:59:43] teamcoltra: I love the idea of supporting the Greens, but we need to distance ourselves from them, and show that we are
not a rehash of the Green Party (something they will start using against us once we become popular)

[18:59:44] Rush: Not Robomney

[18:59:49] CalebLangeslag: Perfect

[19:00:17] Bosun: I have the same problem with Obama as stated above. Even if I end up voting for him rather than Romney.

[19:00:17] CalebLangeslag: I was worried there, when I saw that agenda item before the meeting, of what the result would be. xP

[19:00:25] teamcoltra: In Canada they already say "there is no reason to vote Pirate, when you can vote Green" which is a lie, but
it would be worse here if we start endorsing their candidates

[19:01:02] mildbeard: At this early stage in our development, it won't help a candidate much for us to endorse them. But it may
hurt us.

[19:01:12] teamcoltra: mildbeard I agree with you

[19:01:30] kusanagi: yeah

[19:01:36] MrSquared: What about Libertarian?

[19:01:37] Deamon: thoughts on Gary Johnson of the Libertarians?

[19:01:43] MrSquared: lol

[19:01:45] Bosun: Please, no endorsment. We can ask that other candidate formally sighn on to our major platform point and we will list who complies.

[19:01:47] Rush: I haven't heard much of him

[19:01:59] Rush: that's an idea

[19:02:05] teamcoltra: If a non-democrat democrat was running (like Sanders or Kucinich) I would be willing to endorse them

[19:02:21] mildbeard: In Massachusetts we've benn contacted by a Libertarian candidate who explicitly endorses Pirate Party policies. That's a special case though.

[19:02:27] itspara: I like johnson

[19:02:35] MrSquared: i do as well

[19:02:51] Deamon: Johnson is very supportive of Net Nuetrality, its the other issue we may come to blows on

[19:02:52] itspara: But stein is also good

[19:02:53] CalebLangeslag: I would have no problems with Johnson at all

[19:02:55] teamcoltra: I would be nervous endorsing a libertarian as well, because we do promote a lot of government programs too

[19:03:00] Bosun: Sanders is an Independent and a card carring Socialist.

[19:03:02] Deamon: yeah

[19:03:19] Zacqary: My problem with Johnson is that he waves legalizing pot in everyone's faces to make them forget about the fact that his economic policies make no sernse.

[19:03:21] Zacqary: *sense

[19:03:23] teamcoltra: our commitment to humanism requires (at least in my mind) basic healthcare for people and stuff

[19:03:51] Rush: Guys, I need to flee, I have early day of stuff tomorrow. I'll read logs tomorrow

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[19:04:14] CalebLangeslag: Just not the current implementation in the US, correct?

[19:04:25] Deamon: Definately

[19:04:33] teamcoltra: Obamacare is a joke, what we need is a nationalized health insurance plan

[19:04:42] kusanagi: it's a step though

[19:04:50] teamcoltra: It was pandering

[19:05:00] kusanagi: I know, but it's still a step.

[19:05:01] Bosun: The dems left want single payer.

[19:05:18] Zacqary: Hey, mildbeard, how's Romneycare working out in MA?

[19:05:25] Zacqary: Does it actually work?

[19:05:34] mildbeard: The battle between the Dems and Reps is just a smokescreen to cover up the fact that they're both owned by
the corporations.

[19:05:34] teamcoltra: Let's not get off track?

[19:05:40] Bosun: I have a service related problem and get VA healthcare. It works for me.

[19:05:58] teamcoltra: Does anyone want to make a motion to support any candidate?

[19:06:01] teamcoltra: if not we should move on

[19:06:15] mildbeard: We should leave this to the state parties, I think.

[19:06:36] Bosun: I propose we support "Not Romney"

[19:06:46] teamcoltra: any seconds?

[19:07:24] Bosun: OK leave it up to the states.

[19:07:36] teamcoltra: Okay lets move on

[19:07:40] teamcoltra: State of AGP3

[19:07:53] teamcoltra: since California isn't here, I would like to speak on this first unless there is an objection?

[19:08:35] teamcoltra: Okay so I am going to be talking with Karl on Skype about AGP3 soon

[19:09:17] teamcoltra: And I will be in Germany in about 20 days to formalize everything and to discuss the future of our parties
in person.

[19:09:46] teamcoltra: Germany wants to focus on one state (California) and try to help them get going as a party

[19:09:54] teamcoltra: then use that success to help other states out

[19:10:06] teamcoltra: Instead of trying to blanket support everyone and just getting burned out

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[19:10:14] teamcoltra: Any questions comments or concerns

[19:10:52] kusanagi: well, it appears that other states are getting help now

[19:11:15] kusanagi: there has been no mention of this, save for one meeting, untill i asked today what was going on in the
facebook group

[19:11:54] teamcoltra: it was said in previous meetings as well

[19:12:17] kusanagi: i just said that

[19:12:31] kusanagi: as far as i knew, only mipp got flyers or something

[19:12:33] teamcoltra: You just said there was no mention of it, I am saying there has been

[19:12:42] kusanagi: travis.

[19:12:53] Deamon: Amanda, did you get them? I have heard nothing on it

[19:12:57] kusanagi: she did

[19:13:05] Sacha: What, one second

[19:13:17] kusanagi: i just said that only 1 meeting has had a mention of this.

[19:13:58] teamcoltra: The status hasn't changed, there was no need to make another update on something that hasn't changed

[19:13:58] Sacha: Karl said that he wants to talk to Mi, NY and the PNC

[19:14:09] Sacha: not just california, but that he will offer help to california

[19:14:20] Sacha: Also Deamon you know about this, he was in a meeting to help us remember

[19:14:26] Sacha: and he sent us stickers and flyers, I told you about that

[19:14:34] Sacha: I told the whole PNC about the stickers and flyers

[19:14:47] kusanagi: teamcoltra, well I wasn't aware, and I wanted a formal record of it.

[19:14:52] kusanagi: It's been some time.

[19:15:16] Sacha: As far as I am concerned there is no reason to discuss what MiPP and AGPPP are talking about in the PNC

[19:15:22] Sacha: whatever help they offer and we accept is up to us

[19:15:30] Sacha: as a state party we have that autonomy

[19:15:34] teamcoltra: Yes, but the focus will be California (or a single state) to get them going. They might help all the
parties. However, there will be a big drive to help California reach their signature requirement. Maybe a second state, but the agreement that was made so far is that we don't want to strech the support too thin

[19:15:52] Sacha: and when we gave our report about what we'd been up to, we would mention it along with everything else we have been up to

[19:15:55] kusanagi: IL has been a focus too.

[19:16:02] kusanagi: or, from what i understand

[19:16:13] Sacha: Then I guess IL is a focus as well

[19:16:24] kusanagi: shouldn't all states be getting that help?

[19:16:26] Sacha: I am just not quite sure why the PNC needs to be involved in state business

[19:16:27] teamcoltra: There is a difference between getting support, and being the focus. Which is what I am trying to say.

[19:16:32] teamcoltra: No, kusanagi, they shouldn't be.

[19:16:33] Sacha: If Travis wants to talk to Karl he can

[19:16:42] kusanagi: Ok, that's fine

[19:16:47] Sacha: If you want to talk to Karl, Kusanagi go ahead

[19:16:52] kusanagi: already am.

[19:17:05] Sacha: I do not see why it needs to be an agenda point unless the PNC as the PNC does something with AGPPP

[19:17:25] teamcoltra: If we can get successful in one state, then we can get the media attention which can help other parties get the members needed to start in their state.

[19:17:41] teamcoltra: Also we can learn what is working and what is not... and then share that information.

[19:17:50] kusanagi: okay, that's good.

[19:17:58] Sacha: TeamColtra Very true and how Karl wants to help out in the long term to the party overall would be best discussed with you, not the PNC

[19:18:04] teamcoltra: I am discussing in depth side-by-side support. There would not be enough resources to help all the states like that

[19:18:13] Sacha: if a state wants help they can contact you to contact him or contact Karl

[19:18:15] kusanagi: guys

[19:18:27] kusanagi: Would CullenMatthews be allowed to speak on the matter,seeing as he's from IL?

[19:18:45] teamcoltra: CullenMatthews do you have information about AGP3?

[19:18:50] teamcoltra: that hasn't been shared?

[19:18:54] CullenMatthews: yes

[19:18:57] teamcoltra: Go ahead

[19:20:07] CullenMatthews: Karl has contacted me about forming an ILPP but however we are still trying to recruit new members. also he asked me about coming up with a ILPP constiution so he can publish it on the AGP3 webpage which is still in a rough draft phase

[19:22:02] teamcoltra: Was that all?

[19:22:11] CullenMatthews: as far as im aware yes

[19:22:38] teamcoltra: Okay was there anything else we need to discuss on the state of AGP3?

[19:22:54] kusanagi: No, I just wanted an update. this was sufficient.

[19:23:20] teamcoltra: A suggested amendment to the PNC constitution Article IV Section Two: Eligibility

[19:23:22] Sacha: I have a real quick question if that is okay?

[19:23:28] teamcoltra: yeah go ahead Sacha

[19:24:00] Sacha: Nevermind it is a needlessly combative comment I just decided

[19:24:09] teamcoltra: Okay so A suggested amendment to the PNC constitution Article IV Section Two: Eligibility

[19:24:12] teamcoltra: whose was this?

[19:24:17] Sacha: Me

[19:24:21] teamcoltra: go ahead

[19:24:32] Zacqary: Guys, I need to leave. Sorry. My alt might be able to show up for the rest of the meeting if needed. See you

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[19:25:13] Sacha: Okay so my suggested amendment has to do with the constitution

[19:25:30] kusanagi: as opposed to.. lol

[19:25:43] Sacha: Article IV section 2, eligibility of officers

[19:25:49] Sacha: the constitution reads

[19:26:03] teamcoltra: retract the claws kusanagi

[19:26:05] Sacha: "Section 2: Eligibility To be eligible to hold one of the positions set forth in Art. IV §1, a candidate must be
an active member of a Pirate Party based in a Member State of the PNC. To be eligible to hold the position of Captain set forth in Art. IV §1.1, a candidate must not be a Representative of a Member State, or must abdicate the role of Representative upon election as Captain."

[19:26:10] Sacha: My problem is with number 1

[19:26:34] Sacha: is that it is too restrictive

[19:26:40] mildbeard: I completely agree, that needs to be changed.

[19:26:46] Sacha: I remember that we discussed this in the committee

[19:26:50] Sacha: and did not want it in

[19:26:52] OyajiVyse: Daniel Gorski, NY rep

[19:26:58] Sacha: but I think we were pressured by time and forgot

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[19:27:21] teamcoltra: I remember it being discussed and removed, to be honest.

[19:27:33] Sacha: As do I

[19:27:34] teamcoltra: but I didn't participate much, so I could be wrong

[19:27:39] Sacha: yet somehow it is in the final copy

[19:27:47] kusanagi: I don't recall that.. does anyone else?

[19:27:52] Sacha: Yes

[19:28:01] Sacha: it was in the comment section of the google doc

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[19:28:06] Sacha: you were not there

[19:28:12] kusanagi: I would have seen t.

[19:28:18] teamcoltra: moving along...

[19:28:20] kusanagi: i did read it in the process.

[19:28:28] mildbeard: We changed that section but this was the last thing that we didn't change. It was even more restrictive
before.

[19:28:46] teamcoltra: It doesn't matter if it was or wasn't removed or how it happened, it just matters that it is there now

[19:29:24] mildbeard: It would be nice if we had a constitutional amendment as a first agenda item when we have more states
present.

[19:29:38] mildbeard: otherwise I'd say we should go right ahead and vote on it.

[19:29:51] teamcoltra: we are still above quorum

[19:29:54] Sacha: What i would like to suggest is that a member state moves to remove it

[19:30:30] teamcoltra: Actually we only lost Florida

[19:30:48] mildbeard: Can someone repeat the language of item 1?

[19:31:00] teamcoltra: Current or amended?

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[19:31:29] mildbeard: Sorry I didn't realize there was amended language.

[19:31:34] mildbeard: What is it amended to?

[19:32:08] teamcoltra: lol I don't think there was any, but I thought you might have thought you missed it

[19:32:26] teamcoltra: §1.1, a candidate must not be a Representative of a Member State, or must abdicate the role of
Representative upon election as Captain."

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[19:33:01] teamcoltra: err

[19:33:04] Sacha_: We can always wait until next week

[19:33:07] Sacha_: as there is no time issue

[19:33:20] teamcoltra: Section 2: Eligibility To be eligible to hold one of the positions set forth in Art. IV §1, a candidate must
be an active member of a Pirate Party based in a Member State of the PNC. To be eligible to hold the position of Captain set forth in Art. IV §1.1, a candidate must not be a Representative of a Member State, or must abdicate the role of Representative upon election as Captain.

[19:33:20] mildbeard: What does the entire section look like if we just strike that item 1.1?

[19:33:28] teamcoltra: 1.1 isn't the problem

[19:33:36] teamcoltra: it's hte a candidate must be an active member of a Pirate Party based in a Member State of the PNC.

[19:33:41] mildbeard: aha

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[19:34:00] mildbeard: How about strike the whole thing?

[19:34:14] teamcoltra: The problem is a very real one too... while technically I am a member of the Washington Pirate Party, it really is a loose technicality

[19:34:28] Sacha_: I agree with Mildbeard

[19:34:42] Bosun: I'm confused can sacha state how it would be proposed to read?

[19:34:43] teamcoltra: I like 1.1 though

[19:34:46] Sacha_: Well I think the second one is needed

[19:34:52] Sacha_: Travis

[19:34:56] teamcoltra: if you are elected you can't also be the representative of your state

[19:35:13] Bosun: Yes agreed

[19:35:20] Sacha_: 2.1 says that a person needs to be part of a member state

[19:35:23] Sacha_: why do you agree with that one

[19:35:26] mildbeard: So it would be changed to read as follows.

[19:36:02] Sacha_: I would expand the second one to include all officers of the PNC, we do not need conflicts of interest. you can
be an alt but not the main rep

[19:36:11] mildbeard: Section2: Eligibility. To be eligible to hold the position of caption set forth in Article IV section1.1, a candidate must not be a representative of a member state, or must abdicate the role of representative upon election as Captain.

[19:36:32] kusanagi: No, you shouldn't be a rep at all if elected, especially for Captain.

[19:37:04] kusanagi: either alt or main rep, no

[19:37:04] Bosun: /Captain/s/Officer/

[19:37:08] kusanagi: yes

[19:37:11] Sacha_: Mildbeard I think we should change it to be officer rather than just captain

[19:37:15] mildbeard: That was in the previous version and I objected to it.

[19:37:17] Sacha_: Kusanagi I disagree with the second

[19:37:27] Sacha_: some states do not have enough members to do so

[19:37:40] Sacha_: Being an alt is fine as the alt is rarely used

[19:37:52] kusanagi: we have 2 alts right now.

[19:37:54] Sacha_: and they simply will not act as their position in that case

[19:38:13] Sacha_: like you did with first mate and being rep for NY when Zac couldn't make it

[19:39:03] teamcoltra: It seems silly to allow them to be the official alt, if they cannot actually fulfill the position of alt

[19:39:10] kusanagi: teamcoltra, exactly

[19:39:24] Bosun: /a representative/s/a primary representative/

[19:39:28] kusanagi: Sacha_, that was because we usually can't pull someone up

[19:39:29] Sacha_: TeamColtra why can they not do that?

[19:39:40] kusanagi: that's a last resort, really

[19:39:42] Sacha_: If they need to be an alt

[19:39:51] Sacha_: then they act as alt

[19:39:54] teamcoltra: Because you can't run a meeting and be a representative.

[19:40:19] Sacha_: and we have a procedure in the bylaws for if an officer cannot make it

[19:40:22] Sacha_: so that goes into effect

[19:40:27] Bosun: clearly it would be a conflict of interest.

[19:40:43] Sacha_: Bosun No it wouldn't

[19:40:49] kusanagi: yes, it could be

[19:40:49] Sacha_: they would not be acting as an officer

[19:40:56] Sacha_: in the rare case that they act as an alt

[19:41:02] Sacha_: Alts are rarely called on

[19:41:05] kusanagi: um

[19:41:07] kusanagi: no

[19:41:14] kusanagi: it happens quite often

[19:41:22] Sacha_: Not that I have seen

[19:41:25] kusanagi: isn't there even an alt from MIPP here?

[19:41:41] kusanagi: I usually sub in for zac, matuck_ subbing for jarod right now

[19:41:51] Sacha_: kusanagi No, there is a rep

[19:41:52] Deamon: I guess technically I am the alt

[19:41:59] Sacha_: No you are a full rep

[19:42:01] Sacha_: not an alt

[19:42:16] Brendan: just have it such that both positions can be held by the same person, but not during the same meeting

[19:42:22] Sacha_: We are switching between people as our alt, remember

[19:42:22] teamcoltra: In PPI it's generally frowned upon if a PPI board member also acts as a countries representative... because
other countries feel uncomfortable approaching them with concerns about the board

[19:42:33] Brendan: so if the captain is the alt, and the main person from that can't turn up, they either 1) find another alt or
2) have another USPP board member chair the meeting

[19:42:39] Sacha_: Brendan That is what I was saying, I completely agree with you there

[19:42:58] Sacha_: Brendan In the bylaws proposal we have a procedure for no. 2 outlined, so we could use that

[19:43:09] teamcoltra: Like when I was both PPI Board and PPCA's PPI liason, another state wanted to file a complaint against the
PPI Board, so he wanted to talk to Canada, but couldn't because I was on the board and it would be a conflict of interest

[19:43:18] Sacha_: Alt = rep in my switching comment

[19:43:22] teamcoltra: Even if they knew I would be fair, it's the perception amongst other people

[19:43:32] teamcoltra: I would have to choose between my country and the PPI board

[19:43:38] Sacha_: Teamcoltra that is because you were both at the same time

[19:43:46] Sacha_: To me it is the same as saying Kusanagi cannot be an officer

[19:43:47] Mozart: teamcoltra: Greg and Lola are both the International Officers for their respective countries.

[19:43:50] Sacha_: because she is from new york

[19:43:57] Sacha_: and in NYPP

[19:44:01] Sacha_: so she will have a conflict of interest

[19:44:07] kusanagi: no

[19:44:08] mildbeard: OK so we're saying no requirement for any officer to live in a member state, and no officer can also be or act as the state rep. Is that the consensus?

[19:44:10] Brendan: Mozart: which is probably a good counterexample to what Sacha_ wants haha

[19:44:12] teamcoltra: Mozart I don't usually use Greg and Lola as my examples of what should be done.

[19:44:13] Sacha_: if you are not acting as both in the same meeting, then there will be no conflict of interest

[19:44:15] Bosun: How about an officer cannot be a primary representative nor may the captain be either a primary or alternate of
a member state

[19:44:29] kusanagi: mildbeard, i would prefer to see there be a requirement for an officer to be from a member state

[19:44:39] kusanagi: otherwise, why even join the pnc?

[19:44:54] kusanagi: the only thing one couldn't do is make or second a motion

[19:44:55] teamcoltra: To vote, to speak

[19:44:56] mildbeard: kusanagi, a full member state?

[19:45:00] Sacha_: Kusanagi Not all states are full members or can be yet

[19:45:01] kusanagi: yes

[19:45:05] Sacha_: We are extremely young

[19:45:05] mildbeard: I disagree.

[19:45:16] Sacha_: Why would we limit the opportunities like that

[19:45:22] teamcoltra: lol there are a lot of advantages of being a full member other than getting to field PNC candidates

[19:45:25] Sacha_: we only have what... 8 full member states?

[19:45:39] kusanagi: yes. 9 if we could somehow pull marcus back

[19:45:48] mildbeard: We don't want to restrict who we can recruit as an officer, and we're making it very hard for states to put
forward candidates. We're going to wind up with a very small pool of people who can act as officers. We want the best we can get.

[19:45:53] Sacha_: Kusanagi So 8

[19:46:05] Bosun: How about allowing affiliates to members states for people from unorganized or unrecognized states?

[19:46:06] kusanagi: Sacha_, yes, i just agreed.

[19:46:12] Sacha_: only 8 people can be candidates from the beginning

[19:46:16] kusanagi: no

[19:46:18] kusanagi: not 8

[19:46:23] kusanagi: but members of those parties

[19:46:29] Sacha_: and then to say that they have at least 3 people in those states be active enough

[19:46:33] kusanagi: that's how i interpretted it

[19:46:40] Sacha_: and availabe enough to make PNC meetings

[19:46:47] teamcoltra: Okay how about a compromise: A full member state has to approve the nomination of the candidate, but they can approve the nomination of as many candidates as they wish

[19:46:48] Sacha_: is nuts

[19:46:53] matuck_: got to bounce guys

[19:46:59] teamcoltra: take care mildbeard

[19:46:59] teamcoltra: err

[19:47:00] teamcoltra: matuck_

[19:47:12] Sacha_: You only have 8 pools to collect people from

[19:47:16] kusanagi: good night, matuck_

[19:47:29] Sacha_: night matuck_

[19:47:45] mildbeard: you can exclude Mass - we don't have anyone with the bandwidth who can make that kind of time commitment in
addition to having a PNC rep.

[19:47:47] teamcoltra: So let's say I run, mildbeard can say "Travis, I might not agree with everything you have done -- but I approve you running for officer"

[19:47:55] Sacha_: Michigan would be out

[19:48:01] Sacha_: Washington would be out

[19:48:04] Sacha_: Florida would be out

[19:48:21] Sacha_: I believe Wi would be out as I have only seen two reps

[19:48:25] kusanagi: FL wouldn't be out. they could post it

[19:48:26] teamcoltra: That way it weeds out people who came out of no where

[19:48:41] Sacha_: Kusanagi no, you have to have a stated alt

[19:48:45] Sacha_: so rush could not be an alt

[19:48:50] Sacha_: and his alt would have to be main

[19:48:56] Sacha_: so you would need another person to agree to be out

[19:48:58] kusanagi: no, they could do what NY has done

[19:49:03] Sacha_: i am not even sure if fl has an official alt

[19:49:23] kusanagi: ask to see if anyone is interested in the PNC alt/rep or Officer position

[19:49:23] Sacha_: Kusanagi NY has you as an alt

[19:49:30] kusanagi: No

[19:49:34] Sacha_: Non-issue

[19:49:34] kusanagi: OyajiVyse is.

[19:49:39] OyajiVyse: waves

[19:49:41] Sacha_: let's get back on track

[19:49:46] kusanagi: lol

[19:49:51] Sacha_: So Mass would be out

[19:49:58] Sacha_: Washington would be out

[19:50:04] Sacha_: Georgia would be out

[19:50:22] Sacha_: Oregon would be out I am pretty sure

[19:50:28] Sacha_: I think wisconsin would be out

[19:50:39] Sacha_: So I see New York, California and Florida maybe

[19:50:58] Bosun: No I have people.

[19:50:58] Sacha_: So with those qualifications that is our pool of people to get officers from

[19:51:05] teamcoltra: Here are my two compromises - I now agree that as long as our captain does not represent a state, the FM can... however, if they ever get ascended to CpN they have to give up other roles of course. A person can be from anywhere, but their nomination has to be approved by a member state

[19:51:36] kusanagi: teamcoltra, that's reasonable.

[19:51:38] teamcoltra: The member state approval isn't a big deal, because if you can't find one member state to approve your
nomination, you were not going to win anyway

[19:51:43] Bosun: I like the comprimise.

[19:51:48] Sacha_: Teamcoltra FM and Qm

[19:52:01] teamcoltra: Sacha_ yes

[19:52:08] mildbeard: Isn't it FO?

[19:52:16] Sacha_: Teamcoltra I like the compromise

[19:52:31] teamcoltra: ;) it's why they elected me Captain

[19:52:38] Bosun: Yeah what she said.

[19:52:47] teamcoltra: mildbeard - First Mate

[19:52:52] teamcoltra: Quartermaster

[19:52:58] mildbeard: Not First Officer?

[19:53:05] teamcoltra: I don't think so, unless we changed the name

[19:53:09] Sacha_: Mildbeard I know that was a suggestion but I cannot recall if we agreed to change it because as I recall the
disagreement was based on the idea that it is weird to call a woman a firstmate

[19:53:11] mildbeard: ok np

[19:53:16] kusanagi: i think it was, now that it's been mentioned

[19:53:22] kusanagi: Sacha_, I CAN CONFIRM THE WEIRD

[19:53:23] kusanagi: lol

[19:53:36] mildbeard: right

[19:53:44] kusanagi: :P

[19:53:58] Sacha_: One second

[19:54:00] Sacha_: I can look it up

[19:54:01] teamcoltra: Okay so does anyone want to formulate that into a motion

[19:54:02] Bosun: If we have language, Wisconsin will so move.

[19:54:57] OyajiVyse: why do we need universal inclusion anyway?

[19:54:57] mildbeard: Guys I have to drop in the next 4 min.

[19:55:04] teamcoltra: Then after this motion, I owuld ask that we adjourn

[19:55:07] Sacha_: We agreed to change it to first officer

[19:55:09] teamcoltra: and carry the next to items ot next week

[19:55:18] Sacha_: so i'll go through the bylaws and the constitution while I am at it and change it

[19:55:24] kusanagi: don't have a pool otherwise

[19:55:43] teamcoltra: Or do we want to move this to next week as well?

[19:55:54] Sacha_: actually it is already FO in the constitution :P

[19:56:07] Sacha_: We can move it to next week

[19:56:11] Sacha_: for the beginning of the meeting

[19:56:22] Sacha_: it is not extremely pressing as elections are still a bit off

[19:56:46] Bosun: I think we need to table. Can the langiage be hashed out on list?

[19:57:16] Sacha_: I think we can hash it out in the USPP meeting on tuesday

[19:57:20] teamcoltra: I think we are all a bit fried after 2 hours.

[19:57:20] Sacha_: and not spam people's emails

[19:57:26] Sacha_: we have the meeting for a reason

[19:57:29] teamcoltra: I think a bit of both wont hurt

[19:57:44] kusanagi: 2 hours is short for us lmao

[19:57:44] teamcoltra: Another row in your inbox isn't going to kill anyone either

[19:57:52] Sacha_: I guess I just do not like the list but feel free to do as you wish :P

[19:57:57] kusanagi: Sacha_, it's a social

[19:58:08] teamcoltra: Anyway I need a motion to table this until next week

[19:58:24] teamcoltra: and then a motion to adjourn after that

[19:58:37] Bosun: But Wisconsin's Paul Ryan is speaking at the RNC now ?.

[19:58:41] mildbeard: move to table it until next week

[19:58:47] teamcoltra: Seconds?

[19:58:53] MrSquared: second

[19:58:57] Bosun: second

[19:59:01] teamcoltra: in favour?

[19:59:08] mildbeard: aye

[19:59:09] Bosun: aye

[19:59:24] MrSquared: aye

[19:59:31] teamcoltra: OyajiVyse

[19:59:34] teamcoltra: Bosun

[19:59:38] OyajiVyse: aye

[19:59:41] teamcoltra: sorry Bosun

[19:59:49] teamcoltra: called the vote

[19:59:59] Deamon: aye

[20:00:06] Sacha_: 4 for

[20:00:25] teamcoltra: And a motion to adjourn?

[20:00:35] mildbeard: I move to adjourn the meeting.

[20:00:44] Bosun: move to adjourn

[20:00:47] MrSquared: i second

[20:00:50] Bosun: second

[20:00:54] teamcoltra: favour?

[20:00:55] mildbeard: third

[20:00:59] mildbeard: aye

[20:01:01] Bosun: aye

[20:01:03] OyajiVyse: aye

[20:01:05] MrSquared: aye

[20:01:07] Deamon: aye

[20:01:15] teamcoltra: vote called

[20:01:17] teamcoltra: good night guys

PNC 8/29/12

2012-08-30T06:13:08Z

Kusanagi: and done.

=:'''Agenda PNC MEETING'''
::'''--- 08/29/2012 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/29/12

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*Attending
Kyle Devore, OR
Zacqary Adam Green/Daniel Gorski, NY
Erik Zoltan, MA
Bradley Hall, FL
Joseph T. Klein, WI
Mitch Tuck, GA

*Excused

*Unexcused
California
Washington

*Probation
Oklahoma, 7th week

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====
Benjamin Sauerhaft Coplon, PA
Nicholas De Salvio, MD
Caleb Langeslag, MN
Cullen Matthews, IL

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====
Travis McCrea, Washington
Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY

Acting Quartermaster
Amanda Johnson, Michigan

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting opened at: 09:06pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting closed at: 11:00pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting chaired by Travis McCrea
*Secretary for this meeting is Amanda Johnson
*Quorum is established: Members 6 out of 8 present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/22/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===
====4.1 - Short report of the board members ====

=====Massachusetts=====
Tabling at the freedom Rally
Moving beyond Alpha testing for Liquid Feedback
Still looking for a new treasurer

=====Washington=====
*Absent

=====Oregon=====
Attempting to reach out to people on facebook

=====Georgia====
No update

=====Florida=====
Doing well, getting essays for NSH2

=====New York=====
Building a platform specific to NY. They acquired a social media person, and are in talks with the Green Party of Bronx County about working together on a potential project.

=====California=====
*Absent

=====Wisconsin=====
Taking a look at their demographics, the demographic is largely millenials
Desiging a pamphlet for events

==== 4.2 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====
Working on a voting system for elections

=====Bylaws Committee=====
Still working on the proposal

=====Convention Committee=====
Planning on it being web based

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===

Who is the PNC endorsing for POTUS?
We will leave this up to the states

State of AGPPP
They are working with MI, CA, and IL

=== - AOB - ===
A suggested amendment to the PNC constitution Article IV Section Two: Eligibility
Issue tabled for next week

PiratePAC and UC

Should PNC provide voter tools? Online voter registration? Polling place lookup? Candidate info?

Motion to adjourn meeting
4 ayes

*Next meeting: Wednesday, September 6 at 9PM EDT
*Meeting closed: 11:00 pm

Log:
[18:02:48] teamcoltra: Hello everyone

[18:02:57] kusanagi: sup

[18:02:58] MrSquared: greetings!

[18:03:07] teamcoltra: Sacha are you here?

[18:03:08] Sacha: Hiya

[18:03:13] teamcoltra: as if on queue

[18:03:20] Deamon: cue*

[18:03:26] teamcoltra: and on cue

[18:03:30] Deamon: sorry, drama nerd

[18:03:38] teamcoltra: She could have been in a line

[18:03:46] teamcoltra: which would have made her on queue as well :)

[18:03:53] Sacha: I am totally in a line

[18:04:03] �Kos� (~Knowledge@q-80-710-157-614.hsd5.mi.comcast.net) joined the channel.

[18:04:04] Deamon: you are definately a politican :P

[18:04:10] �Kos� (~Knowledge@q-80-710-157-614.hsd5.mi.comcast.net) left IRC. (Client Quit)

[18:04:12] �passstab� (~emily@xx.pirate) joined the channel.

[18:04:21] teamcoltra: It's 17:04 EST I call the meeting to order

[18:04:26] Zacqary: Hay gize

[18:04:32] teamcoltra: Sacha is keeping the log

[18:04:36] teamcoltra: err minutes

[18:05:01] teamcoltra: Let's do roll call

[18:05:17] kusanagi: Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, FM

[18:05:18] Deamon: James Eastman Jr., Michigan

[18:05:38] CullenMatthews: Cullen Matthews, IL

[18:05:43] MrSquared: Kyle DeVore, OR

[18:05:44] passstab: kbenjamin sauerhaft coplon, PA

[18:05:49] Sacha: Amanda Johnson, Mi

[18:06:02] Zacqary: Zacqary Adam Green, NY

[18:06:30] teamcoltra: Is it Zacqary or kusanagi who will be representing NY?

[18:06:36] kusanagi: zac is

[18:06:39] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v Zacqary�

[18:06:43] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v MrSquared�

[18:07:14] �mildbeard� (webchat@hknv-28-026-620-99.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined the channel.

[18:07:18] teamcoltra: We are still short on quorum, though we have a lot of people here

[18:07:32] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v mildbeard�

[18:07:44] mildbeard: Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts

[18:07:54] teamcoltra: We need one more

[18:07:59] teamcoltra: Rush are you near your keyboard?

[18:08:21] CalebLangeslag: Caleb Langeslag, MN

[18:08:22] �Kos� (~Knowledge@q-80-710-157-614.hsd5.mi.comcast.net) joined the channel.

[18:10:16] teamcoltra: listens to the jeapordy theme song as we wait

[18:10:18] kusanagi: plays the jeopardy song

[18:10:20] kusanagi: LOL

[18:10:26] itspara: Nicholas De Salvio, MD

[18:10:34] kusanagi: that just happened.

[18:10:35] kusanagi: lol

[18:10:48] Deamon: simulthink

[18:10:58] kusanagi: get outz of mah brains

[18:11:00] Sacha: I am asking CA

[18:11:02] Sacha: if they are in

[18:11:07] teamcoltra: I was just calling Orion

[18:11:11] teamcoltra: err I am calling

[18:11:12] Sacha: so give it a second and i'll see if I can grab them

[18:11:16] Sacha: I am asking matt so go ahead

[18:11:31] teamcoltra: I am calling Georgia next

[18:11:35] �Bosun� (~Bosun@lnwkxuj.titania.net) joined the channel.

[18:11:53] Bosun: Sorry I'm late.

[18:12:00] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v Bosun�

[18:12:11] Sacha: passtab is your name kbenjamin or just benjamin?

[18:12:40] Rush: Aye, FL's here

[18:12:44] Rush: Bradley Hall, FL

[18:12:54] Bosun: Joseph T. Klein Wisconsin

[18:12:56] teamcoltra: matuck_ is coming too

[18:12:59] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v Rush�

[18:13:01] passstab: kbenjamin

[18:13:36] teamcoltra: Okay but perfect so we now have an acceptable number of people here

[18:13:52] teamcoltra: Please review tonights agenda and last weeks minutes https://pnc.piratenpad.de/PNC-8-29-12

[18:15:06] Zacqary: Looks gooood

[18:15:10] Deamon: Good

[18:15:14] kusanagi: yep

[18:15:45] mildbeard: looks fine here too

[18:15:56] teamcoltra: llol I guess I should open it myself

[18:16:01] MrSquared: looks fine

[18:16:10] Sacha: Teamcoltra will you identify as other officers did as well? So that I can grab the state

[18:16:11] matuck_: mitch tuck ga

[18:16:19] Rush: Fine

[18:16:43] teamcoltra: Sacha I don't represent a state

[18:17:01] Sacha: Teamcoltra You are not part of any state?

[18:17:13] teamcoltra: I am a member of the Washington Pirate Party

[18:17:17] teamcoltra: but I don't represent them

[18:17:24] Sacha: Okay, that is what I was asking

[18:17:42] Sacha: Liz is not representing NY but it is still on the log, thank you for helping me out ^_^

[18:17:57] kusanagi: Force of habit, soz

[18:18:36] teamcoltra: Actually, not to sound rude, but for the record you are not an officer of the PNC.

[18:19:04] teamcoltra: Okay

[18:19:08] Sacha: Kusanagi, no I approve since the whole point of identifying is so people know where you are from and who you are

[18:19:24] Sacha: Das okay, it didn't make sense to put me in at large so I just made a new category for me

[18:19:38] Sacha: Sorry for all ze interruptions

[18:19:50] teamcoltra: I actually disagree, we have no bylaw requiring a state from the officers. However, I am willing to just go with the flow so we can carry on.

[18:20:13] Sacha: Okay

[18:20:28] teamcoltra: mildbeard can you give Massachusetts report?

[18:21:07] mildbeard: Our big upcoming event is the "Freedom Rally" which is a cannabis legalization rally. We have a nice vendor
table and it's a big opportunity for MAPP.

[18:21:28] mildbeard: Our liquid feedback testing is at a stage where we're going to move beyond the alpha testing part.

[18:21:54] mildbeard: We are still looking for a new treasurer. Our main people are a bit overtasked.

[18:22:01] mildbeard: And that's all for Massachusetts.

[18:22:05] teamcoltra: Sweet

[18:22:06] teamcoltra: Thanks

[18:22:15] teamcoltra: Washington isn't here

[18:22:20] teamcoltra: Oregon / MrSquared

[18:22:43] teamcoltra: (ps matuck_ if you are around, you will be up next)

[18:23:06] MrSquared: I've been working on and off on getting a facebook page up. It is currently up, but there is no content or
likes

[18:23:08] MrSquared: https://www.facebook.com/oregonpp

[18:23:12] �itspara� (webchat@s-85-726-668-82.hsd2.md.comcast.net) left IRC. (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)

[18:23:46] MrSquared: Also, I am attempting to reach out to the people in our FB group (almost 350 of them) to organize a meeting
on G+ Hangouts

[18:23:52] teamcoltra: lol you were not kidding, you didn't even like the page yourself ;)

[18:24:03] MrSquared: but so far it's just me and Jorden

[18:24:16] MrSquared: haha whoops

[18:24:23] �itspara� (~AndChat64@69.255.xyx.lw) joined the channel.

[18:24:35] MrSquared: and that is it

[18:24:42] teamcoltra: Well progress is progress

[18:24:55] teamcoltra: matuck_ are you around?

[18:25:01] matuck_: I havnt talked to jarod in a week or so ... I dont really have an update for GA

[18:25:10] teamcoltra: :) No problem

[18:25:13] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v MrSquared�

[18:25:20] �teamcoltra� sets mode �+v matuck_�

[18:25:36] teamcoltra: Florida / Rush

[18:26:04] Rush: Florida is doing well. We just started getting essays for NSH2. I haven't been able to read through them yet, but
they look good.

[18:26:08] Rush: That is all

[18:27:13] teamcoltra: Thanks rush

[18:27:33] teamcoltra: You and your members all handled the storms well?

[18:27:58] Rush: Most of Florida didn't get much of it

[18:28:11] Rush: Where I am, we got like, 20 minutes of rain per day

[18:28:24] Rush: but it's fits and sprts

[18:28:26] Rush: spurts

[18:28:37] teamcoltra: :) That's thankful. Better than overflowing levvys

[18:28:42] teamcoltra: okay New York / Zacqary

[18:29:40] Zacqary: We've been gaining membership and are going to be experimenting with G+ hangout meetings.

[18:29:59] Zacqary: And coming up this week, we'll be working on building a platform relevant to New York.

[18:30:12] Zacqary: Possibly focusing on economic issues.

[18:30:35] Zacqary: The Bronx County Green Party has contacted us about working together on activist projects.

[18:30:41] Zacqary: Nothing concrete yet, but we're talking to them.

[18:31:04] Zacqary: Oh, and we just got an official social media guy.

[18:31:10] Zacqary: I think that's it.

[18:31:15] kusanagi: Well, not offical juuuuuust yet

[18:31:24] kusanagi: but tomorrow, he should be

[18:31:29] kusanagi: that's all. sorry :3

[18:31:41] teamcoltra: kk

[18:31:49] teamcoltra: Thanks New York

[18:31:53] teamcoltra: and California isn't here

[18:31:58] teamcoltra: so Bosun from Wisconson

[18:32:03] teamcoltra: Wisconsin*

[18:32:12] Bosun: The organizing team has been discussing demographic trends looking at this: http://pewresearch.org/millennials/
We skew heavy on FB toward Millennials - which is probably natural. Francis (our treasurer and best spokesman) is moving to Madison tomorrow, he expects to work on a UW student organization and organize in Madison in his spare time.

[18:33:40] Bosun: We are desighning a pamphlet for events. that is all.

[18:35:43] teamcoltra: Thanks Bosun

[18:36:06] teamcoltra: matuck_ or anyone working on IT do we have any updates?

[18:36:25] kusanagi: CalebLangeslag, ping

[18:37:08] matuck_: i will let CalebLangeslag chime in here

[18:37:11] CalebLangeslag: Nothing I can think of. I had a very decent idea for electronic voting, but having documented the idea
yet (and perhaps wouldn't have the manpower alone to implement it)

[18:37:25] CalebLangeslag: haven't documented*

[18:37:47] CalebLangeslag: Since the OpenSSL API is a beastly beast, last I recall

[18:38:22] CalebLangeslag: EOF

[18:38:28] kusanagi: heh

[18:38:32] teamcoltra: Do you need any help with it? Do you want people to email you? Should we put a call out on Facebook/Twitter
to help you with anything?

[18:38:36] Bosun: I am playing with the drupal voting modual.

[18:39:33] CalebLangeslag: Well, it would be nice to get people active in #uspp-it, so that we can pursue any reasonable projects
that are brought up; and especially for opinions/feedback on certain project ideas.

[18:40:29] CalebLangeslag: and I'm talking of an actual voting system in which it would be anonymous, yet registered on record for each person, and where people can verify the vote count themselves, or validate that their vote was submitted

[18:40:33] teamcoltra: CalebLangeslag but for a person who doesn't care to get involved with the overall team but wants to help you with a project is this something you want a call out for? or do you want to wait until you actually have a gameplan?

[18:41:28] CalebLangeslag: Well, I would like to get it implemented; I just need to freaking draw it up (as I've been lazy to do), and we could certainly go into implementation as long as there are no conceptual flaws with it

[18:41:49] teamcoltra: Well then I will let you keep working on it, shoot me a message if you ever need help :)

[18:41:50] CalebLangeslag: Because I believe it's absolutely possible

[18:42:03] �kusanagi� (~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) left IRC. (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

[18:42:04] teamcoltra: Anything else?

[18:42:10] CalebLangeslag: and if we can pull it off, we'll probably have the most badass voting system there is. :P

[18:42:12] CalebLangeslag: Not much else.

[18:42:38] �kusanagi� (~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) joined the channel.

[18:42:38] �ChanServ� sets mode �+o kusanagi�

[18:43:13] teamcoltra: Okay Sacha have you decided against brining up your amendment discussion?

[18:43:22] teamcoltra: (I only ask because we are moving onto bylaws committee report next)

[18:44:21] Sacha: I decided not to bring up that one

[18:44:28] teamcoltra: Okay then bylaws committee Zacqary

[18:46:16] Zacqary: Not much to report. We've still been working on the bylaws.

[18:46:36] Zacqary: Not sure I can give an ETA but we'll try and get them ready to present soon.

[18:46:40] teamcoltra: kk

[18:46:51] teamcoltra: Convention Committtee

[18:46:55] teamcoltra: who did we put in charge of that?

[18:47:14] mildbeard: Bosun?

[18:47:21] kusanagi: yes

[18:47:35] Bosun: We had a meeting on Thursday. I am on a different computer and have misplaced the URL to the notes.

[18:48:02] teamcoltra: How convenient ;)

[18:48:05] teamcoltra: (jk of course)

[18:48:23] teamcoltra: Do you have a summary of what was discussed?

[18:48:23] Bosun: We will meet again at the same time thursday at 8pm on irc #usahcc

[18:49:11] Deamon: I can give it

[18:49:34] Bosun: Please.

[18:49:58] Deamon: We were discussing ways to do a convention quickly due to the small time constraint laid out in last weeks
meeting and we came up with a few

[18:50:34] Bosun: Voting issues came up.

[18:50:49] Bosun: Credentials.

[18:50:51] Deamon: We were thinking of having it be a web-based convention, hosted on a single site which would direct people to
meetings created by members throughout a 2 or 3 day period

[18:51:08] Deamon: Issue meetings, state meetings etc.

[18:51:48] Deamon: Have it be more focused on getting people in and talking to our current members to get more people into state
parties and maybe help form more in states were not currently running in

[18:52:00] teamcoltra: I have comments on these,as I am sure others will as well - I just want to pre-emptively ask that no one
provide feedback here, and attend their meeting if you have input

[18:52:12] Deamon: We welcome all comers

[18:52:23] Deamon: if thats a word

[18:52:33] teamcoltra: All words were made up at some point

[18:52:55] Deamon: If anyone from IT is here we are definately going to need help with the voting system

[18:53:01] Deamon: and thats all I got

[18:53:06] teamcoltra: Sweet, thanks Deamon

[18:53:08] teamcoltra: and Bosun

[18:53:14] teamcoltra: Agenda Items

[18:53:30] teamcoltra: First up PNC endorsement, whose agenda item was this?

[18:53:37] teamcoltra: Looks like NY?

[18:54:26] kusanagi: On request of Rush

[18:54:37] Rush: what

[18:54:44] teamcoltra: Okay well does Rush or NY want to speak first on the item

[18:54:50] Rush: what item

[18:54:52] kusanagi: sure

[18:55:01] teamcoltra: Endorsing a POTUS candidate

[18:55:16] Rush: Oh right

[18:55:20] kusanagi: We've been fielding a few questions from supporters about endorsing a ticket

[18:55:34] Rush: Some people on the Facebook accounts have asked who the party is endorsing for President

[18:55:39] Rush: among other positions

[18:55:43] kusanagi: and on IRC as well

[18:57:09] teamcoltra: Were there suggestions on who to endorse?

[18:57:17] kusanagi: No

[18:57:25] Rush: Jill Stein

[18:57:29] kusanagi: at least not from those asking

[18:57:38] teamcoltra: I meant in the channel

[18:57:49] kusanagi: oh

[18:57:52] kusanagi: >.>

[18:58:25] mildbeard: as long as it's not Romney...

[18:58:38] teamcoltra: I /cannot/ vote for someone who blatantly violates civil liberties. Our current president has had more civil
liberties abuses than his predecessor, and the Democrats were the last hold outs on both SOPA and PIPA. He approves the assassination of US citizens without trial... and has not only not fulfilled his promise to shut down gitmo, had signed the legislation to increase it's power to send US citizens there as well. I cannot vote for the

[18:58:38] teamcoltra: incumbent, and would not be able to put my support behind him

[18:58:49] Bosun: We endorse "not Romney"

[18:59:05] kusanagi: Bosun, lol

[18:59:05] Rush: lol

[18:59:13] teamcoltra: Honestly I support Bosun's idea

[18:59:26] Zacqary: But also not Obama?

[18:59:41] CalebLangeslag: highfives teamcoltra and mildbeard

[18:59:43] teamcoltra: I love the idea of supporting the Greens, but we need to distance ourselves from them, and show that we are
not a rehash of the Green Party (something they will start using against us once we become popular)

[18:59:44] Rush: Not Robomney

[18:59:49] CalebLangeslag: Perfect

[19:00:17] Bosun: I have the same problem with Obama as stated above. Even if I end up voting for him rather than Romney.

[19:00:17] CalebLangeslag: I was worried there, when I saw that agenda item before the meeting, of what the result would be. xP

[19:00:25] teamcoltra: In Canada they already say "there is no reason to vote Pirate, when you can vote Green" which is a lie, but
it would be worse here if we start endorsing their candidates

[19:01:02] mildbeard: At this early stage in our development, it won't help a candidate much for us to endorse them. But it may
hurt us.

[19:01:12] teamcoltra: mildbeard I agree with you

[19:01:30] kusanagi: yeah

[19:01:36] MrSquared: What about Libertarian?

[19:01:37] Deamon: thoughts on Gary Johnson of the Libertarians?

[19:01:43] MrSquared: lol

[19:01:45] Bosun: Please, no endorsment. We can ask that other candidate formally sighn on to our major platform point and we will list who complies.

[19:01:47] Rush: I haven't heard much of him

[19:01:59] Rush: that's an idea

[19:02:05] teamcoltra: If a non-democrat democrat was running (like Sanders or Kucinich) I would be willing to endorse them

[19:02:21] mildbeard: In Massachusetts we've benn contacted by a Libertarian candidate who explicitly endorses Pirate Party policies. That's a special case though.

[19:02:27] itspara: I like johnson

[19:02:35] MrSquared: i do as well

[19:02:51] Deamon: Johnson is very supportive of Net Nuetrality, its the other issue we may come to blows on

[19:02:52] itspara: But stein is also good

[19:02:53] CalebLangeslag: I would have no problems with Johnson at all

[19:02:55] teamcoltra: I would be nervous endorsing a libertarian as well, because we do promote a lot of government programs too

[19:03:00] Bosun: Sanders is an Independent and a card carring Socialist.

[19:03:02] Deamon: yeah

[19:03:19] Zacqary: My problem with Johnson is that he waves legalizing pot in everyone's faces to make them forget about the fact that his economic policies make no sernse.

[19:03:21] Zacqary: *sense

[19:03:23] teamcoltra: our commitment to humanism requires (at least in my mind) basic healthcare for people and stuff

[19:03:51] Rush: Guys, I need to flee, I have early day of stuff tomorrow. I'll read logs tomorrow

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[19:04:14] CalebLangeslag: Just not the current implementation in the US, correct?

[19:04:25] Deamon: Definately

[19:04:33] teamcoltra: Obamacare is a joke, what we need is a nationalized health insurance plan

[19:04:42] kusanagi: it's a step though

[19:04:50] teamcoltra: It was pandering

[19:05:00] kusanagi: I know, but it's still a step.

[19:05:01] Bosun: The dems left want single payer.

[19:05:18] Zacqary: Hey, mildbeard, how's Romneycare working out in MA?

[19:05:25] Zacqary: Does it actually work?

[19:05:34] mildbeard: The battle between the Dems and Reps is just a smokescreen to cover up the fact that they're both owned by
the corporations.

[19:05:34] teamcoltra: Let's not get off track?

[19:05:40] Bosun: I have a service related problem and get VA healthcare. It works for me.

[19:05:58] teamcoltra: Does anyone want to make a motion to support any candidate?

[19:06:01] teamcoltra: if not we should move on

[19:06:15] mildbeard: We should leave this to the state parties, I think.

[19:06:36] Bosun: I propose we support "Not Romney"

[19:06:46] teamcoltra: any seconds?

[19:07:24] Bosun: OK leave it up to the states.

[19:07:36] teamcoltra: Okay lets move on

[19:07:40] teamcoltra: State of AGP3

[19:07:53] teamcoltra: since California isn't here, I would like to speak on this first unless there is an objection?

[19:08:35] teamcoltra: Okay so I am going to be talking with Karl on Skype about AGP3 soon

[19:09:17] teamcoltra: And I will be in Germany in about 20 days to formalize everything and to discuss the future of our parties
in person.

[19:09:46] teamcoltra: Germany wants to focus on one state (California) and try to help them get going as a party

[19:09:54] teamcoltra: then use that success to help other states out

[19:10:06] teamcoltra: Instead of trying to blanket support everyone and just getting burned out

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[19:10:14] teamcoltra: Any questions comments or concerns

[19:10:52] kusanagi: well, it appears that other states are getting help now

[19:11:15] kusanagi: there has been no mention of this, save for one meeting, untill i asked today what was going on in the
facebook group

[19:11:54] teamcoltra: it was said in previous meetings as well

[19:12:17] kusanagi: i just said that

[19:12:31] kusanagi: as far as i knew, only mipp got flyers or something

[19:12:33] teamcoltra: You just said there was no mention of it, I am saying there has been

[19:12:42] kusanagi: travis.

[19:12:53] Deamon: Amanda, did you get them? I have heard nothing on it

[19:12:57] kusanagi: she did

[19:13:05] Sacha: What, one second

[19:13:17] kusanagi: i just said that only 1 meeting has had a mention of this.

[19:13:58] teamcoltra: The status hasn't changed, there was no need to make another update on something that hasn't changed

[19:13:58] Sacha: Karl said that he wants to talk to Mi, NY and the PNC

[19:14:09] Sacha: not just california, but that he will offer help to california

[19:14:20] Sacha: Also Deamon you know about this, he was in a meeting to help us remember

[19:14:26] Sacha: and he sent us stickers and flyers, I told you about that

[19:14:34] Sacha: I told the whole PNC about the stickers and flyers

[19:14:47] kusanagi: teamcoltra, well I wasn't aware, and I wanted a formal record of it.

[19:14:52] kusanagi: It's been some time.

[19:15:16] Sacha: As far as I am concerned there is no reason to discuss what MiPP and AGPPP are talking about in the PNC

[19:15:22] Sacha: whatever help they offer and we accept is up to us

[19:15:30] Sacha: as a state party we have that autonomy

[19:15:34] teamcoltra: Yes, but the focus will be California (or a single state) to get them going. They might help all the
parties. However, there will be a big drive to help California reach their signature requirement. Maybe a second state, but the agreement that was made so far is that we don't want to strech the support too thin

[19:15:52] Sacha: and when we gave our report about what we'd been up to, we would mention it along with everything else we have been up to

[19:15:55] kusanagi: IL has been a focus too.

[19:16:02] kusanagi: or, from what i understand

[19:16:13] Sacha: Then I guess IL is a focus as well

[19:16:24] kusanagi: shouldn't all states be getting that help?

[19:16:26] Sacha: I am just not quite sure why the PNC needs to be involved in state business

[19:16:27] teamcoltra: There is a difference between getting support, and being the focus. Which is what I am trying to say.

[19:16:32] teamcoltra: No, kusanagi, they shouldn't be.

[19:16:33] Sacha: If Travis wants to talk to Karl he can

[19:16:42] kusanagi: Ok, that's fine

[19:16:47] Sacha: If you want to talk to Karl, Kusanagi go ahead

[19:16:52] kusanagi: already am.

[19:17:05] Sacha: I do not see why it needs to be an agenda point unless the PNC as the PNC does something with AGPPP

[19:17:25] teamcoltra: If we can get successful in one state, then we can get the media attention which can help other parties get the members needed to start in their state.

[19:17:41] teamcoltra: Also we can learn what is working and what is not... and then share that information.

[19:17:50] kusanagi: okay, that's good.

[19:17:58] Sacha: TeamColtra Very true and how Karl wants to help out in the long term to the party overall would be best discussed with you, not the PNC

[19:18:04] teamcoltra: I am discussing in depth side-by-side support. There would not be enough resources to help all the states like that

[19:18:13] Sacha: if a state wants help they can contact you to contact him or contact Karl

[19:18:15] kusanagi: guys

[19:18:27] kusanagi: Would CullenMatthews be allowed to speak on the matter,seeing as he's from IL?

[19:18:45] teamcoltra: CullenMatthews do you have information about AGP3?

[19:18:50] teamcoltra: that hasn't been shared?

[19:18:54] CullenMatthews: yes

[19:18:57] teamcoltra: Go ahead

[19:20:07] CullenMatthews: Karl has contacted me about forming an ILPP but however we are still trying to recruit new members. also he asked me about coming up with a ILPP constiution so he can publish it on the AGP3 webpage which is still in a rough draft phase

[19:22:02] teamcoltra: Was that all?

[19:22:11] CullenMatthews: as far as im aware yes

[19:22:38] teamcoltra: Okay was there anything else we need to discuss on the state of AGP3?

[19:22:54] kusanagi: No, I just wanted an update. this was sufficient.

[19:23:20] teamcoltra: A suggested amendment to the PNC constitution Article IV Section Two: Eligibility

[19:23:22] Sacha: I have a real quick question if that is okay?

[19:23:28] teamcoltra: yeah go ahead Sacha

[19:24:00] Sacha: Nevermind it is a needlessly combative comment I just decided

[19:24:09] teamcoltra: Okay so A suggested amendment to the PNC constitution Article IV Section Two: Eligibility

[19:24:12] teamcoltra: whose was this?

[19:24:17] Sacha: Me

[19:24:21] teamcoltra: go ahead

[19:24:32] Zacqary: Guys, I need to leave. Sorry. My alt might be able to show up for the rest of the meeting if needed. See you

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[19:25:13] Sacha: Okay so my suggested amendment has to do with the constitution

[19:25:30] kusanagi: as opposed to.. lol

[19:25:43] Sacha: Article IV section 2, eligibility of officers

[19:25:49] Sacha: the constitution reads

[19:26:03] teamcoltra: retract the claws kusanagi

[19:26:05] Sacha: "Section 2: Eligibility To be eligible to hold one of the positions set forth in Art. IV §1, a candidate must be
an active member of a Pirate Party based in a Member State of the PNC. To be eligible to hold the position of Captain set forth in Art. IV §1.1, a candidate must not be a Representative of a Member State, or must abdicate the role of Representative upon election as Captain."

[19:26:10] Sacha: My problem is with number 1

[19:26:34] Sacha: is that it is too restrictive

[19:26:40] mildbeard: I completely agree, that needs to be changed.

[19:26:46] Sacha: I remember that we discussed this in the committee

[19:26:50] Sacha: and did not want it in

[19:26:52] OyajiVyse: Daniel Gorski, NY rep

[19:26:58] Sacha: but I think we were pressured by time and forgot

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[19:27:21] teamcoltra: I remember it being discussed and removed, to be honest.

[19:27:33] Sacha: As do I

[19:27:34] teamcoltra: but I didn't participate much, so I could be wrong

[19:27:39] Sacha: yet somehow it is in the final copy

[19:27:47] kusanagi: I don't recall that.. does anyone else?

[19:27:52] Sacha: Yes

[19:28:01] Sacha: it was in the comment section of the google doc

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[19:28:06] Sacha: you were not there

[19:28:12] kusanagi: I would have seen t.

[19:28:18] teamcoltra: moving along...

[19:28:20] kusanagi: i did read it in the process.

[19:28:28] mildbeard: We changed that section but this was the last thing that we didn't change. It was even more restrictive
before.

[19:28:46] teamcoltra: It doesn't matter if it was or wasn't removed or how it happened, it just matters that it is there now

[19:29:24] mildbeard: It would be nice if we had a constitutional amendment as a first agenda item when we have more states
present.

[19:29:38] mildbeard: otherwise I'd say we should go right ahead and vote on it.

[19:29:51] teamcoltra: we are still above quorum

[19:29:54] Sacha: What i would like to suggest is that a member state moves to remove it

[19:30:30] teamcoltra: Actually we only lost Florida

[19:30:48] mildbeard: Can someone repeat the language of item 1?

[19:31:00] teamcoltra: Current or amended?

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[19:31:29] mildbeard: Sorry I didn't realize there was amended language.

[19:31:34] mildbeard: What is it amended to?

[19:32:08] teamcoltra: lol I don't think there was any, but I thought you might have thought you missed it

[19:32:26] teamcoltra: §1.1, a candidate must not be a Representative of a Member State, or must abdicate the role of
Representative upon election as Captain."

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[19:33:01] teamcoltra: err

[19:33:04] Sacha_: We can always wait until next week

[19:33:07] Sacha_: as there is no time issue

[19:33:20] teamcoltra: Section 2: Eligibility To be eligible to hold one of the positions set forth in Art. IV §1, a candidate must
be an active member of a Pirate Party based in a Member State of the PNC. To be eligible to hold the position of Captain set forth in Art. IV §1.1, a candidate must not be a Representative of a Member State, or must abdicate the role of Representative upon election as Captain.

[19:33:20] mildbeard: What does the entire section look like if we just strike that item 1.1?

[19:33:28] teamcoltra: 1.1 isn't the problem

[19:33:36] teamcoltra: it's hte a candidate must be an active member of a Pirate Party based in a Member State of the PNC.

[19:33:41] mildbeard: aha

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[19:34:00] mildbeard: How about strike the whole thing?

[19:34:14] teamcoltra: The problem is a very real one too... while technically I am a member of the Washington Pirate Party, it really is a loose technicality

[19:34:28] Sacha_: I agree with Mildbeard

[19:34:42] Bosun: I'm confused can sacha state how it would be proposed to read?

[19:34:43] teamcoltra: I like 1.1 though

[19:34:46] Sacha_: Well I think the second one is needed

[19:34:52] Sacha_: Travis

[19:34:56] teamcoltra: if you are elected you can't also be the representative of your state

[19:35:13] Bosun: Yes agreed

[19:35:20] Sacha_: 2.1 says that a person needs to be part of a member state

[19:35:23] Sacha_: why do you agree with that one

[19:35:26] mildbeard: So it would be changed to read as follows.

[19:36:02] Sacha_: I would expand the second one to include all officers of the PNC, we do not need conflicts of interest. you can
be an alt but not the main rep

[19:36:11] mildbeard: Section2: Eligibility. To be eligible to hold the position of caption set forth in Article IV section1.1, a candidate must not be a representative of a member state, or must abdicate the role of representative upon election as Captain.

[19:36:32] kusanagi: No, you shouldn't be a rep at all if elected, especially for Captain.

[19:37:04] kusanagi: either alt or main rep, no

[19:37:04] Bosun: /Captain/s/Officer/

[19:37:08] kusanagi: yes

[19:37:11] Sacha_: Mildbeard I think we should change it to be officer rather than just captain

[19:37:15] mildbeard: That was in the previous version and I objected to it.

[19:37:17] Sacha_: Kusanagi I disagree with the second

[19:37:27] Sacha_: some states do not have enough members to do so

[19:37:40] Sacha_: Being an alt is fine as the alt is rarely used

[19:37:52] kusanagi: we have 2 alts right now.

[19:37:54] Sacha_: and they simply will not act as their position in that case

[19:38:13] Sacha_: like you did with first mate and being rep for NY when Zac couldn't make it

[19:39:03] teamcoltra: It seems silly to allow them to be the official alt, if they cannot actually fulfill the position of alt

[19:39:10] kusanagi: teamcoltra, exactly

[19:39:24] Bosun: /a representative/s/a primary representative/

[19:39:28] kusanagi: Sacha_, that was because we usually can't pull someone up

[19:39:29] Sacha_: TeamColtra why can they not do that?

[19:39:40] kusanagi: that's a last resort, really

[19:39:42] Sacha_: If they need to be an alt

[19:39:51] Sacha_: then they act as alt

[19:39:54] teamcoltra: Because you can't run a meeting and be a representative.

[19:40:19] Sacha_: and we have a procedure in the bylaws for if an officer cannot make it

[19:40:22] Sacha_: so that goes into effect

[19:40:27] Bosun: clearly it would be a conflict of interest.

[19:40:43] Sacha_: Bosun No it wouldn't

[19:40:49] kusanagi: yes, it could be

[19:40:49] Sacha_: they would not be acting as an officer

[19:40:56] Sacha_: in the rare case that they act as an alt

[19:41:02] Sacha_: Alts are rarely called on

[19:41:05] kusanagi: um

[19:41:07] kusanagi: no

[19:41:14] kusanagi: it happens quite often

[19:41:22] Sacha_: Not that I have seen

[19:41:25] kusanagi: isn't there even an alt from MIPP here?

[19:41:41] kusanagi: I usually sub in for zac, matuck_ subbing for jarod right now

[19:41:51] Sacha_: kusanagi No, there is a rep

[19:41:52] Deamon: I guess technically I am the alt

[19:41:59] Sacha_: No you are a full rep

[19:42:01] Sacha_: not an alt

[19:42:16] Brendan: just have it such that both positions can be held by the same person, but not during the same meeting

[19:42:22] Sacha_: We are switching between people as our alt, remember

[19:42:22] teamcoltra: In PPI it's generally frowned upon if a PPI board member also acts as a countries representative... because
other countries feel uncomfortable approaching them with concerns about the board

[19:42:33] Brendan: so if the captain is the alt, and the main person from that can't turn up, they either 1) find another alt or
2) have another USPP board member chair the meeting

[19:42:39] Sacha_: Brendan That is what I was saying, I completely agree with you there

[19:42:58] Sacha_: Brendan In the bylaws proposal we have a procedure for no. 2 outlined, so we could use that

[19:43:09] teamcoltra: Like when I was both PPI Board and PPCA's PPI liason, another state wanted to file a complaint against the
PPI Board, so he wanted to talk to Canada, but couldn't because I was on the board and it would be a conflict of interest

[19:43:18] Sacha_: Alt = rep in my switching comment

[19:43:22] teamcoltra: Even if they knew I would be fair, it's the perception amongst other people

[19:43:32] teamcoltra: I would have to choose between my country and the PPI board

[19:43:38] Sacha_: Teamcoltra that is because you were both at the same time

[19:43:46] Sacha_: To me it is the same as saying Kusanagi cannot be an officer

[19:43:47] Mozart: teamcoltra: Greg and Lola are both the International Officers for their respective countries.

[19:43:50] Sacha_: because she is from new york

[19:43:57] Sacha_: and in NYPP

[19:44:01] Sacha_: so she will have a conflict of interest

[19:44:07] kusanagi: no

[19:44:08] mildbeard: OK so we're saying no requirement for any officer to live in a member state, and no officer can also be or act as the state rep. Is that the consensus?

[19:44:10] Brendan: Mozart: which is probably a good counterexample to what Sacha_ wants haha

[19:44:12] teamcoltra: Mozart I don't usually use Greg and Lola as my examples of what should be done.

[19:44:13] Sacha_: if you are not acting as both in the same meeting, then there will be no conflict of interest

[19:44:15] Bosun: How about an officer cannot be a primary representative nor may the captain be either a primary or alternate of
a member state

[19:44:29] kusanagi: mildbeard, i would prefer to see there be a requirement for an officer to be from a member state

[19:44:39] kusanagi: otherwise, why even join the pnc?

[19:44:54] kusanagi: the only thing one couldn't do is make or second a motion

[19:44:55] teamcoltra: To vote, to speak

[19:44:56] mildbeard: kusanagi, a full member state?

[19:45:00] Sacha_: Kusanagi Not all states are full members or can be yet

[19:45:01] kusanagi: yes

[19:45:05] Sacha_: We are extremely young

[19:45:05] mildbeard: I disagree.

[19:45:16] Sacha_: Why would we limit the opportunities like that

[19:45:22] teamcoltra: lol there are a lot of advantages of being a full member other than getting to field PNC candidates

[19:45:25] Sacha_: we only have what... 8 full member states?

[19:45:39] kusanagi: yes. 9 if we could somehow pull marcus back

[19:45:48] mildbeard: We don't want to restrict who we can recruit as an officer, and we're making it very hard for states to put
forward candidates. We're going to wind up with a very small pool of people who can act as officers. We want the best we can get.

[19:45:53] Sacha_: Kusanagi So 8

[19:46:05] Bosun: How about allowing affiliates to members states for people from unorganized or unrecognized states?

[19:46:06] kusanagi: Sacha_, yes, i just agreed.

[19:46:12] Sacha_: only 8 people can be candidates from the beginning

[19:46:16] kusanagi: no

[19:46:18] kusanagi: not 8

[19:46:23] kusanagi: but members of those parties

[19:46:29] Sacha_: and then to say that they have at least 3 people in those states be active enough

[19:46:33] kusanagi: that's how i interpretted it

[19:46:40] Sacha_: and availabe enough to make PNC meetings

[19:46:47] teamcoltra: Okay how about a compromise: A full member state has to approve the nomination of the candidate, but they can approve the nomination of as many candidates as they wish

[19:46:48] Sacha_: is nuts

[19:46:53] matuck_: got to bounce guys

[19:46:59] teamcoltra: take care mildbeard

[19:46:59] teamcoltra: err

[19:47:00] teamcoltra: matuck_

[19:47:12] Sacha_: You only have 8 pools to collect people from

[19:47:16] kusanagi: good night, matuck_

[19:47:29] Sacha_: night matuck_

[19:47:45] mildbeard: you can exclude Mass - we don't have anyone with the bandwidth who can make that kind of time commitment in
addition to having a PNC rep.

[19:47:47] teamcoltra: So let's say I run, mildbeard can say "Travis, I might not agree with everything you have done -- but I approve you running for officer"

[19:47:55] Sacha_: Michigan would be out

[19:48:01] Sacha_: Washington would be out

[19:48:04] Sacha_: Florida would be out

[19:48:21] Sacha_: I believe Wi would be out as I have only seen two reps

[19:48:25] kusanagi: FL wouldn't be out. they could post it

[19:48:26] teamcoltra: That way it weeds out people who came out of no where

[19:48:41] Sacha_: Kusanagi no, you have to have a stated alt

[19:48:45] Sacha_: so rush could not be an alt

[19:48:50] Sacha_: and his alt would have to be main

[19:48:56] Sacha_: so you would need another person to agree to be out

[19:48:58] kusanagi: no, they could do what NY has done

[19:49:03] Sacha_: i am not even sure if fl has an official alt

[19:49:23] kusanagi: ask to see if anyone is interested in the PNC alt/rep or Officer position

[19:49:23] Sacha_: Kusanagi NY has you as an alt

[19:49:30] kusanagi: No

[19:49:34] Sacha_: Non-issue

[19:49:34] kusanagi: OyajiVyse is.

[19:49:39] OyajiVyse: waves

[19:49:41] Sacha_: let's get back on track

[19:49:46] kusanagi: lol

[19:49:51] Sacha_: So Mass would be out

[19:49:58] Sacha_: Washington would be out

[19:50:04] Sacha_: Georgia would be out

[19:50:22] Sacha_: Oregon would be out I am pretty sure

[19:50:28] Sacha_: I think wisconsin would be out

[19:50:39] Sacha_: So I see New York, California and Florida maybe

[19:50:58] Bosun: No I have people.

[19:50:58] Sacha_: So with those qualifications that is our pool of people to get officers from

[19:51:05] teamcoltra: Here are my two compromises - I now agree that as long as our captain does not represent a state, the FM can... however, if they ever get ascended to CpN they have to give up other roles of course. A person can be from anywhere, but their nomination has to be approved by a member state

[19:51:36] kusanagi: teamcoltra, that's reasonable.

[19:51:38] teamcoltra: The member state approval isn't a big deal, because if you can't find one member state to approve your
nomination, you were not going to win anyway

[19:51:43] Bosun: I like the comprimise.

[19:51:48] Sacha_: Teamcoltra FM and Qm

[19:52:01] teamcoltra: Sacha_ yes

[19:52:08] mildbeard: Isn't it FO?

[19:52:16] Sacha_: Teamcoltra I like the compromise

[19:52:31] teamcoltra: ;) it's why they elected me Captain

[19:52:38] Bosun: Yeah what she said.

[19:52:47] teamcoltra: mildbeard - First Mate

[19:52:52] teamcoltra: Quartermaster

[19:52:58] mildbeard: Not First Officer?

[19:53:05] teamcoltra: I don't think so, unless we changed the name

[19:53:09] Sacha_: Mildbeard I know that was a suggestion but I cannot recall if we agreed to change it because as I recall the
disagreement was based on the idea that it is weird to call a woman a firstmate

[19:53:11] mildbeard: ok np

[19:53:16] kusanagi: i think it was, now that it's been mentioned

[19:53:22] kusanagi: Sacha_, I CAN CONFIRM THE WEIRD

[19:53:23] kusanagi: lol

[19:53:36] mildbeard: right

[19:53:44] kusanagi: :P

[19:53:58] Sacha_: One second

[19:54:00] Sacha_: I can look it up

[19:54:01] teamcoltra: Okay so does anyone want to formulate that into a motion

[19:54:02] Bosun: If we have language, Wisconsin will so move.

[19:54:57] OyajiVyse: why do we need universal inclusion anyway?

[19:54:57] mildbeard: Guys I have to drop in the next 4 min.

[19:55:04] teamcoltra: Then after this motion, I owuld ask that we adjourn

[19:55:07] Sacha_: We agreed to change it to first officer

[19:55:09] teamcoltra: and carry the next to items ot next week

[19:55:18] Sacha_: so i'll go through the bylaws and the constitution while I am at it and change it

[19:55:24] kusanagi: don't have a pool otherwise

[19:55:43] teamcoltra: Or do we want to move this to next week as well?

[19:55:54] Sacha_: actually it is already FO in the constitution :P

[19:56:07] Sacha_: We can move it to next week

[19:56:11] Sacha_: for the beginning of the meeting

[19:56:22] Sacha_: it is not extremely pressing as elections are still a bit off

[19:56:46] Bosun: I think we need to table. Can the langiage be hashed out on list?

[19:57:16] Sacha_: I think we can hash it out in the USPP meeting on tuesday

[19:57:20] teamcoltra: I think we are all a bit fried after 2 hours.

[19:57:20] Sacha_: and not spam people's emails

[19:57:26] Sacha_: we have the meeting for a reason

[19:57:29] teamcoltra: I think a bit of both wont hurt

[19:57:44] kusanagi: 2 hours is short for us lmao

[19:57:44] teamcoltra: Another row in your inbox isn't going to kill anyone either

[19:57:52] Sacha_: I guess I just do not like the list but feel free to do as you wish :P

[19:57:57] kusanagi: Sacha_, it's a social

[19:58:08] teamcoltra: Anyway I need a motion to table this until next week

[19:58:24] teamcoltra: and then a motion to adjourn after that

[19:58:37] Bosun: But Wisconsin's Paul Ryan is speaking at the RNC now ?.

[19:58:41] mildbeard: move to table it until next week

[19:58:47] teamcoltra: Seconds?

[19:58:53] MrSquared: second

[19:58:57] Bosun: second

[19:59:01] teamcoltra: in favour?

[19:59:08] mildbeard: aye

[19:59:09] Bosun: aye

[19:59:24] MrSquared: aye

[19:59:31] teamcoltra: OyajiVyse

[19:59:34] teamcoltra: Bosun

[19:59:38] OyajiVyse: aye

[19:59:41] teamcoltra: sorry Bosun

[19:59:49] teamcoltra: called the vote

[19:59:59] Deamon: aye

[20:00:06] Sacha_: 4 for

[20:00:25] teamcoltra: And a motion to adjourn?

[20:00:35] mildbeard: I move to adjourn the meeting.

[20:00:44] Bosun: move to adjourn

[20:00:47] MrSquared: i second

[20:00:50] Bosun: second

[20:00:54] teamcoltra: favour?

[20:00:55] mildbeard: third

[20:00:59] mildbeard: aye

[20:01:01] Bosun: aye

[20:01:03] OyajiVyse: aye

[20:01:05] MrSquared: aye

[20:01:07] Deamon: aye

[20:01:15] teamcoltra: vote called

[20:01:17] teamcoltra: good night guys

USPP Home/Party Updates

2012-08-30T05:48:08Z

Kusanagi: august 29nd to 29th

<noinclude>
{{USPP NAV}}
</noinclude>
[{{fullurl:USPP_Home/Party Updates|action=edit}} Edit] this section
''August 29th''
*[[PNC 8/29/12|PNC Meeting]]
''August 22nd''
*[[PNC 8/22/12|PNC Meeting]]
''August 15th''
*[[PNC 8/15/12|PNC Meeting]]
''August 8st''
*[[PNC 8/8/12|PNC Meeting]]
''August 1st''
*[[PNC 8/1/12|PNC Meeting]]
''July 25th''
*[[PNC 7/25/12|PNC Meeting]]
**''PNC [[Pirate_National_Committee_(PNC)/Constitution|Constitution]] was adopted''
''July 18th''
*[[PNC 7/18/12|PNC Meeting]]
''July 11th''
*[[PNC 7/11/12|PNC Meeting]]
''June 28th 2012''
*PNC Constitution Due - Help out [[Policy|here]].
**Due date extended to July 26th
''June 27th''
*[[PNC 6/27/12|PNC Meeting]]
''June 20th''
*[[PNC 6/20/12|PNC Meeting]]
''June 13th''
*[[PNC 6/13/12|PNC Meeting]]
''June 6th''
*[[PNC 6/6/12|PNC Meeting]]
''May 23rd''
*[[PNC 5/23/12|PNC Meeting]]
''May 16th''
*[[PNC 5/16/12|PNC Meeting]]
''May 9th''
*[[PNC 5/9/12|PNC Meeting]]
''May 2st''
*[[PNC 5/2/12|PNC Meeting]]
''May 1st''
*[[USPP 5/1/12|IRC Meeting]]
''April 25th''
*[[PNC 4/25/12|PNC meeting]]
 
'''''Minutes before this point were lost during a move to a new host. Sorry for the inconvenience.'''''
 
''January 22nd''
*[[No Safe Harbor: Essays about Pirate Politics|USPP Book]] will be released to the public
''January 17th''
*[[USPP 1/17/12|IRC Meeting]]
''January 1st''
*[[No Safe Harbor: Essays about Pirate Politics|USPP Book]] will be finalized and published
''December 20th''
*[[USPP 12/20/11|IRC Meeting]]
''December 13th''
*[[USPP 12/13/11|IRC Meeting]]
''December 6th''
*[[USPP 12/6/11|IRC Meeting]]
''December 1st''
*[[USPP Unnamed book foreword|Foreword]] edits for the USPP book due
''November 29th''
*[[USPP 11/29/11|IRC Meeting]]
''November 22nd''
*[[USPP 11/22/11|IRC Meeting]]
''November 15th''
*[[USPP 11/15/11|IRC Meeting]]
''November 8th''
*[[USPP 11/8/11|IRC Meeting]]
''November 5th''
*All essay entries due for the [[USPP Unnamed Book|Pirate Party Book]]

<noinclude>
[[Category:USPP Templates]]
</noinclude>

PNC 8/22/12

2012-08-29T20:32:19Z

Kusanagi: /* 1.3 - Officers of the PNC */

:'''Agenda PNC MEETING'''
::'''--- 08/22/2012 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/22/12

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*In Attendance:
**Jake Ziering, California
**Kyle DeVore, Oregon
**Zacqary Adam Green, New York
**Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin
**Jarod Smith, Georgia
**Bradley Hall, Florida
**Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts
**Brady Dibble, Washington

*excused
**none

*unexcused
**none

*probation
**Oklahoma, 6th week

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====

*James Eastman Jr., Michigan
*Cullen Matthews, Illinois
*Benjamin Sauerhaft Coplon, Pennsylvania

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====
*Travis McCrea, ID, Captain
*Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, First Mate
*Amanda Johnson, MI, Acting Secretary at the request of Jeff Talada, WA, Secretary

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting opened at: 09:00pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting closed at: 11:31pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting chaired by Travis McCrea/Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Secretary for this meeting is Amanda Johnson
*Quorum is established: Members 8 out of 8 present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===
====4.1 - Short report of the board members ====

=====Massachusetts=====
Liquid feedback is going well and there are a few alpha testers. New Hampshire now has a state party.

=====Washington=====
No news

=====Oregon=====
Working on recruiting friends and making a facebook page.

=====Georgia====
No news

=====Florida=====
Kicking butt and taking names. Starting to work on No Safe Harbor 2 and working on getting ahold of florida.pirate-party.us.

=====New York=====
No news

=====California=====
Working on music project and internships. The Pirate Hour is hosting a prominent libertarian this week and California has a few reservations about the PNC constitution that will be discussed later in the meeting.

=====Wisconsin=====
Tweeting and getting support on facebook. Continuing to work on web infrastructure.

==== 4.2 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====
No news

=====Bylaws Committee=====
There is a rough draft of the by laws available at 'https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k6HyleGs_5009RlEgxW-wXmh4zSZeCJo1zBJkzTRoW8/edit?pli=1'

Voting on the bylaws will be held next week. The bylaws committee will add a specific date to the bylaws.

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===

==== 5.1 ad-hoc Convention Committee ====
Motion to create a convention committe
Passed with 5.5 aye
Chaired by Boson

==== 5.2 California's concerns about the Constitution ====
Problem 1: The strictly science based approach to decision making.
Discussion will be moved to another time after a proposed amendment has been created.

Problem 2: Expanding the core values to include health care, education and access to the internet.
Representatives will take this amendment "We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment, health, and well-being of all people," back to their states for discussion and voting next week.

=== - AOB - ===

Motion to adjourn meeting
Quorum failed, captain ended the meeting anyway.

*Next meeting: TBA at 9PM EDT
*Meeting closed:11:31 pm

Log:
[21:00] <@teamcoltra> I call the meeting to order lets do roll call

[21:01] <Deamon> James Eastman Jr., Michigan

[21:01] == LolItsAnAcronym [~Fagulox@298-730-783-26.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #pnc

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v Deamon] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <MrSquared> Kyle DeVore, Oregon

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v MrSquared] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <jake> jake ziering, california

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v jake] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <CullenMatthews> CullenMatthews, Illinois

[21:01] <Zacqary> Zacqary Adam Green, New York

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v CullenMatthews] by teamcoltra

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v Zacqary] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <+Deamon> again, pretty sure Michigan doesn't get voice since it's observer status

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [-v Deamon] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <Bosun> Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin

[21:02] == mode/#pnc [+v Bosun] by teamcoltra

[21:02] <Deamon> thank you

[21:02] <passstab> kbenjamin sauerhaft coplon Pennsylvania

[21:03] <Sacha> Amanda Johnson, Michigan. Deamon is the rep tonight.

[21:03] <@teamcoltra> So tonight's meeting has 5 out of 8 states present

[21:03] <@kusanagi> Lindsay-Anne Brunner, New York.

[21:04] <@teamcoltra> Sacha you are tonights Quartermaster at the request of Jeffery Talada

[21:04] <@teamcoltra> if you accept the responsibility

[21:04] == LolItsAnAcronym [~Fagulox@298-730-783-26.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]

[21:04] <Sacha> I accept and am on time this week ;)

[21:04] <@teamcoltra> Sweet. So then lets review last weeks minutes http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12

[21:05] <@teamcoltra> Once you have read and accepted last weeks minutes just say so

[21:05] <jarod_> Jarod Smith GA

[21:06] == mode/#pnc [+v jarod_] by teamcoltra

[21:06] <+Bosun> read and accepted

[21:06] <Deamon> Read

[21:06] <+jake> read and accepted

[21:06] <Rush> Bradley Hall, Florida

[21:07] <+CullenMatthews> read and accepted

[21:07] <+MrSquared> read and accepted

[21:07] <Rush> accepted and read

[21:07] == mode/#pnc [+v Brendan] by teamcoltra

[21:07] == mode/#pnc [-v Brendan] by teamcoltra

[21:07] <+Zacqary> Read and accepted

[21:07] == mode/#pnc [+v Rush] by teamcoltra

[21:08] <@teamcoltra> Okay let's do reports. Oregon is up first

[21:09] <mildbeard> Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts

[21:09] <@teamcoltra> MrSquared

[21:09] == mode/#pnc [+v mildbeard] by teamcoltra

[21:09] <+MrSquared> Yep, one sec

[21:10] <@teamcoltra> ( mildbeard I will go to you next )

[21:10] <+MrSquared> I am still in process in making a facebook page for ORPP, and I am going to update our website to have
important information as well

[21:10] <+MrSquared> also I am looking to recruit one of my friends to help me out with this stuff

[21:10] <+MrSquared> that's all

[21:11] <@teamcoltra> Thanks MrSquared

[21:11] <@teamcoltra> mildbeard - Whats up with Mass?

[21:11] <+mildbeard> Our liquid feedback testing has gone well as far as I can see.

[21:11] <+mildbeard> We have a "Massachusetts" section but we also have a "United States" section and a few alpha testers from
outside of Mass volunteered to help.

[21:12] <+mildbeard> There is now a New Hampshire Pirate Party.

[21:12] <+mildbeard> Both Jamie and I have been away so there's not much to report.

[21:12] == mode/#pnc [-v CullenMatthews] by teamcoltra

[21:12] <+mildbeard> that's it for Mass.

[21:12] <@kusanagi> Yay NH!

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> I have been talking to NH Pirates, dave (right?) seems to have a good plan

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> Thanks

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> Chris

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> not dave

[21:13] <+mildbeard> yep

[21:13] <+mildbeard> Chris helped found MAPP.

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> Georiga / jarod_

[21:13] == Takyoji[mobile] [~wircer@uk-12q-bkul6-8006.dsl.hickorytech.net] has joined #pnc

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> your up

[21:14] <+jarod_> no news

[21:14] <@teamcoltra> Brad/Rush Florida

[21:15] <+Rush> In Florida we are kicking butt and taking names. We're preparing to start actually working on NSH2 in a few weeks.
We also were able to talk to Chris Sheats long enough to take control of florida.pirate-party.us. Other than that, we're rocking.

[21:15] <+Rush> Done

[21:15] <@teamcoltra> :) Thanks Rush

[21:16] <@teamcoltra> New York / Zacqary

[21:16] <+Zacqary> Nothing to report. Unless I'm missing something, kusanagi?

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> jake you will be up if kusanagi has nothing else

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> Okay well since she's not replying

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> go ahead jake

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> whats going on in California

[21:19] <+jake> we don't have quite so much this week :) We're continuing work on our music project and internship proposals; we
have a pirate hour this thursday with a prominent libertarian who we get to debate about some points of disagreement; and we've gone over the constitution and have some suggestions for potential revisions

[21:19] == kusanagi [~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]

[21:19] <+jake> if you're interested in either attending the pirate hour or being part of the music project, shoot an email to calpirateparty@gmail.co

[21:19] <+jake> m

[21:19] <+jake> done

[21:20] <@teamcoltra> Thanks jake

[21:20] <@teamcoltra> Bosun / Cheese State

[21:20] <+Bosun> Slow backend work on our web infrastructure. Tweeting our brains out. Upward trends continue on FB. Too many
students and teacher members here preparing for school. Nothing else to report this week.

[21:21] == kusanagi [~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #pnc

[21:21] == mode/#pnc [+o kusanagi] by ChanServ

[21:21] <@teamcoltra> Sweet, thanks Bosun

[21:21] <@teamcoltra> Now is Caleb not here, or using a screenname that I don't recognize?

[21:22] <@teamcoltra> Okay I am assuming not, passstab or anyone else who is familliar with IT want to say anything?

[21:22] == jarod [~yaaic@66.87.npi.px] has joined #pnc

[21:22] <@teamcoltra> matuck- maybe?

[21:23] <@kusanagi> He's here

[21:23] <@kusanagi> Takyoji[mobile]: IT!

[21:23] <Deamon> Beuller?

[21:23] <passstab> whoa i'm familiar with IT?

[21:23] <@teamcoltra> I thought you were doing a project in IT

[21:23] <@kusanagi> Apparently not lol

[21:23] <@teamcoltra> :P I am just trying to get anyone who has anything to report on IT at all... but it looks like we will come
back to it

[21:24] <@teamcoltra> Bylaws Committee - I know Sacha sent an email to the SAB so I will let her start

[21:25] <Sacha> Yay!

[21:25] <Sacha> I made up some by laws and sent them on the SAB list

[21:25] <Sacha> http://piratepad.net/QARAiTYdmT

[21:25] <Sacha> Here they are, I hope everyone was able to take a look at them

[21:25] <Sacha> and i'm not sure if we are going to discuss them now or... what we are going to do with them

[21:25] <Sacha> but they exist

[21:26] <Sacha> and that is all I plan on putting in there right now

[21:26] <Sacha> so... whatever El capitan wants to do I am down with

[21:26] <@teamcoltra> Did you set out an election bylaw? ie when elections will be held?

[21:26] <Sacha> No, we agree on two months prior right?

[21:27] <Sacha> For some reason I thought that was a constitutional amendment

[21:27] <Sacha> ~*adding*~

[21:27] <@teamcoltra> It was a constitutional amendment

[21:27] <@teamcoltra> which we set the requirement to have a bylaw dictating the time

[21:27] <@teamcoltra> Which is what I have been waiting on since I have no legal framework to call an election

[21:28] == Takyoji[mobile] [~wircer@uk-12q-bkul6-8006.dsl.hickorytech.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

[21:28] <Sacha> Ahhh okay

[21:28] == jarod_ [webchat@68.66.mh.twl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]

[21:28] <+mildbeard> So is it a simple majority for the PNC to approve the bylaws - whenever we get to that?

[21:28] <+mildbeard> And also a simple majority to amend later?

[21:28] <@teamcoltra> Yeah

[21:28] <@kusanagi> I believe so

[21:29] <+mildbeard> k

[21:29] <@teamcoltra> I would suggest we go through these bylaws and just pass them

[21:29] <@teamcoltra> or not pass them

[21:29] <@teamcoltra> Most of them are basically enforcing the systems that we already have in place

[21:29] <+mildbeard> you mean individually, or all as a group?

[21:29] <+jake> dont we need to pass the constitution before we start bylaws?

[21:29] <Sacha> Jake We already did a few weeks ago

[21:29] <@kusanagi> jake: yeah, I think so.

[21:30] <@kusanagi> No, he means as a state

[21:30] <+Zacqary> Not everyone's ratified it yet.

[21:30] <+jake> I see

[21:30] <+mildbeard> The PNC approved the constitution but member states need to ratify before they can vote on the bylaws.

[21:30] <Sacha> I am confused about how that pertains to the by laws

[21:30] <@teamcoltra> But current members who have ratified the constitution should be able to vote on bylaws

[21:30] <+jake> gotcha

[21:30] <+mildbeard> what about at-large states?

[21:31] <Sacha> Who are the current members? Just for when I am voting so that I can get it down on a notebook

[21:31] <+Zacqary> Also, I'd prefer not to vote on these bylaws yet because I'm still working on some structural frameworks I'd
like to propose.

[21:31] <+Zacqary> I can have these by next week.

[21:31] <Sacha> Mildbeard We have allowed them to vote in the past

[21:31] <+mildbeard> I'm wondering if they have to ratify, is all.

[21:31] <Sacha> I would be fine with allowing people to edit for a week if they have things they wish to change/add

[21:31] <@teamcoltra> Yeah mildbeard I honestly don't know, I was going to just accept their votes... but they have to ratify if
they become full members

[21:32] <@teamcoltra> its required now

[21:32] == kusi [~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #pnc

[21:32] == mode/#pnc [+o kusi] by ChanServ

[21:32] <+jake> what is the process for making changes to the constitution at this point?

[21:32] <Sacha> Mildbeard I think it is required for them to become a state party but they are not considered parties so they can
still vote. The ratification is just neccessary to become a full member from my understanding.

[21:32] <Sacha> Jake Making a motion and having I believe a 2/3rds to amend

[21:32] <+mildbeard> OK probably. I'm going to read it just to familiarize myself...

[21:32] <+jake> and I can both make a motion and vote, even before ratifying?

[21:33] <Sacha> How long was the exception we gave states?

[21:33] <@teamcoltra> I would also be willing to accept all states who have not ratified the constitution the same as at-large

[21:33] <@teamcoltra> it's stupid to not let them vote, but let at larges vote

[21:33] <@kusanagi> teamcoltra: that's what we've been doing, iirc.

[21:33] <Sacha> I thought that was how we were going to do it lol, they would just become glorified at larges

[21:34] <@teamcoltra> Exactly

[21:34] <@teamcoltra> I just don't think it's come up where I have had to do that

[21:34] <+Bosun> To further discussion, Wisconsin is willing to act as a conduit for any non ratified state who wishes to make a
motion.

[21:34] <Sacha> How long was the exception?

[21:34] <+jake> alright

[21:34] <Sacha> And how long has it been since we voted on the consitution

[21:35] <@kusanagi> It was 6 months, I believe.

[21:35] <Sacha> also what states are full members so that I can write that down for when I am counting votes

[21:35] <@kusanagi> I could be wrong

[21:36] <@teamcoltra> We accepted it July 25th

[21:36] <@teamcoltra> I thought it was 2 months

[21:36] <+Bosun> Look at the minutes.

[21:36] == kusanagi_mobi [~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #pnc

[21:36] == mode/#pnc [+o kusanagi_mobi] by ChanServ

[21:36] == kusanagi [~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]

[21:36] <@teamcoltra> I am looking through them now Bosun

[21:37] <Sacha> <+QuazarGuy> "III.2.G. Ratify the PNC Constitution" <+mildbeard> We should add a time frame. <@teamcoltra> Ohh I
see <@teamcoltra> I was thinking, nevermind :P <+mildbeard> "III.2.G Ratify the PNC Constitution within 6 months of its adoption, or prior to the member state's admission, whichever is later."

[21:37] <Sacha> 6 months

[21:37] <Sacha> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_7/25/12

[21:38] <@teamcoltra> Yeah I was just getting to that spot

[21:38] <Sacha> ctrl + f <3

[21:38] <+mildbeard> It doesn't actually say that.

[21:38] <+mildbeard> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/Pirate_National_Committee_%28PNC%29/Constitution#ARTICLE_III:_Membership

[21:38] <Sacha> Yup, it needs to be changed

[21:38] <Sacha> because as I remember Zach wasn't in and we couldn't edit without him

[21:39] <Sacha> Could you add me to the people that can edit that and i'll cross reference the amendments with the wording this
week?

[21:39] <@teamcoltra> I think matuck- gave me editing privilages

[21:39] <@teamcoltra> Do you guys want to pause for a second to update it, or someone just query me and I will do it after

[21:39] <@kusanagi_mobi> We all have editing privs now

[21:39] <+mildbeard> Update it.

[21:39] <+mildbeard> We passed it, and it's important to have it right.

[21:39] <Sacha> Wait to edit it

[21:40] <Sacha> Until we find all of the errors

[21:40] <@teamcoltra> I am just going to update it

[21:40] <Sacha> Do you plan on going through the amendments and stuff or would you like me to and then send the notes to you?

[21:40] <Sacha> Or kusinagi can cuz she is the firstmate or someone else etc.

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> Oh... if there is a big list of things

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> then just compile a list for now

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> I can do it.

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> But just a note

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> Okay thanks kusanagi_mobi

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> We all have editing privs now

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> Anyone with a wiki account

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> Well let's keep going

[21:42] <Sacha> What do we wish to do with the bylaws

[21:43] <Sacha> I believe that is where we were

[21:43] <@teamcoltra> So do we want to pass bylaws or not? I would be in favour of it... otherwise it could be 6 months

[21:43] <+mildbeard> I'm not sure we're ready - maybe give us a week for final comments.

[21:43] <@teamcoltra> Who HAS ratified the Constitution?

[21:43] <+Bosun> Wisconsin

[21:43] <@kusanagi_mobi> NY, MA, WA..

[21:43] <@kusanagi_mobi> WI

[21:43] <+Zacqary> I'd like to wait till next week too because I'm still working on some stuff.

[21:44] <+Zacqary> And I think I'm still committee head, right?

[21:44] <+Zacqary> So.

[21:44] <+Zacqary> Yeah.

[21:44] <@teamcoltra> Zacqary :) Fair enough

[21:44] <Sacha> I am happy with waiting until next week, it will let me make it pretty

[21:44] <Sacha> Do we need a vote or are we good with this?

[21:44] <@teamcoltra> Can you guys include a date for elections (I would suggest September 5th)

[21:44] <@teamcoltra> in your bylaws

[21:44] <Sacha> No

[21:44] <Sacha> Unless it is something like

[21:44] <Sacha> "the second meeting of september"

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> No....

[21:45] <Sacha> or "the second wednesday" etc.

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> We specifically outlined this in the constitution

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> the general date was set in the constitution

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> but the exact date will be set by bylaw

[21:46] <Sacha> So we need to do a specific date

[21:46] <Sacha> Day and everything

[21:46] <@teamcoltra> yes

[21:46] <Sacha> What if the date ends up being on a saturday

[21:46] <Sacha> or a friday though

[21:47] <@kusanagi_mobi> So special meeting

[21:47] <@teamcoltra> It's a bylaw since it's so easy to be fixed every year

[21:47] <Sacha> or a terrible day for people to meet and vote

[21:47] <Sacha> That is so unnecessary though

[21:47] <Sacha> why fix something when we can do it right

[21:47] <Sacha> but we are screwed into it by the constitution

[21:47] <Sacha> I wish I had paid attention to that but nothing to do now I guess

[21:47] <@teamcoltra> You could set the date as "the third monday" or something

[21:47] <Sacha> We'll do it as we are required to do.

[21:47] <@teamcoltra> but it needs to be specific

[21:47] <+mildbeard> What exactly is the wording in the constitution?

[21:48] <Sacha> TeamColtra you mean like "21:45] <Sacha> or "the second wednesday" etc."

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> Sacha sorry I missed that - Yes that would be acceptable

[21:48] <+mildbeard> Can anyone point me to the exact language?

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> mildbeard

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> I am getting it

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> it was 2 weeks ago

[21:49] <Sacha> TeamColtra Kay, we will do it for sure then ^_^

[21:50] <Sacha> Also a quick notice to everyone: Is anyone having problems accessing the google docs? Because it is much more
efficient for the by laws and I would like to switch activity to that document if possible as that is where the editing is taking place.

[21:50] <@teamcoltra> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12#5_-_Agenda_Items

[21:50] <@teamcoltra> Vote held to amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly convention shall
be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws

[21:51] <+mildbeard> So a convention doesn't mean that it's an in-person event?

[21:51] <@teamcoltra> No, it would be an econvention

[21:51] <@teamcoltra> :)

[21:52] == kusanagi_mobi [~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]

[21:52] <@teamcoltra> Basically the convention is to elect our leadership and approve a national presidential candidate if needed

[21:52] <+mildbeard> That's pretty flexible language, so the bylaws can use any way of saying what the date is as long as it's
clear.

[21:52] <@teamcoltra> mildbeard that's what I was saying

[21:52] <+mildbeard> and I agree.

[21:53] <@teamcoltra> I made a mistake in saying the bylaws can't say "the second wednesday" or something

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[21:53] == mode/#pnc [+o kusanagi] by ChanServ

[21:53] <Sacha> Yeah, that is okay though. I am just relieved it can be that.

[21:53] <@teamcoltra> So anyway, Sacha / Zacqary please include something in the bylaws

[21:53] <+mildbeard> kusanagi has us surrounded :)

[21:53] <Sacha> I put it on the agenda so we're good and made a note in my to-do list ^_^

[21:53] <+Zacqary> Will do.

[21:53] <Sacha> So to wrap up the by laws committee

[21:54] <Sacha> We're going to switch to this google doc

[21:54] <Sacha> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k6HyleGs_5009RlEgxW-wXmh4zSZeCJo1zBJkzTRoW8/edit?pli=1#heading=h.5u1huqm6xjta

[21:54] <Sacha> that is the only official place for editing that will be accepted

[21:54] <@kusanagi> mildbeard: sorry, working on fixing something and IRC keeps disconnecting

[21:54] <+Bosun> example from US code : The electors of President and Vice President shall be appointed, in each State, on the
Tuesday next after the first Monday in November, in every fourth year succeeding every election of a President and Vice President.

[21:54] <Sacha> Please comment, ask questions etc. and then we can vote next week. Sound good?

[21:54] <@kusanagi> I really am not comfortable with using a google doc

[21:54] <+mildbeard> np kusanagi just smiling along with you

[21:54] <Sacha> Kusanagi why not

[21:55] <@kusanagi> We should e using piratepad, I think.

[21:55] <@kusanagi> And to restrict us to a Google doc is well, kind of ludicrous.

[21:55] <+Rush> Guys, I need to head out.

[21:55] <+mildbeard> a wiki page would be a good alternative because it tracks history.

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[21:56] <@kusanagi> Oooh, I like that one too, mildbeard

[21:56] <@teamcoltra> piratepad tracks history too

[21:56] <@kusanagi> It should be something we "own"

[21:56] <@kusanagi> A google doc lacks that feeling.

[21:57] <+Zacqary> Google Docs is easier for me, personally, but I can transfer my work to whichever system we need.

[21:57] <+mildbeard> A google doc might have a privacy concern if it wasn't part of our open government transparency.

[21:57] <@teamcoltra> lol you mean like the German pirate pad where your connection is intercpeted by a government line? It's honestly up to Zacqary

[21:57] <@teamcoltra> It's his committee

[21:57] <+Bosun> For continuity can we agree on piratepad?

[21:57] <passstab> kusanagi, is right we should be willing to sacrifice small functionality to use something that is FOSS and respectful of privacy

[21:58] <@teamcoltra> I am going to move on, because it's not a PNC matter - it's a committee issue. Join the committee and decide as a team if you have a preference

[21:58] <+mildbeard> hear, hear.

[21:58] <@teamcoltra> Agenda Items

[21:59] <@teamcoltra> Who was the one who proposed: ad hoc Convention Committee

[21:59] <+Bosun> Twas I

[21:59] <@teamcoltra> Bosun go ahead

[22:00] <+Bosun> I propose the formation of an ad hoc convention committe.

[22:00] <@teamcoltra> With the purpose of?

[22:01] <@teamcoltra> (I am not disagreeing, I am asking for clarity)

[22:01] == itspara [~AndChat64@69.255.xyx.lw] has joined #pnc

[22:01] <+Bosun> Of organizing our convention.

[22:01] <+mildbeard> Are you referring to the same convention that the bylaws committee has to set the date for?

[22:02] <+Bosun> Yes. …. organizing and publicity.

[22:02] <@teamcoltra> Would they manage voting and such?

[22:03] <+Bosun> We should inform the world that we are having a convention, even if small and even if virtual.

[22:04] <@kusanagi> I don't think a offline convention could be attended by many right now, but yes.

[22:05] <+Bosun> We would need to hatch a plan. It would be unwise to have delegates or candidates count votes. We need to be more
above board than anyone else.

[22:05] <@kusanagi> We should tell everyone, especially in light of the Adbusters thing.

[22:05] <+mildbeard> sure why not.

[22:05] <+Bosun> We need to show that we walk the walk on transparency and democracy.

[22:06] <+Bosun> Even if it is laptops in a hotel room.

[22:06] <@teamcoltra> ;) just keep your webcam off

[22:06] <@teamcoltra> But seriously I agree

[22:06] <@kusanagi> teamcoltra: lol

[22:07] <+jake> ok I vote yes

[22:07] <+jake> lets make a committee

[22:07] <+mildbeard> who would be the committee chair?

[22:07] <@teamcoltra> Okay well can someone make a voteable motion

[22:07] <@teamcoltra> which is very specific

[22:07] <@teamcoltra> if you want the committee to handle voting -- it needs to say that

[22:08] <+mildbeard> I move that the PNC create a convention committee to be responsible for organizing the convention on the date
to be specified in the bylaws, including voting, and to handle any associated publicity and promotions.

[22:09] <+jake> second

[22:09] <@teamcoltra> Do we want further discussion on it?

[22:09] <@teamcoltra> anyone disagree wit that?

[22:09] <@teamcoltra> with*

[22:09] <+Bosun> Yea that works … cuz I am a slow typist

[22:10] <+jake> lets proceed to vote

[22:10] <@teamcoltra> Okay all in favour of the motion the PNC create a convention committee to be responsible for organizing the
convention on the date to be specified in the bylaws, including voting, and to handle any associated publicity and promotions.

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[22:10] == kusi has changed nick to kusanagi

[22:10] <@teamcoltra> Please say aye, all against nay

[22:10] <+jake> aye

[22:10] <+Bosun> aye

[22:10] <+mildbeard> aye

[22:11] <passstab> aye

[22:11] <+Zacqary> Aye

[22:11] <jarod> Aye

[22:11] <@teamcoltra> Okay vote called

[22:12] <@teamcoltra> Sacha can you give the official total

[22:12] <Sacha> 5.5 for I believe

[22:12] <Sacha> my first count so check out my math :I

[22:12] == mode/#pnc [+v jarod] by teamcoltra

[22:12] <@teamcoltra> yes

[22:12] <@teamcoltra> thats righ

[22:13] <@teamcoltra> Okay does anyone want to volunteer to head the committee?

[22:13] <@kusanagi> Honestly, Bosun seems like he understands this well

[22:13] <@kusanagi> maybe?

[22:13] <+Bosun> Yeah … since I proposed it. BTW how do we setup an IRC channel?

[22:14] <+jake> I second Bosun

[22:14] <@kusanagi> Bosun, I can help with that

[22:14] <@teamcoltra> Bosun just join the channel

[22:14] <+Bosun> I would like volunteers.

[22:14] <+mildbeard> Type /join name-of-channel

[22:15] <+Bosun> ahh … ok

[22:15] <@teamcoltra> like if you want to create #boson just /join boson

[22:15] <+Bosun> gotcha

[22:15] <+Bosun> I need to RTFM.

[22:15] <@kusanagi> Bosun, lol

[22:15] <@kusanagi> it happens

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[22:16] <@teamcoltra> Okay so Bosun will head the committee

[22:17] <@teamcoltra> I think we can move on to 5.2

[22:17] <@teamcoltra> jake California's concerns about the Constitution

[22:17] <@teamcoltra> go ahead

[22:18] <+jake> ok

[22:18] <+jake> so there are a variety of suggestions, most of which I would characterise as linguistic

[22:18] <+jake> I could go through them all right now, but I think it would be better to submit a word doc

[22:19] <+jake> there's really two main issues, that make it so at this time we have to say no to ratification

[22:19] <+mildbeard> are there any major issues that would impact ratification?

[22:19] == jarod2 [~yaaic@70.147.pzk.nn] has joined #pnc

[22:19] <+jake> #1

[22:19] <+jake> Article 1 Section 3 "Values"

[22:19] <+jake> Value 6, currently worded as 6. Current Wording: "We are a post-ideological meritocracy. Policy and decision-making
must be based on evidence and scientific reasoning. The approach that works best, or the person who does the best job, must be chosen over the alternatives. Where possible, we avoid making decisions or selecting leaders based on tradition, popularity, authority or ideology"

[22:20] <+jake> we don't like it and would call for its removal altogether

[22:20] <+jake> There are enough elements of this that I find problematic that I would prefer it was done away with entirely. For
one thing, meritocracy is an ideology, and though it claims to be neutral to a bunch of social issues like race, class, gender, etc., it can be convincingly argued that this neutrality supports status quo power structures. As a practical example of this, wouldn't the current wording prevent a pirate from endorsing affirmative ac

[22:20] <+mildbeard> what's the problem with it?

[22:20] <+jake> heehe

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[22:21] <@teamcoltra> jake you got cut off

[22:21] <+jake> doh

[22:21] <+jake> how far

[22:21] <+jake> did it go?

[22:21] <@teamcoltra> California's concerns about the Constitution

[22:21] <@teamcoltra> err

[22:21] <@teamcoltra> t wording prevent a pirate from endorsing affirmative ac

[22:21] <+jake> prevent a pirate from endorsing affirmativeaction? What this plank implies to me is a sort of technocracy, where policymakers seethemselves as carrying out an essentially scientific mission in social and political space. Thisis just not how I view my relationship with politics. My belief in equality, for instance, is notgrounded in pragmatism - it is profoundly ideological.

[22:21] <+jake> If studies were to find that "theapproach that works best" did so in a non-equal manner (say, racial profiling at
airports), Iwould remain opposed to such a thing on principle. If all policy must be based on scientificreasoning, am I disallowed from voting based on principle?

[22:21] <+jake> These questions become evenmore problematic when applied to the last line. Any approach that selects leaders based noton authority or popularity or tradition (or any combination thereof), but rather throughsupposed merit, seems destined to be anti-democratic. These are just a few of the CPP's concerns.

[22:22] <+Bosun> Can you suggest an alternative wording?

[22:22] <+Zacqary> Erik Zoltan wrote that passage, so I wish he were here to comment.

[22:23] <@teamcoltra> If studies that were peer reviewed proved 100% conclusively that some approach works best... than yes... I
would believe we should follow it

[22:23] <+mildbeard> I'm Erik...

[22:23] <+Zacqary> OH

[22:23] <+Zacqary> DERP

[22:23] <+mildbeard> lol

[22:23] <@kusanagi> lol

[22:23] <@kusanagi> a wild zoltan has appeared

[22:23] <+jake> I don't think its modifiable in a way we would agree with.. at least not without such severe modifications that it might as well be done away with entirely, and a new form proposed

[22:24] <+Zacqary> The way I interpret values 6 and 7 are the Hacker Ethic, basically.

[22:24] <+Zacqary> So that's what I suggest we base any rewording on.

[22:24] <+mildbeard> I understand the objections jake has raised. They are serious issues and deserve to be dealt with.

[22:24] <+Zacqary> I do too.

[22:25] <+mildbeard> That said, I'm completely opposed to simply removing this value and leaving nothing in its place.

[22:25] <+Zacqary> As am I.

[22:25] <@teamcoltra> I don't think the Pirate Party should be in the business of making people "feel better", if the science
supports conclusively a platform point... then we need to embrace it

[22:25] <+jake> I would be open to hearing alternate wordings brought forward at a later time - or would happily take back alternate wordings to my people and see what they think.

[22:25] <+mildbeard> We have major parties that actually don't believe in anything, and that have contradictory positions based on nothing more than rhetoric. The point of that value is that we need something more than that.

[22:27] <+mildbeard> On the other hand, it would be possible to take the words in the "values" section (not just this value) and
twist them into something pretty horrible if we had cynical people who didn't know the difference between right and wrong.

[22:27] <@teamcoltra> Btw, California voted in favour of this concept when it was proposed before the constitution was passed.

[22:27] <+Zacqary> People can change their minds after thinking about things.

[22:27] <BradyMobile> Falkvinge's pirate wheel suggests that which is ' necessary, effective, proportionate, and evidence-based'.

[22:27] <+Bosun> Is this the point where we discuss post-modernism?

[22:27] <@teamcoltra> BradyMobile identify please?

[22:28] <+jake> Bosun, I hope not, unless we want our meeting to run on into infintiy

[22:28] <BradyMobile> Brady Dibble, Washington

[22:28] == mode/#pnc [+v BradyMobile] by teamcoltra

[22:28] <+Zacqary> I always thought we were a rather metamodernist party.

[22:28] <+Zacqary> Actually, never mind, let's not get into this.

[22:28] <+Zacqary> Shit shit shit abort.

[22:29] <Deamon> I'm postmetaultrasupermodernist

[22:29] <+mildbeard> So wait, that was only #1 of California's major issues right?

[22:29] <@teamcoltra> I'm a Pirate

[22:29] <+jake> Can we rephrase Value 6 as expressing an openness to dialog and debate about ideas; a willingness to give all people a chance both to be heard and to lead

[22:29] <@teamcoltra> jake you have the option to make a motion on #1

[22:29] <+Zacqary> That's Value 7.

[22:30] <@teamcoltra> though it doesn't seem popular... you can propose an amendment to the constituion

[22:30] <+jake> I dont have wording

[22:30] <@teamcoltra> kk

[22:30] <+Bosun> put the word 'democracy' in it

[22:30] <+jake> here's what I'm saying to mildbeard mostly

[22:30] <@teamcoltra> just wanted you to know that no one can prevent you from making a motion

[22:30] <+jake> If you could take out some of the stronger language in value 6 and roll some language into value 7, I believe you could maintain much of what you're trying to say without making the party seem obsessed with scientific rationality

[22:31] <+Zacqary> Bosun, I think democracy ought to be the logical conclusion of our values, not our values itself. It's a method. If a better system than democracy somehow comes along we should remain open to it.

[22:31] <+jake> that sort of amendment, if proposed and accepted, would allow california to ratify

[22:31] <+jake> I don't have wording for it right now; it should probably be thought about for at least a week

[22:31] <@teamcoltra> jake - It's my belief the party /should/ be obsessed with scientific rationality

[22:32] <+mildbeard> I think we can come up with a wording that would address the concern.

[22:32] <@teamcoltra> maybe not "obsessed" but highly dedicated

[22:32] <@kusanagi> obsessed is a very strong word.

[22:32] <+mildbeard> However I also feel that the concerns really wouldn't be a problem in view of the other core values in the document.

[22:32] <+Bosun> It is a constitution, not stone tablets from god.

[22:32] <+BradyMobile> Belief is a dangerous word.

[22:32] <+Zacqary> I think the problem with scientific rationality is that you have people like the hilariously-named Reason
magazine claiming that as their ideology, and ruining it for all the other actually rational people in the world.

[22:32] <+jake> just to give a counbterpoint to that Travis, here in California we're working with a lot of artists and musicians
who are very excited to be part of the party. that's not a fitting description of them. So I think it might be best for the party to leave room for individual discretiuon, on what we choose to be obsessed with

[22:33] <+jake> at least to a state level

[22:34] <+jake> so we had 1 more concern

[22:34] <+Bosun> Empirical evidence ..

[22:34] <+mildbeard> so there's a specific objection to science and meritocracy in value 6.

[22:34] <+mildbeard> actually post-ideological too.

[22:34] <+jake> this time it's an addition. we feel that the values as written do not expresses the progressive social agenda of
the Pirate Party. If we are going to be the party of the Internet, we need to champion things like access to the Internet, which can be couched in the greater framework of progressivism and social welfare. The CPP has always felt this is at the core of being a pirate.

[22:35] <+jake> so we'd propose the additional value:We believe in a progressive government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of democracy, including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet

[22:35] <+BradyMobile> Scientific reasoning is a neutral tool.

[22:35] <@teamcoltra> jake - to me it seems that California is taking a very "american" view of the word "science".

[22:35] <+BradyMobile> The method can be applied to humanitarian purposes.

[22:35] <+Zacqary> Well, actually, if you look at the numbers, a progressive government IS the approach that works best.

[22:36] <+Zacqary> So..that's value 6 right there.

[22:36] <+Bosun> Do you object to the word scientific or empirical reasoning as a philisophical point?

[22:36] <@teamcoltra> Zacqary exactly

[22:36] <+jake> theres no particular word we object to...

[22:36] <+Zacqary> Jake, I think what you're afraid of is bullshitters cherry-picking statistics and distorting facts rather than
actual hard evidence. Because actual hard evidence supports exactly what you're asking for.

[22:36] <+mildbeard> Well, there's a specific reason why the progressive social issues other than equality weren't proposed for
inclusion in the Constitution, so it makes sense to state what that is.

[22:37] <+jake> what I'm afraid of is not the bullshitters per se; it's the belief in infallible categories of truth like science that permit bullshitters such authority to peddle their bullshit

[22:37] <@teamcoltra> Zacqary lol your on a roll - I will just stay out of your way you are answering everything how I would ;)

[22:37] <+Bosun> Wiki the Wisconsin Idea.

[22:38] <@teamcoltra> True science cannot be bullshitted.

[22:38] <+jake> hard evidence is not a thing when applied to social science

[22:38] <@teamcoltra> It can be backed up

[22:38] <+jake> politics is not geology

[22:38] <@kusanagi> jake is right.

[22:38] <+mildbeard> The Pirate Party is a coalition of at least two very distinct ideologies - one is progressive and the other is
libertarian. There are a lot of libertarians out there who wouldn't be comfortable with a progressive social agenda. I don't know if this is really a problem, but that's why I never proposed to put any social progressive language into the core values.

[22:38] <+jake> I think its hugely irresponsible to be a party based in and around participation through the internet that doesn't take a progressive stance on things like access to the internet

[22:39] <+jake> the libertarian "let people figure out connections for themselves" is simply not appropriate

[22:39] <+mildbeard> Access to the internet is definitely a core value and it's in the pirate wheel. If it's not covered in the core values then we should add it.

[22:39] <+Zacqary> It's one of the conclusions of the Pirate Wheel.

[22:39] <+Zacqary> So it can be in our platform.

[22:39] <@teamcoltra> jake I agree 100% with that... and every paper I have read on Internet access has shown children who have access to internet connections perform better in school

[22:40] <+mildbeard> The Massachusetts Pirate Party is very socially progressive, and we would vote in favor of social progressive policies.

[22:40] <@teamcoltra> Science is a way to combat some of the libertarian social things that are just not founded in truth.

[22:40] <+mildbeard> Hold on, are we talking about item #1 (value 6) or item #2 (add progressive value)?

[22:41] <+BradyMobile> Science can go either way depending on your interpretation of the results.

[22:41] <+jake> neither is being voted on at this time, it's a general discussion of CPP's concerns

[22:41] <+mildbeard> OK but I'm getting confused so I'd like to discuss them separately.

[22:41] <+jake> that makes sense

[22:41] <+jake> lets start with the former

[22:42] <+Bosun> Science is a method not a result.

[22:42] <+jake> Can the language just get toned down? "Policy and decision-making must be based on evidence and scientific
reasoning." is sooo strong. You honestly believe politicians should never do what feels ethically right?

[22:42] <+mildbeard> On item 1 (value 6) I am still not sure that I understand in sufficient detail what California's objection is, in order to be able to propose alternative wording that would solve the problem and still keep the underlying point.

[22:43] <+jake> "The approach that works best, or the person who does the best job, must be chosen over the alternatives." is also
too strong. It prevents one from being in favor of Affirmative Action, for example

[22:43] <+BradyMobile> Ethics are subjective.

[22:43] <+BradyMobile> e.g. Legitimate Rape

[22:43] <+mildbeard> FIrst of all, it absolutely doesn't prevent one from being in favor of affirmative action!!!

[22:44] <+mildbeard> We have a core value 7 which talks about equality. If affirmative action is a good way to promote equality
then it's just fine.

[22:44] <+BradyMobile> If affirmative action is proven to produce the intended result.

[22:44] <+BradyMobile> Not just because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy

[22:45] <+BradyMobile> Mildbeard, was this your intention?

[22:45] <@teamcoltra> Exactly

[22:45] <@teamcoltra> Our policies shouldn't be based on making people feel better

[22:45] <+jake> then the two values contradict. Because in the interest of value 7, we can take someone who is not scientifically speaking the best for the job (in terms of test scores, experience) in favor of someone who benefits the diversity of the program

[22:45] <@teamcoltra> they should be about achieving positive results

[22:45] <+jake> value 6 says we must choose who is best for the job based on science

[22:46] <+Zacqary> The benefit from diversity outweighs the benefit from choosing the absolute best best best best person.

[22:46] <+mildbeard> Here's what we shouldn't do. We shouldn't adopt a policy because we're all liberal, and it makes us feel less
guilty about some people suffering. We should look at all the alternatives and try them out, and go with something that works. In the current political climate, it's "us against them" and as long as we defeat the opposing party it really doesn't seem to matter very much whether we are screwing up people's lives and making the world a horrible place

[22:46] <+mildbeard> If affirmative action works then we should be in favor of it.

[22:46] <+jake> then the wording needs to express our lack of political cynicism

[22:46] <@teamcoltra> Exactly, and if it doesn't... let's find something that actually HELPS minorities.

[22:46] <+mildbeard> If we go with something else, then it's becaus we have found that it is actually a more effective way of
promoting our core value of equality (value 7).

[22:47] <@teamcoltra> (not saying it doesn't, just saying IF it doesn't)

[22:47] <+Bosun> If it works. In some ways it has, but we still have racialy segregated slums.

[22:48] <+jake> the problem is that the debate will continue to rage about the exact science of 'whether or not it works'. because
sociology is not exact science. This is why the CPP believes it is important for us to be able to make decisions on purely ethical grounds

[22:48] <+jake> which value 6 disallows

[22:49] <+mildbeard> The intent of value 6 is not to disallow ethical grounds.

[22:49] <+mildbeard> So we can change that aspect.

[22:49] <+jake> then perhaps it is worded too strongly

[22:49] <@teamcoltra> I don't want to get into the subject too much -- but income based affirmitive action seems to be much more
promising than race based AA. However, by doing away with race based AA you run into the "emotional" impact of removing something you gave to minorities and redistributing it. This is what I want to avoid.

[22:49] <+Bosun> Can we add ethics into it?

[22:50] <+BradyMobile> Purely ethical grounds scares me.

[22:50] <@teamcoltra> Why are they exclusive of each other?

[22:50] <+jake> if value 6 can be reworded as a commitment to earnest and sincere policymaking based on what we feel is the best
course of action

[22:50] <@teamcoltra> if you are helping people and you can prove it, then you are doing what's most ethical

[22:50] <+jake> haha

[22:50] <+mildbeard> Let me take a long hard look at the wording of value 6, taking this concern into account, and come back with a
proposed rewording.

[22:50] <+jake> then Monsanto is a saint

[22:50] <+jake> :-)

[22:50] <+jake> ccause they own lots of research labs

[22:51] <+jake> that specialize in making proof of thingas

[22:51] <+BradyMobile> In the short run, maybe.

[22:51] <+BradyMobile> But the party is holistic

[22:51] <+jake> I agree with mildbeard

[22:51] <+Zacqary> Monsanto's very good at sounding like they know what the hell they're talking about.

[22:51] <+Zacqary> But not actually.

[22:51] <+jake> we should take up this debate at a later date when we have actual amendment wording

[22:52] <+jake> can we move to the second issue?

[22:52] <@teamcoltra> So we will come back to issue 1

[22:52] <+mildbeard> yes

[22:52] <@teamcoltra> lets move on

[22:52] <+jake> alright, the proposed added value

[22:52] <+jake> We believe in a progressive government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of
democracy, including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet.

[22:53] <+Zacqary> Again, I don't see how that's not a logical conclusion of the values we already have.

[22:53] <+jake> this is definitely part of CPP's core structure. We'd like to see something like it in the national language

[22:53] <+jake> it may be a logical conclusion

[22:53] <+jake> but its not said in any of the other values...

[22:53] <+mildbeard> There shouldn't be any sort of problem with the parts about health care, the Internet, and education.

[22:54] <+Zacqary> The values aren't supposed to dictate platform points.

[22:54] <+mildbeard> except that...

[22:54] <+jake> there is nothing in the values as stated that implies governmental responsibility to the citizens to provide
infrastructure and services

[22:55] <+mildbeard> So is there anyone right now on the PNC who would have a problem with government spending on health care, and
with terms like "social institutions", "progressive government" and so on?

[22:56] <+BradyMobile> I have an issue with the term progressive.

[22:56] <+jake> that can be omitted if the rest stands

[22:56] <+BradyMobile> It can be defined in non-pirate ways.

[22:56] <+mildbeard> BradyMobile, can you explain?

[22:57] <+jake> We believe in a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of democracy,
including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet.

[22:57] <+BradyMobile> I do believe certain republican factions have also stated using the word.

[22:57] <+Bosun> I would prefer 'support' or 'advocate for' rather than 'belive in'

[22:58] <+jake> either is fine

[22:58] <+jake> 'stand for' is the preferred term in constitution as written

[22:58] == QuazarGuy [~QuazarGuy@66.80.tw.hr] has joined #pnc

[22:58] <+mildbeard> OK, but BradyMobile do you have an underlying issue with any of the concepts or is it just the word "progressive"?

[22:58] <+Bosun> OK

[22:58] <+Zacqary> I have a problem with terms in general. The more used a term is, the more I say we should avoid saying it. Because words like "progressive" have a zillion different definitions, some good, some pejorative, none consistent.

[22:58] <+jake> "We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of democracy, including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet."

[22:59] <+MrSquared> Aight guys, I have to go

[22:59] == MrSquared [webchat@65.182.wky.sjn] has quit []

[22:59] <+Bosun> universall access ...

[22:59] <+jake> I like that

[23:00] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutionsnecessary for the broader goals of democracy, including
but not limited to health care, education, and universal access to the Internet.

[23:00] <+Zacqary> I agree with that entirely, Jake, but that's too specific for a value.

[23:00] <+mildbeard> I am worried that health care, education and internet access are not values but specific policies. I think we
need a core value that expresses the underlying idea (which is very important) but just naming the policies may not quite capture
the essential point.

[23:01] <+BradyMobile> I agree with mildbeard on this.

[23:01] <+Zacqary> Something about empowerment, maybe?

[23:01] <+jake> thats fine. Then I propose we keep the first sentence and expand from there

[23:01] <+BradyMobile> What about 'humanism'?

[23:01] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutionsnecessary forthe broader goals of democracy

[23:01] <+mildbeard> When we talk about health care, education and Internet access we are really saying that everyone is equally important and it's not acceptable that the few should be lying on golden beds while too many are starving.

[23:01] <+Zacqary> Even democracy I'd say is too specific, because that implies a specific system of government.

[23:02] <+jake> oh come on :P

[23:02] <+jake> thats too far

[23:02] <+mildbeard> I agree with Zacqary on that,

[23:02] <+Zacqary> Well, Falkvinge's with me on that one.

[23:02] <+jake> our party seems tied to the idea of democracy

[23:02] <+jake> how can we not be?

[23:02] <+Zacqary> http://falkvinge.net/pirate-wheel Democracy's in like Tier 3

[23:02] <+Zacqary> Because democracy just happens to be the best tool for the job we can think of right now.

[23:03] <+Zacqary> Operative word being tool.

[23:03] <+Zacqary> We choose the best tools to achieve our goals. We don't make tools goals in and of themselves.

[23:03] <+mildbeard> The "health care issue" is not so much about medicine as about equality. In some ways we have a great health
care system but too many people don't have access to it. We don't need to improve health care as such, just to make it universally accessible. It is an equality issue.

[23:04] <QuazarGuy> at the core, the Pirate Party is a civil right movement

[23:04] <+Zacqary> It's also a resilience issue. Society falls apart unless everyone's healthy. Come to think of it, I don't think
we fully cover resilience in the values.

[23:04] <+Zacqary> Or maybe we do because of value 6.

[23:04] <+Zacqary> What works best.

[23:04] <+jake> I thought so too QuazarGuy

[23:05] <+Zacqary> So let's say "civil rights" instead of "democracy"?

[23:06] <+jake> but that's not what we mean

[23:06] <+Zacqary> Citizen empowerment?

[23:06] <QuazarGuy> they aren't really interchangable

[23:06] <+Zacqary> How's that?

[23:06] <+jake> I suppose we could say citizen empowerment...but id really rather just say democracy

[23:06] <+mildbeard> I think we need to have a strong underlying core value about equality that says everyone is equally important
and we need a government that values the basic welfare of every citizen equally. And then we can adopt specific policies for things like health care, education, Internet and many other things that would support that value. Even affirmative action.

[23:06] <QuazarGuy> civil rights are freedom, democracy is a method of control

[23:06] <+Zacqary> We have equality in there.

[23:07] <+mildbeard> Zacqary yes we do, but it's not enough as it stands.

[23:07] <+jake> we have equality expressed in terms of NEGATIVE rights. The government will treat all people the same. the
government won't allow discrimination. What we need is an affirmation of POSITIVE rights. the gov will act to level the playing field.

[23:07] <+mildbeard> it does say a level playing field.

[23:07] <+jake> the gov will provide health care to the poor; will get internet to places that dont have it

[23:07] <+Zacqary> "We believe in equality and a level playing field."

[23:08] <+Bosun> We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment of the people, a society
were the humblest and weakest person

[23:08] <+Bosun> can enjoy the highest civil, economic, and social rights that the

[23:08] <+Bosun> biggest and most powerful possess.

[23:08] <+Zacqary> LOVE IT.

[23:08] <@kusanagi> yes!

[23:08] <+mildbeard> I think that's much closer to the mark.

[23:08] <+Bosun> Its a hashed A. Philip Randolph quote

[23:09] <+Zacqary> Honestly, what we have there is enough for me, but I'd be willing to add that ninth value just to make it more
rock-solid and leave less to interpretation.

[23:09] <+Zacqary> Do you like Bosun's wording, jake?

[23:09] <QuazarGuy> add political to it

[23:10] <+jake> I like the first part

[23:10] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary forthe empowerment of the people"

[23:10] <+Zacqary> So just that?

[23:11] <QuazarGuy> for the equal empowerment?

[23:11] <+jake> the second part doesn't fully make sense to me. cause we're not saying everyone is entitled to the best health
care, or the best internet, that all people should have the same economic privileges

[23:11] <+jake> we're not anti-capitalists

[23:12] <+mildbeard> That's a good point.

[23:12] <+jake> but the state should provide a minimum for its people...the idea of programs like medicaid and education grants is not to make society wholly level, but to provide safety nets

[23:12] <QuazarGuy> there should just be a floor that no one can fall below

[23:12] == teamcoltra [~travis_mc@168.sub-27-541-586.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]

[23:12] <+Bosun> rights do not equal economic equity

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[23:13] <+mildbeard> The enumeration of specific policies is generally out of scope for the Constitution. For example we are all
about Copyright, but we don't mention it in the Constitution. We say "open culture". That's why I'm uncomfortable with words like "health care" and "education".

[23:13] <+Zacqary> Can we please ban the word "capitalism"? Also "socialism". They've lost all meaning.

[23:14] <@kusanagi> i don't think we can bar words from being used.

[23:14] <+Bosun> How about: We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment of all the people

[23:14] <+Zacqary> It's a figure of speech.

[23:15] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment of all people" is fine with me

[23:15] <@kusanagi> I like that as well.

[23:15] <+jake> can we say empowerment, health, and well-being of all people?

[23:16] <@kusanagi> we can say whatever you will agree on.

[23:16] <+jake> well thats what I would like :-)

[23:16] <@kusanagi> also, as travis pinged out, i'm stepping up as chair

[23:16] <+mildbeard> cool

[23:16] <+jake> anyway those are the CPPs two concerns

[23:16] <+jake> we dont have to vote about either now

[23:17] <+jake> there are also minor linguistic issues which we could ratify in spite of and address at a later date

[23:17] <+Zacqary> How many ratifying members are here right now?

[23:17] <@kusanagi> Ok.

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[23:17] == mode/#pnc [+o teamcoltra] by ChanServ

[23:17] <QuazarGuy> the states will members will need more time to make sure their states agree

[23:17] <@kusanagi> Ok, he's back

[23:17] <+Zacqary> Oh right that

[23:18] <QuazarGuy> the members*

[23:18] <+Zacqary> Okay, let's not vote right now.

[23:18] <Sacha> All full members can vote until the six months is up, a reminder from what we found in the logs earlier

[23:18] <Sacha> Full member =/= ratifying yet

[23:19] <+Zacqary> So the wording we need to take back to our states is: "We stand for a government that promotes social
institutions necessary for the empowerment, health, and well-being of all people." Correct?

[23:19] <+jake> yup

[23:19] <+Bosun> Seems like it ...

[23:19] <+jake> and we also want to come up with some kind of revised text for 6

[23:20] <+Zacqary> I'd be willing to strike the "scientific reasoning" portion of that but keep "evidence". I mean, evidence isn't
a bad thing, right?

[23:20] <+Zacqary> Also maybe strike "the person who does the best job" just to avoid confusion re: affirmative action.

[23:21] <+jake> there's enough of it that warrants change that I dont think we're gonna come up with an agreed wording on this one
just now

[23:21] <+jake> lets just try to come up with some kind of proposal for next week

[23:21] <+Zacqary> Okay.

[23:22] <+Zacqary> Anything else?

[23:23] <+jake> thats all from me

[23:24] <+Zacqary> So is it AOB time, Cap'n?

[23:25] <@teamcoltra> yes

[23:25] <+Bosun> #usahcc is the US ad hoc Convention Committee

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[23:27] <@teamcoltra> Anything else that needs to be discussed?

[23:28] <@teamcoltra> or anyone want to motion to adjourn?

[23:29] <+Zacqary> Motion to adjourn.

[23:29] <+mildbeard> second

[23:29] <@teamcoltra> in favour?

[23:29] <+Zacqary> Aye

[23:29] <Deamon> aye

[23:29] <+Bosun> aye

[23:30] <+mildbeard> aye

[23:30] <@teamcoltra> Well we failed quorum

[23:30] <@teamcoltra> but it's alright

[23:31] <@teamcoltra> meeting adjourned

PNC 8/22/12

2012-08-29T20:32:04Z

Kusanagi: /* 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC */

:'''Agenda PNC MEETING'''
::'''--- 08/22/2012 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/22/12

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*In Attendance:
**Jake Ziering, California
**Kyle DeVore, Oregon
**Zacqary Adam Green, New York
**Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin
**Jarod Smith, Georgia
**Bradley Hall, Florida
**Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts
**Brady Dibble, Washington

*excused
**none

*unexcused
**none

*probation
**Oklahoma, 6th week

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====

*James Eastman Jr., Michigan
*Cullen Matthews, Illinois
*Benjamin Sauerhaft Coplon, Pennsylvania

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====
**Travis McCrea, ID, Captain
**Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, First Mate
**Amanda Johnson, MI, Acting Secretary at the request of Jeff Talada, WA, Secretary

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting opened at: 09:00pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting closed at: 11:31pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting chaired by Travis McCrea/Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Secretary for this meeting is Amanda Johnson
*Quorum is established: Members 8 out of 8 present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===
====4.1 - Short report of the board members ====

=====Massachusetts=====
Liquid feedback is going well and there are a few alpha testers. New Hampshire now has a state party.

=====Washington=====
No news

=====Oregon=====
Working on recruiting friends and making a facebook page.

=====Georgia====
No news

=====Florida=====
Kicking butt and taking names. Starting to work on No Safe Harbor 2 and working on getting ahold of florida.pirate-party.us.

=====New York=====
No news

=====California=====
Working on music project and internships. The Pirate Hour is hosting a prominent libertarian this week and California has a few reservations about the PNC constitution that will be discussed later in the meeting.

=====Wisconsin=====
Tweeting and getting support on facebook. Continuing to work on web infrastructure.

==== 4.2 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====
No news

=====Bylaws Committee=====
There is a rough draft of the by laws available at 'https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k6HyleGs_5009RlEgxW-wXmh4zSZeCJo1zBJkzTRoW8/edit?pli=1'

Voting on the bylaws will be held next week. The bylaws committee will add a specific date to the bylaws.

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===

==== 5.1 ad-hoc Convention Committee ====
Motion to create a convention committe
Passed with 5.5 aye
Chaired by Boson

==== 5.2 California's concerns about the Constitution ====
Problem 1: The strictly science based approach to decision making.
Discussion will be moved to another time after a proposed amendment has been created.

Problem 2: Expanding the core values to include health care, education and access to the internet.
Representatives will take this amendment "We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment, health, and well-being of all people," back to their states for discussion and voting next week.

=== - AOB - ===

Motion to adjourn meeting
Quorum failed, captain ended the meeting anyway.

*Next meeting: TBA at 9PM EDT
*Meeting closed:11:31 pm

Log:
[21:00] <@teamcoltra> I call the meeting to order lets do roll call

[21:01] <Deamon> James Eastman Jr., Michigan

[21:01] == LolItsAnAcronym [~Fagulox@298-730-783-26.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #pnc

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v Deamon] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <MrSquared> Kyle DeVore, Oregon

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v MrSquared] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <jake> jake ziering, california

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v jake] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <CullenMatthews> CullenMatthews, Illinois

[21:01] <Zacqary> Zacqary Adam Green, New York

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v CullenMatthews] by teamcoltra

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v Zacqary] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <+Deamon> again, pretty sure Michigan doesn't get voice since it's observer status

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [-v Deamon] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <Bosun> Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin

[21:02] == mode/#pnc [+v Bosun] by teamcoltra

[21:02] <Deamon> thank you

[21:02] <passstab> kbenjamin sauerhaft coplon Pennsylvania

[21:03] <Sacha> Amanda Johnson, Michigan. Deamon is the rep tonight.

[21:03] <@teamcoltra> So tonight's meeting has 5 out of 8 states present

[21:03] <@kusanagi> Lindsay-Anne Brunner, New York.

[21:04] <@teamcoltra> Sacha you are tonights Quartermaster at the request of Jeffery Talada

[21:04] <@teamcoltra> if you accept the responsibility

[21:04] == LolItsAnAcronym [~Fagulox@298-730-783-26.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]

[21:04] <Sacha> I accept and am on time this week ;)

[21:04] <@teamcoltra> Sweet. So then lets review last weeks minutes http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12

[21:05] <@teamcoltra> Once you have read and accepted last weeks minutes just say so

[21:05] <jarod_> Jarod Smith GA

[21:06] == mode/#pnc [+v jarod_] by teamcoltra

[21:06] <+Bosun> read and accepted

[21:06] <Deamon> Read

[21:06] <+jake> read and accepted

[21:06] <Rush> Bradley Hall, Florida

[21:07] <+CullenMatthews> read and accepted

[21:07] <+MrSquared> read and accepted

[21:07] <Rush> accepted and read

[21:07] == mode/#pnc [+v Brendan] by teamcoltra

[21:07] == mode/#pnc [-v Brendan] by teamcoltra

[21:07] <+Zacqary> Read and accepted

[21:07] == mode/#pnc [+v Rush] by teamcoltra

[21:08] <@teamcoltra> Okay let's do reports. Oregon is up first

[21:09] <mildbeard> Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts

[21:09] <@teamcoltra> MrSquared

[21:09] == mode/#pnc [+v mildbeard] by teamcoltra

[21:09] <+MrSquared> Yep, one sec

[21:10] <@teamcoltra> ( mildbeard I will go to you next )

[21:10] <+MrSquared> I am still in process in making a facebook page for ORPP, and I am going to update our website to have
important information as well

[21:10] <+MrSquared> also I am looking to recruit one of my friends to help me out with this stuff

[21:10] <+MrSquared> that's all

[21:11] <@teamcoltra> Thanks MrSquared

[21:11] <@teamcoltra> mildbeard - Whats up with Mass?

[21:11] <+mildbeard> Our liquid feedback testing has gone well as far as I can see.

[21:11] <+mildbeard> We have a "Massachusetts" section but we also have a "United States" section and a few alpha testers from
outside of Mass volunteered to help.

[21:12] <+mildbeard> There is now a New Hampshire Pirate Party.

[21:12] <+mildbeard> Both Jamie and I have been away so there's not much to report.

[21:12] == mode/#pnc [-v CullenMatthews] by teamcoltra

[21:12] <+mildbeard> that's it for Mass.

[21:12] <@kusanagi> Yay NH!

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> I have been talking to NH Pirates, dave (right?) seems to have a good plan

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> Thanks

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> Chris

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> not dave

[21:13] <+mildbeard> yep

[21:13] <+mildbeard> Chris helped found MAPP.

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> Georiga / jarod_

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[21:13] <@teamcoltra> your up

[21:14] <+jarod_> no news

[21:14] <@teamcoltra> Brad/Rush Florida

[21:15] <+Rush> In Florida we are kicking butt and taking names. We're preparing to start actually working on NSH2 in a few weeks.
We also were able to talk to Chris Sheats long enough to take control of florida.pirate-party.us. Other than that, we're rocking.

[21:15] <+Rush> Done

[21:15] <@teamcoltra> :) Thanks Rush

[21:16] <@teamcoltra> New York / Zacqary

[21:16] <+Zacqary> Nothing to report. Unless I'm missing something, kusanagi?

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> jake you will be up if kusanagi has nothing else

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> Okay well since she's not replying

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> go ahead jake

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> whats going on in California

[21:19] <+jake> we don't have quite so much this week :) We're continuing work on our music project and internship proposals; we
have a pirate hour this thursday with a prominent libertarian who we get to debate about some points of disagreement; and we've gone over the constitution and have some suggestions for potential revisions

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[21:19] <+jake> if you're interested in either attending the pirate hour or being part of the music project, shoot an email to calpirateparty@gmail.co

[21:19] <+jake> m

[21:19] <+jake> done

[21:20] <@teamcoltra> Thanks jake

[21:20] <@teamcoltra> Bosun / Cheese State

[21:20] <+Bosun> Slow backend work on our web infrastructure. Tweeting our brains out. Upward trends continue on FB. Too many
students and teacher members here preparing for school. Nothing else to report this week.

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[21:21] <@teamcoltra> Sweet, thanks Bosun

[21:21] <@teamcoltra> Now is Caleb not here, or using a screenname that I don't recognize?

[21:22] <@teamcoltra> Okay I am assuming not, passstab or anyone else who is familliar with IT want to say anything?

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[21:22] <@teamcoltra> matuck- maybe?

[21:23] <@kusanagi> He's here

[21:23] <@kusanagi> Takyoji[mobile]: IT!

[21:23] <Deamon> Beuller?

[21:23] <passstab> whoa i'm familiar with IT?

[21:23] <@teamcoltra> I thought you were doing a project in IT

[21:23] <@kusanagi> Apparently not lol

[21:23] <@teamcoltra> :P I am just trying to get anyone who has anything to report on IT at all... but it looks like we will come
back to it

[21:24] <@teamcoltra> Bylaws Committee - I know Sacha sent an email to the SAB so I will let her start

[21:25] <Sacha> Yay!

[21:25] <Sacha> I made up some by laws and sent them on the SAB list

[21:25] <Sacha> http://piratepad.net/QARAiTYdmT

[21:25] <Sacha> Here they are, I hope everyone was able to take a look at them

[21:25] <Sacha> and i'm not sure if we are going to discuss them now or... what we are going to do with them

[21:25] <Sacha> but they exist

[21:26] <Sacha> and that is all I plan on putting in there right now

[21:26] <Sacha> so... whatever El capitan wants to do I am down with

[21:26] <@teamcoltra> Did you set out an election bylaw? ie when elections will be held?

[21:26] <Sacha> No, we agree on two months prior right?

[21:27] <Sacha> For some reason I thought that was a constitutional amendment

[21:27] <Sacha> ~*adding*~

[21:27] <@teamcoltra> It was a constitutional amendment

[21:27] <@teamcoltra> which we set the requirement to have a bylaw dictating the time

[21:27] <@teamcoltra> Which is what I have been waiting on since I have no legal framework to call an election

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[21:28] <Sacha> Ahhh okay

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[21:28] <+mildbeard> So is it a simple majority for the PNC to approve the bylaws - whenever we get to that?

[21:28] <+mildbeard> And also a simple majority to amend later?

[21:28] <@teamcoltra> Yeah

[21:28] <@kusanagi> I believe so

[21:29] <+mildbeard> k

[21:29] <@teamcoltra> I would suggest we go through these bylaws and just pass them

[21:29] <@teamcoltra> or not pass them

[21:29] <@teamcoltra> Most of them are basically enforcing the systems that we already have in place

[21:29] <+mildbeard> you mean individually, or all as a group?

[21:29] <+jake> dont we need to pass the constitution before we start bylaws?

[21:29] <Sacha> Jake We already did a few weeks ago

[21:29] <@kusanagi> jake: yeah, I think so.

[21:30] <@kusanagi> No, he means as a state

[21:30] <+Zacqary> Not everyone's ratified it yet.

[21:30] <+jake> I see

[21:30] <+mildbeard> The PNC approved the constitution but member states need to ratify before they can vote on the bylaws.

[21:30] <Sacha> I am confused about how that pertains to the by laws

[21:30] <@teamcoltra> But current members who have ratified the constitution should be able to vote on bylaws

[21:30] <+jake> gotcha

[21:30] <+mildbeard> what about at-large states?

[21:31] <Sacha> Who are the current members? Just for when I am voting so that I can get it down on a notebook

[21:31] <+Zacqary> Also, I'd prefer not to vote on these bylaws yet because I'm still working on some structural frameworks I'd
like to propose.

[21:31] <+Zacqary> I can have these by next week.

[21:31] <Sacha> Mildbeard We have allowed them to vote in the past

[21:31] <+mildbeard> I'm wondering if they have to ratify, is all.

[21:31] <Sacha> I would be fine with allowing people to edit for a week if they have things they wish to change/add

[21:31] <@teamcoltra> Yeah mildbeard I honestly don't know, I was going to just accept their votes... but they have to ratify if
they become full members

[21:32] <@teamcoltra> its required now

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[21:32] <+jake> what is the process for making changes to the constitution at this point?

[21:32] <Sacha> Mildbeard I think it is required for them to become a state party but they are not considered parties so they can
still vote. The ratification is just neccessary to become a full member from my understanding.

[21:32] <Sacha> Jake Making a motion and having I believe a 2/3rds to amend

[21:32] <+mildbeard> OK probably. I'm going to read it just to familiarize myself...

[21:32] <+jake> and I can both make a motion and vote, even before ratifying?

[21:33] <Sacha> How long was the exception we gave states?

[21:33] <@teamcoltra> I would also be willing to accept all states who have not ratified the constitution the same as at-large

[21:33] <@teamcoltra> it's stupid to not let them vote, but let at larges vote

[21:33] <@kusanagi> teamcoltra: that's what we've been doing, iirc.

[21:33] <Sacha> I thought that was how we were going to do it lol, they would just become glorified at larges

[21:34] <@teamcoltra> Exactly

[21:34] <@teamcoltra> I just don't think it's come up where I have had to do that

[21:34] <+Bosun> To further discussion, Wisconsin is willing to act as a conduit for any non ratified state who wishes to make a
motion.

[21:34] <Sacha> How long was the exception?

[21:34] <+jake> alright

[21:34] <Sacha> And how long has it been since we voted on the consitution

[21:35] <@kusanagi> It was 6 months, I believe.

[21:35] <Sacha> also what states are full members so that I can write that down for when I am counting votes

[21:35] <@kusanagi> I could be wrong

[21:36] <@teamcoltra> We accepted it July 25th

[21:36] <@teamcoltra> I thought it was 2 months

[21:36] <+Bosun> Look at the minutes.

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[21:36] <@teamcoltra> I am looking through them now Bosun

[21:37] <Sacha> <+QuazarGuy> "III.2.G. Ratify the PNC Constitution" <+mildbeard> We should add a time frame. <@teamcoltra> Ohh I
see <@teamcoltra> I was thinking, nevermind :P <+mildbeard> "III.2.G Ratify the PNC Constitution within 6 months of its adoption, or prior to the member state's admission, whichever is later."

[21:37] <Sacha> 6 months

[21:37] <Sacha> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_7/25/12

[21:38] <@teamcoltra> Yeah I was just getting to that spot

[21:38] <Sacha> ctrl + f <3

[21:38] <+mildbeard> It doesn't actually say that.

[21:38] <+mildbeard> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/Pirate_National_Committee_%28PNC%29/Constitution#ARTICLE_III:_Membership

[21:38] <Sacha> Yup, it needs to be changed

[21:38] <Sacha> because as I remember Zach wasn't in and we couldn't edit without him

[21:39] <Sacha> Could you add me to the people that can edit that and i'll cross reference the amendments with the wording this
week?

[21:39] <@teamcoltra> I think matuck- gave me editing privilages

[21:39] <@teamcoltra> Do you guys want to pause for a second to update it, or someone just query me and I will do it after

[21:39] <@kusanagi_mobi> We all have editing privs now

[21:39] <+mildbeard> Update it.

[21:39] <+mildbeard> We passed it, and it's important to have it right.

[21:39] <Sacha> Wait to edit it

[21:40] <Sacha> Until we find all of the errors

[21:40] <@teamcoltra> I am just going to update it

[21:40] <Sacha> Do you plan on going through the amendments and stuff or would you like me to and then send the notes to you?

[21:40] <Sacha> Or kusinagi can cuz she is the firstmate or someone else etc.

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> Oh... if there is a big list of things

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> then just compile a list for now

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> I can do it.

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> But just a note

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> Okay thanks kusanagi_mobi

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> We all have editing privs now

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> Anyone with a wiki account

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> Well let's keep going

[21:42] <Sacha> What do we wish to do with the bylaws

[21:43] <Sacha> I believe that is where we were

[21:43] <@teamcoltra> So do we want to pass bylaws or not? I would be in favour of it... otherwise it could be 6 months

[21:43] <+mildbeard> I'm not sure we're ready - maybe give us a week for final comments.

[21:43] <@teamcoltra> Who HAS ratified the Constitution?

[21:43] <+Bosun> Wisconsin

[21:43] <@kusanagi_mobi> NY, MA, WA..

[21:43] <@kusanagi_mobi> WI

[21:43] <+Zacqary> I'd like to wait till next week too because I'm still working on some stuff.

[21:44] <+Zacqary> And I think I'm still committee head, right?

[21:44] <+Zacqary> So.

[21:44] <+Zacqary> Yeah.

[21:44] <@teamcoltra> Zacqary :) Fair enough

[21:44] <Sacha> I am happy with waiting until next week, it will let me make it pretty

[21:44] <Sacha> Do we need a vote or are we good with this?

[21:44] <@teamcoltra> Can you guys include a date for elections (I would suggest September 5th)

[21:44] <@teamcoltra> in your bylaws

[21:44] <Sacha> No

[21:44] <Sacha> Unless it is something like

[21:44] <Sacha> "the second meeting of september"

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> No....

[21:45] <Sacha> or "the second wednesday" etc.

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> We specifically outlined this in the constitution

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> the general date was set in the constitution

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> but the exact date will be set by bylaw

[21:46] <Sacha> So we need to do a specific date

[21:46] <Sacha> Day and everything

[21:46] <@teamcoltra> yes

[21:46] <Sacha> What if the date ends up being on a saturday

[21:46] <Sacha> or a friday though

[21:47] <@kusanagi_mobi> So special meeting

[21:47] <@teamcoltra> It's a bylaw since it's so easy to be fixed every year

[21:47] <Sacha> or a terrible day for people to meet and vote

[21:47] <Sacha> That is so unnecessary though

[21:47] <Sacha> why fix something when we can do it right

[21:47] <Sacha> but we are screwed into it by the constitution

[21:47] <Sacha> I wish I had paid attention to that but nothing to do now I guess

[21:47] <@teamcoltra> You could set the date as "the third monday" or something

[21:47] <Sacha> We'll do it as we are required to do.

[21:47] <@teamcoltra> but it needs to be specific

[21:47] <+mildbeard> What exactly is the wording in the constitution?

[21:48] <Sacha> TeamColtra you mean like "21:45] <Sacha> or "the second wednesday" etc."

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> Sacha sorry I missed that - Yes that would be acceptable

[21:48] <+mildbeard> Can anyone point me to the exact language?

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> mildbeard

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> I am getting it

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> it was 2 weeks ago

[21:49] <Sacha> TeamColtra Kay, we will do it for sure then ^_^

[21:50] <Sacha> Also a quick notice to everyone: Is anyone having problems accessing the google docs? Because it is much more
efficient for the by laws and I would like to switch activity to that document if possible as that is where the editing is taking place.

[21:50] <@teamcoltra> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12#5_-_Agenda_Items

[21:50] <@teamcoltra> Vote held to amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly convention shall
be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws

[21:51] <+mildbeard> So a convention doesn't mean that it's an in-person event?

[21:51] <@teamcoltra> No, it would be an econvention

[21:51] <@teamcoltra> :)

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[21:52] <@teamcoltra> Basically the convention is to elect our leadership and approve a national presidential candidate if needed

[21:52] <+mildbeard> That's pretty flexible language, so the bylaws can use any way of saying what the date is as long as it's
clear.

[21:52] <@teamcoltra> mildbeard that's what I was saying

[21:52] <+mildbeard> and I agree.

[21:53] <@teamcoltra> I made a mistake in saying the bylaws can't say "the second wednesday" or something

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[21:53] <Sacha> Yeah, that is okay though. I am just relieved it can be that.

[21:53] <@teamcoltra> So anyway, Sacha / Zacqary please include something in the bylaws

[21:53] <+mildbeard> kusanagi has us surrounded :)

[21:53] <Sacha> I put it on the agenda so we're good and made a note in my to-do list ^_^

[21:53] <+Zacqary> Will do.

[21:53] <Sacha> So to wrap up the by laws committee

[21:54] <Sacha> We're going to switch to this google doc

[21:54] <Sacha> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k6HyleGs_5009RlEgxW-wXmh4zSZeCJo1zBJkzTRoW8/edit?pli=1#heading=h.5u1huqm6xjta

[21:54] <Sacha> that is the only official place for editing that will be accepted

[21:54] <@kusanagi> mildbeard: sorry, working on fixing something and IRC keeps disconnecting

[21:54] <+Bosun> example from US code : The electors of President and Vice President shall be appointed, in each State, on the
Tuesday next after the first Monday in November, in every fourth year succeeding every election of a President and Vice President.

[21:54] <Sacha> Please comment, ask questions etc. and then we can vote next week. Sound good?

[21:54] <@kusanagi> I really am not comfortable with using a google doc

[21:54] <+mildbeard> np kusanagi just smiling along with you

[21:54] <Sacha> Kusanagi why not

[21:55] <@kusanagi> We should e using piratepad, I think.

[21:55] <@kusanagi> And to restrict us to a Google doc is well, kind of ludicrous.

[21:55] <+Rush> Guys, I need to head out.

[21:55] <+mildbeard> a wiki page would be a good alternative because it tracks history.

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[21:56] <@kusanagi> Oooh, I like that one too, mildbeard

[21:56] <@teamcoltra> piratepad tracks history too

[21:56] <@kusanagi> It should be something we "own"

[21:56] <@kusanagi> A google doc lacks that feeling.

[21:57] <+Zacqary> Google Docs is easier for me, personally, but I can transfer my work to whichever system we need.

[21:57] <+mildbeard> A google doc might have a privacy concern if it wasn't part of our open government transparency.

[21:57] <@teamcoltra> lol you mean like the German pirate pad where your connection is intercpeted by a government line? It's honestly up to Zacqary

[21:57] <@teamcoltra> It's his committee

[21:57] <+Bosun> For continuity can we agree on piratepad?

[21:57] <passstab> kusanagi, is right we should be willing to sacrifice small functionality to use something that is FOSS and respectful of privacy

[21:58] <@teamcoltra> I am going to move on, because it's not a PNC matter - it's a committee issue. Join the committee and decide as a team if you have a preference

[21:58] <+mildbeard> hear, hear.

[21:58] <@teamcoltra> Agenda Items

[21:59] <@teamcoltra> Who was the one who proposed: ad hoc Convention Committee

[21:59] <+Bosun> Twas I

[21:59] <@teamcoltra> Bosun go ahead

[22:00] <+Bosun> I propose the formation of an ad hoc convention committe.

[22:00] <@teamcoltra> With the purpose of?

[22:01] <@teamcoltra> (I am not disagreeing, I am asking for clarity)

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[22:01] <+Bosun> Of organizing our convention.

[22:01] <+mildbeard> Are you referring to the same convention that the bylaws committee has to set the date for?

[22:02] <+Bosun> Yes. …. organizing and publicity.

[22:02] <@teamcoltra> Would they manage voting and such?

[22:03] <+Bosun> We should inform the world that we are having a convention, even if small and even if virtual.

[22:04] <@kusanagi> I don't think a offline convention could be attended by many right now, but yes.

[22:05] <+Bosun> We would need to hatch a plan. It would be unwise to have delegates or candidates count votes. We need to be more
above board than anyone else.

[22:05] <@kusanagi> We should tell everyone, especially in light of the Adbusters thing.

[22:05] <+mildbeard> sure why not.

[22:05] <+Bosun> We need to show that we walk the walk on transparency and democracy.

[22:06] <+Bosun> Even if it is laptops in a hotel room.

[22:06] <@teamcoltra> ;) just keep your webcam off

[22:06] <@teamcoltra> But seriously I agree

[22:06] <@kusanagi> teamcoltra: lol

[22:07] <+jake> ok I vote yes

[22:07] <+jake> lets make a committee

[22:07] <+mildbeard> who would be the committee chair?

[22:07] <@teamcoltra> Okay well can someone make a voteable motion

[22:07] <@teamcoltra> which is very specific

[22:07] <@teamcoltra> if you want the committee to handle voting -- it needs to say that

[22:08] <+mildbeard> I move that the PNC create a convention committee to be responsible for organizing the convention on the date
to be specified in the bylaws, including voting, and to handle any associated publicity and promotions.

[22:09] <+jake> second

[22:09] <@teamcoltra> Do we want further discussion on it?

[22:09] <@teamcoltra> anyone disagree wit that?

[22:09] <@teamcoltra> with*

[22:09] <+Bosun> Yea that works … cuz I am a slow typist

[22:10] <+jake> lets proceed to vote

[22:10] <@teamcoltra> Okay all in favour of the motion the PNC create a convention committee to be responsible for organizing the
convention on the date to be specified in the bylaws, including voting, and to handle any associated publicity and promotions.

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[22:10] <@teamcoltra> Please say aye, all against nay

[22:10] <+jake> aye

[22:10] <+Bosun> aye

[22:10] <+mildbeard> aye

[22:11] <passstab> aye

[22:11] <+Zacqary> Aye

[22:11] <jarod> Aye

[22:11] <@teamcoltra> Okay vote called

[22:12] <@teamcoltra> Sacha can you give the official total

[22:12] <Sacha> 5.5 for I believe

[22:12] <Sacha> my first count so check out my math :I

[22:12] == mode/#pnc [+v jarod] by teamcoltra

[22:12] <@teamcoltra> yes

[22:12] <@teamcoltra> thats righ

[22:13] <@teamcoltra> Okay does anyone want to volunteer to head the committee?

[22:13] <@kusanagi> Honestly, Bosun seems like he understands this well

[22:13] <@kusanagi> maybe?

[22:13] <+Bosun> Yeah … since I proposed it. BTW how do we setup an IRC channel?

[22:14] <+jake> I second Bosun

[22:14] <@kusanagi> Bosun, I can help with that

[22:14] <@teamcoltra> Bosun just join the channel

[22:14] <+Bosun> I would like volunteers.

[22:14] <+mildbeard> Type /join name-of-channel

[22:15] <+Bosun> ahh … ok

[22:15] <@teamcoltra> like if you want to create #boson just /join boson

[22:15] <+Bosun> gotcha

[22:15] <+Bosun> I need to RTFM.

[22:15] <@kusanagi> Bosun, lol

[22:15] <@kusanagi> it happens

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[22:16] <@teamcoltra> Okay so Bosun will head the committee

[22:17] <@teamcoltra> I think we can move on to 5.2

[22:17] <@teamcoltra> jake California's concerns about the Constitution

[22:17] <@teamcoltra> go ahead

[22:18] <+jake> ok

[22:18] <+jake> so there are a variety of suggestions, most of which I would characterise as linguistic

[22:18] <+jake> I could go through them all right now, but I think it would be better to submit a word doc

[22:19] <+jake> there's really two main issues, that make it so at this time we have to say no to ratification

[22:19] <+mildbeard> are there any major issues that would impact ratification?

[22:19] == jarod2 [~yaaic@70.147.pzk.nn] has joined #pnc

[22:19] <+jake> #1

[22:19] <+jake> Article 1 Section 3 "Values"

[22:19] <+jake> Value 6, currently worded as 6. Current Wording: "We are a post-ideological meritocracy. Policy and decision-making
must be based on evidence and scientific reasoning. The approach that works best, or the person who does the best job, must be chosen over the alternatives. Where possible, we avoid making decisions or selecting leaders based on tradition, popularity, authority or ideology"

[22:20] <+jake> we don't like it and would call for its removal altogether

[22:20] <+jake> There are enough elements of this that I find problematic that I would prefer it was done away with entirely. For
one thing, meritocracy is an ideology, and though it claims to be neutral to a bunch of social issues like race, class, gender, etc., it can be convincingly argued that this neutrality supports status quo power structures. As a practical example of this, wouldn't the current wording prevent a pirate from endorsing affirmative ac

[22:20] <+mildbeard> what's the problem with it?

[22:20] <+jake> heehe

[22:21] == jarod [~yaaic@66.87.npi.px] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]

[22:21] <@teamcoltra> jake you got cut off

[22:21] <+jake> doh

[22:21] <+jake> how far

[22:21] <+jake> did it go?

[22:21] <@teamcoltra> California's concerns about the Constitution

[22:21] <@teamcoltra> err

[22:21] <@teamcoltra> t wording prevent a pirate from endorsing affirmative ac

[22:21] <+jake> prevent a pirate from endorsing affirmativeaction? What this plank implies to me is a sort of technocracy, where policymakers seethemselves as carrying out an essentially scientific mission in social and political space. Thisis just not how I view my relationship with politics. My belief in equality, for instance, is notgrounded in pragmatism - it is profoundly ideological.

[22:21] <+jake> If studies were to find that "theapproach that works best" did so in a non-equal manner (say, racial profiling at
airports), Iwould remain opposed to such a thing on principle. If all policy must be based on scientificreasoning, am I disallowed from voting based on principle?

[22:21] <+jake> These questions become evenmore problematic when applied to the last line. Any approach that selects leaders based noton authority or popularity or tradition (or any combination thereof), but rather throughsupposed merit, seems destined to be anti-democratic. These are just a few of the CPP's concerns.

[22:22] <+Bosun> Can you suggest an alternative wording?

[22:22] <+Zacqary> Erik Zoltan wrote that passage, so I wish he were here to comment.

[22:23] <@teamcoltra> If studies that were peer reviewed proved 100% conclusively that some approach works best... than yes... I
would believe we should follow it

[22:23] <+mildbeard> I'm Erik...

[22:23] <+Zacqary> OH

[22:23] <+Zacqary> DERP

[22:23] <+mildbeard> lol

[22:23] <@kusanagi> lol

[22:23] <@kusanagi> a wild zoltan has appeared

[22:23] <+jake> I don't think its modifiable in a way we would agree with.. at least not without such severe modifications that it might as well be done away with entirely, and a new form proposed

[22:24] <+Zacqary> The way I interpret values 6 and 7 are the Hacker Ethic, basically.

[22:24] <+Zacqary> So that's what I suggest we base any rewording on.

[22:24] <+mildbeard> I understand the objections jake has raised. They are serious issues and deserve to be dealt with.

[22:24] <+Zacqary> I do too.

[22:25] <+mildbeard> That said, I'm completely opposed to simply removing this value and leaving nothing in its place.

[22:25] <+Zacqary> As am I.

[22:25] <@teamcoltra> I don't think the Pirate Party should be in the business of making people "feel better", if the science
supports conclusively a platform point... then we need to embrace it

[22:25] <+jake> I would be open to hearing alternate wordings brought forward at a later time - or would happily take back alternate wordings to my people and see what they think.

[22:25] <+mildbeard> We have major parties that actually don't believe in anything, and that have contradictory positions based on nothing more than rhetoric. The point of that value is that we need something more than that.

[22:27] <+mildbeard> On the other hand, it would be possible to take the words in the "values" section (not just this value) and
twist them into something pretty horrible if we had cynical people who didn't know the difference between right and wrong.

[22:27] <@teamcoltra> Btw, California voted in favour of this concept when it was proposed before the constitution was passed.

[22:27] <+Zacqary> People can change their minds after thinking about things.

[22:27] <BradyMobile> Falkvinge's pirate wheel suggests that which is ' necessary, effective, proportionate, and evidence-based'.

[22:27] <+Bosun> Is this the point where we discuss post-modernism?

[22:27] <@teamcoltra> BradyMobile identify please?

[22:28] <+jake> Bosun, I hope not, unless we want our meeting to run on into infintiy

[22:28] <BradyMobile> Brady Dibble, Washington

[22:28] == mode/#pnc [+v BradyMobile] by teamcoltra

[22:28] <+Zacqary> I always thought we were a rather metamodernist party.

[22:28] <+Zacqary> Actually, never mind, let's not get into this.

[22:28] <+Zacqary> Shit shit shit abort.

[22:29] <Deamon> I'm postmetaultrasupermodernist

[22:29] <+mildbeard> So wait, that was only #1 of California's major issues right?

[22:29] <@teamcoltra> I'm a Pirate

[22:29] <+jake> Can we rephrase Value 6 as expressing an openness to dialog and debate about ideas; a willingness to give all people a chance both to be heard and to lead

[22:29] <@teamcoltra> jake you have the option to make a motion on #1

[22:29] <+Zacqary> That's Value 7.

[22:30] <@teamcoltra> though it doesn't seem popular... you can propose an amendment to the constituion

[22:30] <+jake> I dont have wording

[22:30] <@teamcoltra> kk

[22:30] <+Bosun> put the word 'democracy' in it

[22:30] <+jake> here's what I'm saying to mildbeard mostly

[22:30] <@teamcoltra> just wanted you to know that no one can prevent you from making a motion

[22:30] <+jake> If you could take out some of the stronger language in value 6 and roll some language into value 7, I believe you could maintain much of what you're trying to say without making the party seem obsessed with scientific rationality

[22:31] <+Zacqary> Bosun, I think democracy ought to be the logical conclusion of our values, not our values itself. It's a method. If a better system than democracy somehow comes along we should remain open to it.

[22:31] <+jake> that sort of amendment, if proposed and accepted, would allow california to ratify

[22:31] <+jake> I don't have wording for it right now; it should probably be thought about for at least a week

[22:31] <@teamcoltra> jake - It's my belief the party /should/ be obsessed with scientific rationality

[22:32] <+mildbeard> I think we can come up with a wording that would address the concern.

[22:32] <@teamcoltra> maybe not "obsessed" but highly dedicated

[22:32] <@kusanagi> obsessed is a very strong word.

[22:32] <+mildbeard> However I also feel that the concerns really wouldn't be a problem in view of the other core values in the document.

[22:32] <+Bosun> It is a constitution, not stone tablets from god.

[22:32] <+BradyMobile> Belief is a dangerous word.

[22:32] <+Zacqary> I think the problem with scientific rationality is that you have people like the hilariously-named Reason
magazine claiming that as their ideology, and ruining it for all the other actually rational people in the world.

[22:32] <+jake> just to give a counbterpoint to that Travis, here in California we're working with a lot of artists and musicians
who are very excited to be part of the party. that's not a fitting description of them. So I think it might be best for the party to leave room for individual discretiuon, on what we choose to be obsessed with

[22:33] <+jake> at least to a state level

[22:34] <+jake> so we had 1 more concern

[22:34] <+Bosun> Empirical evidence ..

[22:34] <+mildbeard> so there's a specific objection to science and meritocracy in value 6.

[22:34] <+mildbeard> actually post-ideological too.

[22:34] <+jake> this time it's an addition. we feel that the values as written do not expresses the progressive social agenda of
the Pirate Party. If we are going to be the party of the Internet, we need to champion things like access to the Internet, which can be couched in the greater framework of progressivism and social welfare. The CPP has always felt this is at the core of being a pirate.

[22:35] <+jake> so we'd propose the additional value:We believe in a progressive government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of democracy, including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet

[22:35] <+BradyMobile> Scientific reasoning is a neutral tool.

[22:35] <@teamcoltra> jake - to me it seems that California is taking a very "american" view of the word "science".

[22:35] <+BradyMobile> The method can be applied to humanitarian purposes.

[22:35] <+Zacqary> Well, actually, if you look at the numbers, a progressive government IS the approach that works best.

[22:36] <+Zacqary> So..that's value 6 right there.

[22:36] <+Bosun> Do you object to the word scientific or empirical reasoning as a philisophical point?

[22:36] <@teamcoltra> Zacqary exactly

[22:36] <+jake> theres no particular word we object to...

[22:36] <+Zacqary> Jake, I think what you're afraid of is bullshitters cherry-picking statistics and distorting facts rather than
actual hard evidence. Because actual hard evidence supports exactly what you're asking for.

[22:36] <+mildbeard> Well, there's a specific reason why the progressive social issues other than equality weren't proposed for
inclusion in the Constitution, so it makes sense to state what that is.

[22:37] <+jake> what I'm afraid of is not the bullshitters per se; it's the belief in infallible categories of truth like science that permit bullshitters such authority to peddle their bullshit

[22:37] <@teamcoltra> Zacqary lol your on a roll - I will just stay out of your way you are answering everything how I would ;)

[22:37] <+Bosun> Wiki the Wisconsin Idea.

[22:38] <@teamcoltra> True science cannot be bullshitted.

[22:38] <+jake> hard evidence is not a thing when applied to social science

[22:38] <@teamcoltra> It can be backed up

[22:38] <+jake> politics is not geology

[22:38] <@kusanagi> jake is right.

[22:38] <+mildbeard> The Pirate Party is a coalition of at least two very distinct ideologies - one is progressive and the other is
libertarian. There are a lot of libertarians out there who wouldn't be comfortable with a progressive social agenda. I don't know if this is really a problem, but that's why I never proposed to put any social progressive language into the core values.

[22:38] <+jake> I think its hugely irresponsible to be a party based in and around participation through the internet that doesn't take a progressive stance on things like access to the internet

[22:39] <+jake> the libertarian "let people figure out connections for themselves" is simply not appropriate

[22:39] <+mildbeard> Access to the internet is definitely a core value and it's in the pirate wheel. If it's not covered in the core values then we should add it.

[22:39] <+Zacqary> It's one of the conclusions of the Pirate Wheel.

[22:39] <+Zacqary> So it can be in our platform.

[22:39] <@teamcoltra> jake I agree 100% with that... and every paper I have read on Internet access has shown children who have access to internet connections perform better in school

[22:40] <+mildbeard> The Massachusetts Pirate Party is very socially progressive, and we would vote in favor of social progressive policies.

[22:40] <@teamcoltra> Science is a way to combat some of the libertarian social things that are just not founded in truth.

[22:40] <+mildbeard> Hold on, are we talking about item #1 (value 6) or item #2 (add progressive value)?

[22:41] <+BradyMobile> Science can go either way depending on your interpretation of the results.

[22:41] <+jake> neither is being voted on at this time, it's a general discussion of CPP's concerns

[22:41] <+mildbeard> OK but I'm getting confused so I'd like to discuss them separately.

[22:41] <+jake> that makes sense

[22:41] <+jake> lets start with the former

[22:42] <+Bosun> Science is a method not a result.

[22:42] <+jake> Can the language just get toned down? "Policy and decision-making must be based on evidence and scientific
reasoning." is sooo strong. You honestly believe politicians should never do what feels ethically right?

[22:42] <+mildbeard> On item 1 (value 6) I am still not sure that I understand in sufficient detail what California's objection is, in order to be able to propose alternative wording that would solve the problem and still keep the underlying point.

[22:43] <+jake> "The approach that works best, or the person who does the best job, must be chosen over the alternatives." is also
too strong. It prevents one from being in favor of Affirmative Action, for example

[22:43] <+BradyMobile> Ethics are subjective.

[22:43] <+BradyMobile> e.g. Legitimate Rape

[22:43] <+mildbeard> FIrst of all, it absolutely doesn't prevent one from being in favor of affirmative action!!!

[22:44] <+mildbeard> We have a core value 7 which talks about equality. If affirmative action is a good way to promote equality
then it's just fine.

[22:44] <+BradyMobile> If affirmative action is proven to produce the intended result.

[22:44] <+BradyMobile> Not just because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy

[22:45] <+BradyMobile> Mildbeard, was this your intention?

[22:45] <@teamcoltra> Exactly

[22:45] <@teamcoltra> Our policies shouldn't be based on making people feel better

[22:45] <+jake> then the two values contradict. Because in the interest of value 7, we can take someone who is not scientifically speaking the best for the job (in terms of test scores, experience) in favor of someone who benefits the diversity of the program

[22:45] <@teamcoltra> they should be about achieving positive results

[22:45] <+jake> value 6 says we must choose who is best for the job based on science

[22:46] <+Zacqary> The benefit from diversity outweighs the benefit from choosing the absolute best best best best person.

[22:46] <+mildbeard> Here's what we shouldn't do. We shouldn't adopt a policy because we're all liberal, and it makes us feel less
guilty about some people suffering. We should look at all the alternatives and try them out, and go with something that works. In the current political climate, it's "us against them" and as long as we defeat the opposing party it really doesn't seem to matter very much whether we are screwing up people's lives and making the world a horrible place

[22:46] <+mildbeard> If affirmative action works then we should be in favor of it.

[22:46] <+jake> then the wording needs to express our lack of political cynicism

[22:46] <@teamcoltra> Exactly, and if it doesn't... let's find something that actually HELPS minorities.

[22:46] <+mildbeard> If we go with something else, then it's becaus we have found that it is actually a more effective way of
promoting our core value of equality (value 7).

[22:47] <@teamcoltra> (not saying it doesn't, just saying IF it doesn't)

[22:47] <+Bosun> If it works. In some ways it has, but we still have racialy segregated slums.

[22:48] <+jake> the problem is that the debate will continue to rage about the exact science of 'whether or not it works'. because
sociology is not exact science. This is why the CPP believes it is important for us to be able to make decisions on purely ethical grounds

[22:48] <+jake> which value 6 disallows

[22:49] <+mildbeard> The intent of value 6 is not to disallow ethical grounds.

[22:49] <+mildbeard> So we can change that aspect.

[22:49] <+jake> then perhaps it is worded too strongly

[22:49] <@teamcoltra> I don't want to get into the subject too much -- but income based affirmitive action seems to be much more
promising than race based AA. However, by doing away with race based AA you run into the "emotional" impact of removing something you gave to minorities and redistributing it. This is what I want to avoid.

[22:49] <+Bosun> Can we add ethics into it?

[22:50] <+BradyMobile> Purely ethical grounds scares me.

[22:50] <@teamcoltra> Why are they exclusive of each other?

[22:50] <+jake> if value 6 can be reworded as a commitment to earnest and sincere policymaking based on what we feel is the best
course of action

[22:50] <@teamcoltra> if you are helping people and you can prove it, then you are doing what's most ethical

[22:50] <+jake> haha

[22:50] <+mildbeard> Let me take a long hard look at the wording of value 6, taking this concern into account, and come back with a
proposed rewording.

[22:50] <+jake> then Monsanto is a saint

[22:50] <+jake> :-)

[22:50] <+jake> ccause they own lots of research labs

[22:51] <+jake> that specialize in making proof of thingas

[22:51] <+BradyMobile> In the short run, maybe.

[22:51] <+BradyMobile> But the party is holistic

[22:51] <+jake> I agree with mildbeard

[22:51] <+Zacqary> Monsanto's very good at sounding like they know what the hell they're talking about.

[22:51] <+Zacqary> But not actually.

[22:51] <+jake> we should take up this debate at a later date when we have actual amendment wording

[22:52] <+jake> can we move to the second issue?

[22:52] <@teamcoltra> So we will come back to issue 1

[22:52] <+mildbeard> yes

[22:52] <@teamcoltra> lets move on

[22:52] <+jake> alright, the proposed added value

[22:52] <+jake> We believe in a progressive government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of
democracy, including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet.

[22:53] <+Zacqary> Again, I don't see how that's not a logical conclusion of the values we already have.

[22:53] <+jake> this is definitely part of CPP's core structure. We'd like to see something like it in the national language

[22:53] <+jake> it may be a logical conclusion

[22:53] <+jake> but its not said in any of the other values...

[22:53] <+mildbeard> There shouldn't be any sort of problem with the parts about health care, the Internet, and education.

[22:54] <+Zacqary> The values aren't supposed to dictate platform points.

[22:54] <+mildbeard> except that...

[22:54] <+jake> there is nothing in the values as stated that implies governmental responsibility to the citizens to provide
infrastructure and services

[22:55] <+mildbeard> So is there anyone right now on the PNC who would have a problem with government spending on health care, and
with terms like "social institutions", "progressive government" and so on?

[22:56] <+BradyMobile> I have an issue with the term progressive.

[22:56] <+jake> that can be omitted if the rest stands

[22:56] <+BradyMobile> It can be defined in non-pirate ways.

[22:56] <+mildbeard> BradyMobile, can you explain?

[22:57] <+jake> We believe in a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of democracy,
including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet.

[22:57] <+BradyMobile> I do believe certain republican factions have also stated using the word.

[22:57] <+Bosun> I would prefer 'support' or 'advocate for' rather than 'belive in'

[22:58] <+jake> either is fine

[22:58] <+jake> 'stand for' is the preferred term in constitution as written

[22:58] == QuazarGuy [~QuazarGuy@66.80.tw.hr] has joined #pnc

[22:58] <+mildbeard> OK, but BradyMobile do you have an underlying issue with any of the concepts or is it just the word "progressive"?

[22:58] <+Bosun> OK

[22:58] <+Zacqary> I have a problem with terms in general. The more used a term is, the more I say we should avoid saying it. Because words like "progressive" have a zillion different definitions, some good, some pejorative, none consistent.

[22:58] <+jake> "We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of democracy, including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet."

[22:59] <+MrSquared> Aight guys, I have to go

[22:59] == MrSquared [webchat@65.182.wky.sjn] has quit []

[22:59] <+Bosun> universall access ...

[22:59] <+jake> I like that

[23:00] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutionsnecessary for the broader goals of democracy, including
but not limited to health care, education, and universal access to the Internet.

[23:00] <+Zacqary> I agree with that entirely, Jake, but that's too specific for a value.

[23:00] <+mildbeard> I am worried that health care, education and internet access are not values but specific policies. I think we
need a core value that expresses the underlying idea (which is very important) but just naming the policies may not quite capture
the essential point.

[23:01] <+BradyMobile> I agree with mildbeard on this.

[23:01] <+Zacqary> Something about empowerment, maybe?

[23:01] <+jake> thats fine. Then I propose we keep the first sentence and expand from there

[23:01] <+BradyMobile> What about 'humanism'?

[23:01] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutionsnecessary forthe broader goals of democracy

[23:01] <+mildbeard> When we talk about health care, education and Internet access we are really saying that everyone is equally important and it's not acceptable that the few should be lying on golden beds while too many are starving.

[23:01] <+Zacqary> Even democracy I'd say is too specific, because that implies a specific system of government.

[23:02] <+jake> oh come on :P

[23:02] <+jake> thats too far

[23:02] <+mildbeard> I agree with Zacqary on that,

[23:02] <+Zacqary> Well, Falkvinge's with me on that one.

[23:02] <+jake> our party seems tied to the idea of democracy

[23:02] <+jake> how can we not be?

[23:02] <+Zacqary> http://falkvinge.net/pirate-wheel Democracy's in like Tier 3

[23:02] <+Zacqary> Because democracy just happens to be the best tool for the job we can think of right now.

[23:03] <+Zacqary> Operative word being tool.

[23:03] <+Zacqary> We choose the best tools to achieve our goals. We don't make tools goals in and of themselves.

[23:03] <+mildbeard> The "health care issue" is not so much about medicine as about equality. In some ways we have a great health
care system but too many people don't have access to it. We don't need to improve health care as such, just to make it universally accessible. It is an equality issue.

[23:04] <QuazarGuy> at the core, the Pirate Party is a civil right movement

[23:04] <+Zacqary> It's also a resilience issue. Society falls apart unless everyone's healthy. Come to think of it, I don't think
we fully cover resilience in the values.

[23:04] <+Zacqary> Or maybe we do because of value 6.

[23:04] <+Zacqary> What works best.

[23:04] <+jake> I thought so too QuazarGuy

[23:05] <+Zacqary> So let's say "civil rights" instead of "democracy"?

[23:06] <+jake> but that's not what we mean

[23:06] <+Zacqary> Citizen empowerment?

[23:06] <QuazarGuy> they aren't really interchangable

[23:06] <+Zacqary> How's that?

[23:06] <+jake> I suppose we could say citizen empowerment...but id really rather just say democracy

[23:06] <+mildbeard> I think we need to have a strong underlying core value about equality that says everyone is equally important
and we need a government that values the basic welfare of every citizen equally. And then we can adopt specific policies for things like health care, education, Internet and many other things that would support that value. Even affirmative action.

[23:06] <QuazarGuy> civil rights are freedom, democracy is a method of control

[23:06] <+Zacqary> We have equality in there.

[23:07] <+mildbeard> Zacqary yes we do, but it's not enough as it stands.

[23:07] <+jake> we have equality expressed in terms of NEGATIVE rights. The government will treat all people the same. the
government won't allow discrimination. What we need is an affirmation of POSITIVE rights. the gov will act to level the playing field.

[23:07] <+mildbeard> it does say a level playing field.

[23:07] <+jake> the gov will provide health care to the poor; will get internet to places that dont have it

[23:07] <+Zacqary> "We believe in equality and a level playing field."

[23:08] <+Bosun> We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment of the people, a society
were the humblest and weakest person

[23:08] <+Bosun> can enjoy the highest civil, economic, and social rights that the

[23:08] <+Bosun> biggest and most powerful possess.

[23:08] <+Zacqary> LOVE IT.

[23:08] <@kusanagi> yes!

[23:08] <+mildbeard> I think that's much closer to the mark.

[23:08] <+Bosun> Its a hashed A. Philip Randolph quote

[23:09] <+Zacqary> Honestly, what we have there is enough for me, but I'd be willing to add that ninth value just to make it more
rock-solid and leave less to interpretation.

[23:09] <+Zacqary> Do you like Bosun's wording, jake?

[23:09] <QuazarGuy> add political to it

[23:10] <+jake> I like the first part

[23:10] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary forthe empowerment of the people"

[23:10] <+Zacqary> So just that?

[23:11] <QuazarGuy> for the equal empowerment?

[23:11] <+jake> the second part doesn't fully make sense to me. cause we're not saying everyone is entitled to the best health
care, or the best internet, that all people should have the same economic privileges

[23:11] <+jake> we're not anti-capitalists

[23:12] <+mildbeard> That's a good point.

[23:12] <+jake> but the state should provide a minimum for its people...the idea of programs like medicaid and education grants is not to make society wholly level, but to provide safety nets

[23:12] <QuazarGuy> there should just be a floor that no one can fall below

[23:12] == teamcoltra [~travis_mc@168.sub-27-541-586.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]

[23:12] <+Bosun> rights do not equal economic equity

[23:12] == passstab [~emily@xx.pirate] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

[23:13] <+mildbeard> The enumeration of specific policies is generally out of scope for the Constitution. For example we are all
about Copyright, but we don't mention it in the Constitution. We say "open culture". That's why I'm uncomfortable with words like "health care" and "education".

[23:13] <+Zacqary> Can we please ban the word "capitalism"? Also "socialism". They've lost all meaning.

[23:14] <@kusanagi> i don't think we can bar words from being used.

[23:14] <+Bosun> How about: We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment of all the people

[23:14] <+Zacqary> It's a figure of speech.

[23:15] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment of all people" is fine with me

[23:15] <@kusanagi> I like that as well.

[23:15] <+jake> can we say empowerment, health, and well-being of all people?

[23:16] <@kusanagi> we can say whatever you will agree on.

[23:16] <+jake> well thats what I would like :-)

[23:16] <@kusanagi> also, as travis pinged out, i'm stepping up as chair

[23:16] <+mildbeard> cool

[23:16] <+jake> anyway those are the CPPs two concerns

[23:16] <+jake> we dont have to vote about either now

[23:17] <+jake> there are also minor linguistic issues which we could ratify in spite of and address at a later date

[23:17] <+Zacqary> How many ratifying members are here right now?

[23:17] <@kusanagi> Ok.

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[23:17] == mode/#pnc [+o teamcoltra] by ChanServ

[23:17] <QuazarGuy> the states will members will need more time to make sure their states agree

[23:17] <@kusanagi> Ok, he's back

[23:17] <+Zacqary> Oh right that

[23:18] <QuazarGuy> the members*

[23:18] <+Zacqary> Okay, let's not vote right now.

[23:18] <Sacha> All full members can vote until the six months is up, a reminder from what we found in the logs earlier

[23:18] <Sacha> Full member =/= ratifying yet

[23:19] <+Zacqary> So the wording we need to take back to our states is: "We stand for a government that promotes social
institutions necessary for the empowerment, health, and well-being of all people." Correct?

[23:19] <+jake> yup

[23:19] <+Bosun> Seems like it ...

[23:19] <+jake> and we also want to come up with some kind of revised text for 6

[23:20] <+Zacqary> I'd be willing to strike the "scientific reasoning" portion of that but keep "evidence". I mean, evidence isn't
a bad thing, right?

[23:20] <+Zacqary> Also maybe strike "the person who does the best job" just to avoid confusion re: affirmative action.

[23:21] <+jake> there's enough of it that warrants change that I dont think we're gonna come up with an agreed wording on this one
just now

[23:21] <+jake> lets just try to come up with some kind of proposal for next week

[23:21] <+Zacqary> Okay.

[23:22] <+Zacqary> Anything else?

[23:23] <+jake> thats all from me

[23:24] <+Zacqary> So is it AOB time, Cap'n?

[23:25] <@teamcoltra> yes

[23:25] <+Bosun> #usahcc is the US ad hoc Convention Committee

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[23:27] <@teamcoltra> Anything else that needs to be discussed?

[23:28] <@teamcoltra> or anyone want to motion to adjourn?

[23:29] <+Zacqary> Motion to adjourn.

[23:29] <+mildbeard> second

[23:29] <@teamcoltra> in favour?

[23:29] <+Zacqary> Aye

[23:29] <Deamon> aye

[23:29] <+Bosun> aye

[23:30] <+mildbeard> aye

[23:30] <@teamcoltra> Well we failed quorum

[23:30] <@teamcoltra> but it's alright

[23:31] <@teamcoltra> meeting adjourned

PNC 8/22/12

2012-08-29T20:31:42Z

Kusanagi: /* 1.1 - Members of the PNC */

:'''Agenda PNC MEETING'''
::'''--- 08/22/2012 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/22/12

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*In Attendance:
**Jake Ziering, California
**Kyle DeVore, Oregon
**Zacqary Adam Green, New York
**Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin
**Jarod Smith, Georgia
**Bradley Hall, Florida
**Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts
**Brady Dibble, Washington

*excused
**none

*unexcused
**none

*probation
**Oklahoma, 6th week

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====

**James Eastman Jr., Michigan
**Cullen Matthews, Illinois
**Benjamin Sauerhaft Coplon, Pennsylvania

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====
**Travis McCrea, ID, Captain
**Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, First Mate
**Amanda Johnson, MI, Acting Secretary at the request of Jeff Talada, WA, Secretary

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting opened at: 09:00pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting closed at: 11:31pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting chaired by Travis McCrea/Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Secretary for this meeting is Amanda Johnson
*Quorum is established: Members 8 out of 8 present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===
====4.1 - Short report of the board members ====

=====Massachusetts=====
Liquid feedback is going well and there are a few alpha testers. New Hampshire now has a state party.

=====Washington=====
No news

=====Oregon=====
Working on recruiting friends and making a facebook page.

=====Georgia====
No news

=====Florida=====
Kicking butt and taking names. Starting to work on No Safe Harbor 2 and working on getting ahold of florida.pirate-party.us.

=====New York=====
No news

=====California=====
Working on music project and internships. The Pirate Hour is hosting a prominent libertarian this week and California has a few reservations about the PNC constitution that will be discussed later in the meeting.

=====Wisconsin=====
Tweeting and getting support on facebook. Continuing to work on web infrastructure.

==== 4.2 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====
No news

=====Bylaws Committee=====
There is a rough draft of the by laws available at 'https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k6HyleGs_5009RlEgxW-wXmh4zSZeCJo1zBJkzTRoW8/edit?pli=1'

Voting on the bylaws will be held next week. The bylaws committee will add a specific date to the bylaws.

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===

==== 5.1 ad-hoc Convention Committee ====
Motion to create a convention committe
Passed with 5.5 aye
Chaired by Boson

==== 5.2 California's concerns about the Constitution ====
Problem 1: The strictly science based approach to decision making.
Discussion will be moved to another time after a proposed amendment has been created.

Problem 2: Expanding the core values to include health care, education and access to the internet.
Representatives will take this amendment "We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment, health, and well-being of all people," back to their states for discussion and voting next week.

=== - AOB - ===

Motion to adjourn meeting
Quorum failed, captain ended the meeting anyway.

*Next meeting: TBA at 9PM EDT
*Meeting closed:11:31 pm

Log:
[21:00] <@teamcoltra> I call the meeting to order lets do roll call

[21:01] <Deamon> James Eastman Jr., Michigan

[21:01] == LolItsAnAcronym [~Fagulox@298-730-783-26.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #pnc

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v Deamon] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <MrSquared> Kyle DeVore, Oregon

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v MrSquared] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <jake> jake ziering, california

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v jake] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <CullenMatthews> CullenMatthews, Illinois

[21:01] <Zacqary> Zacqary Adam Green, New York

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v CullenMatthews] by teamcoltra

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v Zacqary] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <+Deamon> again, pretty sure Michigan doesn't get voice since it's observer status

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [-v Deamon] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <Bosun> Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin

[21:02] == mode/#pnc [+v Bosun] by teamcoltra

[21:02] <Deamon> thank you

[21:02] <passstab> kbenjamin sauerhaft coplon Pennsylvania

[21:03] <Sacha> Amanda Johnson, Michigan. Deamon is the rep tonight.

[21:03] <@teamcoltra> So tonight's meeting has 5 out of 8 states present

[21:03] <@kusanagi> Lindsay-Anne Brunner, New York.

[21:04] <@teamcoltra> Sacha you are tonights Quartermaster at the request of Jeffery Talada

[21:04] <@teamcoltra> if you accept the responsibility

[21:04] == LolItsAnAcronym [~Fagulox@298-730-783-26.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]

[21:04] <Sacha> I accept and am on time this week ;)

[21:04] <@teamcoltra> Sweet. So then lets review last weeks minutes http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12

[21:05] <@teamcoltra> Once you have read and accepted last weeks minutes just say so

[21:05] <jarod_> Jarod Smith GA

[21:06] == mode/#pnc [+v jarod_] by teamcoltra

[21:06] <+Bosun> read and accepted

[21:06] <Deamon> Read

[21:06] <+jake> read and accepted

[21:06] <Rush> Bradley Hall, Florida

[21:07] <+CullenMatthews> read and accepted

[21:07] <+MrSquared> read and accepted

[21:07] <Rush> accepted and read

[21:07] == mode/#pnc [+v Brendan] by teamcoltra

[21:07] == mode/#pnc [-v Brendan] by teamcoltra

[21:07] <+Zacqary> Read and accepted

[21:07] == mode/#pnc [+v Rush] by teamcoltra

[21:08] <@teamcoltra> Okay let's do reports. Oregon is up first

[21:09] <mildbeard> Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts

[21:09] <@teamcoltra> MrSquared

[21:09] == mode/#pnc [+v mildbeard] by teamcoltra

[21:09] <+MrSquared> Yep, one sec

[21:10] <@teamcoltra> ( mildbeard I will go to you next )

[21:10] <+MrSquared> I am still in process in making a facebook page for ORPP, and I am going to update our website to have
important information as well

[21:10] <+MrSquared> also I am looking to recruit one of my friends to help me out with this stuff

[21:10] <+MrSquared> that's all

[21:11] <@teamcoltra> Thanks MrSquared

[21:11] <@teamcoltra> mildbeard - Whats up with Mass?

[21:11] <+mildbeard> Our liquid feedback testing has gone well as far as I can see.

[21:11] <+mildbeard> We have a "Massachusetts" section but we also have a "United States" section and a few alpha testers from
outside of Mass volunteered to help.

[21:12] <+mildbeard> There is now a New Hampshire Pirate Party.

[21:12] <+mildbeard> Both Jamie and I have been away so there's not much to report.

[21:12] == mode/#pnc [-v CullenMatthews] by teamcoltra

[21:12] <+mildbeard> that's it for Mass.

[21:12] <@kusanagi> Yay NH!

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> I have been talking to NH Pirates, dave (right?) seems to have a good plan

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> Thanks

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> Chris

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> not dave

[21:13] <+mildbeard> yep

[21:13] <+mildbeard> Chris helped found MAPP.

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> Georiga / jarod_

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[21:13] <@teamcoltra> your up

[21:14] <+jarod_> no news

[21:14] <@teamcoltra> Brad/Rush Florida

[21:15] <+Rush> In Florida we are kicking butt and taking names. We're preparing to start actually working on NSH2 in a few weeks.
We also were able to talk to Chris Sheats long enough to take control of florida.pirate-party.us. Other than that, we're rocking.

[21:15] <+Rush> Done

[21:15] <@teamcoltra> :) Thanks Rush

[21:16] <@teamcoltra> New York / Zacqary

[21:16] <+Zacqary> Nothing to report. Unless I'm missing something, kusanagi?

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> jake you will be up if kusanagi has nothing else

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> Okay well since she's not replying

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> go ahead jake

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> whats going on in California

[21:19] <+jake> we don't have quite so much this week :) We're continuing work on our music project and internship proposals; we
have a pirate hour this thursday with a prominent libertarian who we get to debate about some points of disagreement; and we've gone over the constitution and have some suggestions for potential revisions

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[21:19] <+jake> if you're interested in either attending the pirate hour or being part of the music project, shoot an email to calpirateparty@gmail.co

[21:19] <+jake> m

[21:19] <+jake> done

[21:20] <@teamcoltra> Thanks jake

[21:20] <@teamcoltra> Bosun / Cheese State

[21:20] <+Bosun> Slow backend work on our web infrastructure. Tweeting our brains out. Upward trends continue on FB. Too many
students and teacher members here preparing for school. Nothing else to report this week.

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[21:21] <@teamcoltra> Sweet, thanks Bosun

[21:21] <@teamcoltra> Now is Caleb not here, or using a screenname that I don't recognize?

[21:22] <@teamcoltra> Okay I am assuming not, passstab or anyone else who is familliar with IT want to say anything?

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[21:22] <@teamcoltra> matuck- maybe?

[21:23] <@kusanagi> He's here

[21:23] <@kusanagi> Takyoji[mobile]: IT!

[21:23] <Deamon> Beuller?

[21:23] <passstab> whoa i'm familiar with IT?

[21:23] <@teamcoltra> I thought you were doing a project in IT

[21:23] <@kusanagi> Apparently not lol

[21:23] <@teamcoltra> :P I am just trying to get anyone who has anything to report on IT at all... but it looks like we will come
back to it

[21:24] <@teamcoltra> Bylaws Committee - I know Sacha sent an email to the SAB so I will let her start

[21:25] <Sacha> Yay!

[21:25] <Sacha> I made up some by laws and sent them on the SAB list

[21:25] <Sacha> http://piratepad.net/QARAiTYdmT

[21:25] <Sacha> Here they are, I hope everyone was able to take a look at them

[21:25] <Sacha> and i'm not sure if we are going to discuss them now or... what we are going to do with them

[21:25] <Sacha> but they exist

[21:26] <Sacha> and that is all I plan on putting in there right now

[21:26] <Sacha> so... whatever El capitan wants to do I am down with

[21:26] <@teamcoltra> Did you set out an election bylaw? ie when elections will be held?

[21:26] <Sacha> No, we agree on two months prior right?

[21:27] <Sacha> For some reason I thought that was a constitutional amendment

[21:27] <Sacha> ~*adding*~

[21:27] <@teamcoltra> It was a constitutional amendment

[21:27] <@teamcoltra> which we set the requirement to have a bylaw dictating the time

[21:27] <@teamcoltra> Which is what I have been waiting on since I have no legal framework to call an election

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[21:28] <Sacha> Ahhh okay

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[21:28] <+mildbeard> So is it a simple majority for the PNC to approve the bylaws - whenever we get to that?

[21:28] <+mildbeard> And also a simple majority to amend later?

[21:28] <@teamcoltra> Yeah

[21:28] <@kusanagi> I believe so

[21:29] <+mildbeard> k

[21:29] <@teamcoltra> I would suggest we go through these bylaws and just pass them

[21:29] <@teamcoltra> or not pass them

[21:29] <@teamcoltra> Most of them are basically enforcing the systems that we already have in place

[21:29] <+mildbeard> you mean individually, or all as a group?

[21:29] <+jake> dont we need to pass the constitution before we start bylaws?

[21:29] <Sacha> Jake We already did a few weeks ago

[21:29] <@kusanagi> jake: yeah, I think so.

[21:30] <@kusanagi> No, he means as a state

[21:30] <+Zacqary> Not everyone's ratified it yet.

[21:30] <+jake> I see

[21:30] <+mildbeard> The PNC approved the constitution but member states need to ratify before they can vote on the bylaws.

[21:30] <Sacha> I am confused about how that pertains to the by laws

[21:30] <@teamcoltra> But current members who have ratified the constitution should be able to vote on bylaws

[21:30] <+jake> gotcha

[21:30] <+mildbeard> what about at-large states?

[21:31] <Sacha> Who are the current members? Just for when I am voting so that I can get it down on a notebook

[21:31] <+Zacqary> Also, I'd prefer not to vote on these bylaws yet because I'm still working on some structural frameworks I'd
like to propose.

[21:31] <+Zacqary> I can have these by next week.

[21:31] <Sacha> Mildbeard We have allowed them to vote in the past

[21:31] <+mildbeard> I'm wondering if they have to ratify, is all.

[21:31] <Sacha> I would be fine with allowing people to edit for a week if they have things they wish to change/add

[21:31] <@teamcoltra> Yeah mildbeard I honestly don't know, I was going to just accept their votes... but they have to ratify if
they become full members

[21:32] <@teamcoltra> its required now

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[21:32] == mode/#pnc [+o kusi] by ChanServ

[21:32] <+jake> what is the process for making changes to the constitution at this point?

[21:32] <Sacha> Mildbeard I think it is required for them to become a state party but they are not considered parties so they can
still vote. The ratification is just neccessary to become a full member from my understanding.

[21:32] <Sacha> Jake Making a motion and having I believe a 2/3rds to amend

[21:32] <+mildbeard> OK probably. I'm going to read it just to familiarize myself...

[21:32] <+jake> and I can both make a motion and vote, even before ratifying?

[21:33] <Sacha> How long was the exception we gave states?

[21:33] <@teamcoltra> I would also be willing to accept all states who have not ratified the constitution the same as at-large

[21:33] <@teamcoltra> it's stupid to not let them vote, but let at larges vote

[21:33] <@kusanagi> teamcoltra: that's what we've been doing, iirc.

[21:33] <Sacha> I thought that was how we were going to do it lol, they would just become glorified at larges

[21:34] <@teamcoltra> Exactly

[21:34] <@teamcoltra> I just don't think it's come up where I have had to do that

[21:34] <+Bosun> To further discussion, Wisconsin is willing to act as a conduit for any non ratified state who wishes to make a
motion.

[21:34] <Sacha> How long was the exception?

[21:34] <+jake> alright

[21:34] <Sacha> And how long has it been since we voted on the consitution

[21:35] <@kusanagi> It was 6 months, I believe.

[21:35] <Sacha> also what states are full members so that I can write that down for when I am counting votes

[21:35] <@kusanagi> I could be wrong

[21:36] <@teamcoltra> We accepted it July 25th

[21:36] <@teamcoltra> I thought it was 2 months

[21:36] <+Bosun> Look at the minutes.

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[21:36] <@teamcoltra> I am looking through them now Bosun

[21:37] <Sacha> <+QuazarGuy> "III.2.G. Ratify the PNC Constitution" <+mildbeard> We should add a time frame. <@teamcoltra> Ohh I
see <@teamcoltra> I was thinking, nevermind :P <+mildbeard> "III.2.G Ratify the PNC Constitution within 6 months of its adoption, or prior to the member state's admission, whichever is later."

[21:37] <Sacha> 6 months

[21:37] <Sacha> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_7/25/12

[21:38] <@teamcoltra> Yeah I was just getting to that spot

[21:38] <Sacha> ctrl + f <3

[21:38] <+mildbeard> It doesn't actually say that.

[21:38] <+mildbeard> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/Pirate_National_Committee_%28PNC%29/Constitution#ARTICLE_III:_Membership

[21:38] <Sacha> Yup, it needs to be changed

[21:38] <Sacha> because as I remember Zach wasn't in and we couldn't edit without him

[21:39] <Sacha> Could you add me to the people that can edit that and i'll cross reference the amendments with the wording this
week?

[21:39] <@teamcoltra> I think matuck- gave me editing privilages

[21:39] <@teamcoltra> Do you guys want to pause for a second to update it, or someone just query me and I will do it after

[21:39] <@kusanagi_mobi> We all have editing privs now

[21:39] <+mildbeard> Update it.

[21:39] <+mildbeard> We passed it, and it's important to have it right.

[21:39] <Sacha> Wait to edit it

[21:40] <Sacha> Until we find all of the errors

[21:40] <@teamcoltra> I am just going to update it

[21:40] <Sacha> Do you plan on going through the amendments and stuff or would you like me to and then send the notes to you?

[21:40] <Sacha> Or kusinagi can cuz she is the firstmate or someone else etc.

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> Oh... if there is a big list of things

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> then just compile a list for now

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> I can do it.

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> But just a note

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> Okay thanks kusanagi_mobi

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> We all have editing privs now

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> Anyone with a wiki account

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> Well let's keep going

[21:42] <Sacha> What do we wish to do with the bylaws

[21:43] <Sacha> I believe that is where we were

[21:43] <@teamcoltra> So do we want to pass bylaws or not? I would be in favour of it... otherwise it could be 6 months

[21:43] <+mildbeard> I'm not sure we're ready - maybe give us a week for final comments.

[21:43] <@teamcoltra> Who HAS ratified the Constitution?

[21:43] <+Bosun> Wisconsin

[21:43] <@kusanagi_mobi> NY, MA, WA..

[21:43] <@kusanagi_mobi> WI

[21:43] <+Zacqary> I'd like to wait till next week too because I'm still working on some stuff.

[21:44] <+Zacqary> And I think I'm still committee head, right?

[21:44] <+Zacqary> So.

[21:44] <+Zacqary> Yeah.

[21:44] <@teamcoltra> Zacqary :) Fair enough

[21:44] <Sacha> I am happy with waiting until next week, it will let me make it pretty

[21:44] <Sacha> Do we need a vote or are we good with this?

[21:44] <@teamcoltra> Can you guys include a date for elections (I would suggest September 5th)

[21:44] <@teamcoltra> in your bylaws

[21:44] <Sacha> No

[21:44] <Sacha> Unless it is something like

[21:44] <Sacha> "the second meeting of september"

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> No....

[21:45] <Sacha> or "the second wednesday" etc.

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> We specifically outlined this in the constitution

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> the general date was set in the constitution

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> but the exact date will be set by bylaw

[21:46] <Sacha> So we need to do a specific date

[21:46] <Sacha> Day and everything

[21:46] <@teamcoltra> yes

[21:46] <Sacha> What if the date ends up being on a saturday

[21:46] <Sacha> or a friday though

[21:47] <@kusanagi_mobi> So special meeting

[21:47] <@teamcoltra> It's a bylaw since it's so easy to be fixed every year

[21:47] <Sacha> or a terrible day for people to meet and vote

[21:47] <Sacha> That is so unnecessary though

[21:47] <Sacha> why fix something when we can do it right

[21:47] <Sacha> but we are screwed into it by the constitution

[21:47] <Sacha> I wish I had paid attention to that but nothing to do now I guess

[21:47] <@teamcoltra> You could set the date as "the third monday" or something

[21:47] <Sacha> We'll do it as we are required to do.

[21:47] <@teamcoltra> but it needs to be specific

[21:47] <+mildbeard> What exactly is the wording in the constitution?

[21:48] <Sacha> TeamColtra you mean like "21:45] <Sacha> or "the second wednesday" etc."

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> Sacha sorry I missed that - Yes that would be acceptable

[21:48] <+mildbeard> Can anyone point me to the exact language?

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> mildbeard

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> I am getting it

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> it was 2 weeks ago

[21:49] <Sacha> TeamColtra Kay, we will do it for sure then ^_^

[21:50] <Sacha> Also a quick notice to everyone: Is anyone having problems accessing the google docs? Because it is much more
efficient for the by laws and I would like to switch activity to that document if possible as that is where the editing is taking place.

[21:50] <@teamcoltra> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12#5_-_Agenda_Items

[21:50] <@teamcoltra> Vote held to amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly convention shall
be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws

[21:51] <+mildbeard> So a convention doesn't mean that it's an in-person event?

[21:51] <@teamcoltra> No, it would be an econvention

[21:51] <@teamcoltra> :)

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[21:52] <@teamcoltra> Basically the convention is to elect our leadership and approve a national presidential candidate if needed

[21:52] <+mildbeard> That's pretty flexible language, so the bylaws can use any way of saying what the date is as long as it's
clear.

[21:52] <@teamcoltra> mildbeard that's what I was saying

[21:52] <+mildbeard> and I agree.

[21:53] <@teamcoltra> I made a mistake in saying the bylaws can't say "the second wednesday" or something

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[21:53] == mode/#pnc [+o kusanagi] by ChanServ

[21:53] <Sacha> Yeah, that is okay though. I am just relieved it can be that.

[21:53] <@teamcoltra> So anyway, Sacha / Zacqary please include something in the bylaws

[21:53] <+mildbeard> kusanagi has us surrounded :)

[21:53] <Sacha> I put it on the agenda so we're good and made a note in my to-do list ^_^

[21:53] <+Zacqary> Will do.

[21:53] <Sacha> So to wrap up the by laws committee

[21:54] <Sacha> We're going to switch to this google doc

[21:54] <Sacha> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k6HyleGs_5009RlEgxW-wXmh4zSZeCJo1zBJkzTRoW8/edit?pli=1#heading=h.5u1huqm6xjta

[21:54] <Sacha> that is the only official place for editing that will be accepted

[21:54] <@kusanagi> mildbeard: sorry, working on fixing something and IRC keeps disconnecting

[21:54] <+Bosun> example from US code : The electors of President and Vice President shall be appointed, in each State, on the
Tuesday next after the first Monday in November, in every fourth year succeeding every election of a President and Vice President.

[21:54] <Sacha> Please comment, ask questions etc. and then we can vote next week. Sound good?

[21:54] <@kusanagi> I really am not comfortable with using a google doc

[21:54] <+mildbeard> np kusanagi just smiling along with you

[21:54] <Sacha> Kusanagi why not

[21:55] <@kusanagi> We should e using piratepad, I think.

[21:55] <@kusanagi> And to restrict us to a Google doc is well, kind of ludicrous.

[21:55] <+Rush> Guys, I need to head out.

[21:55] <+mildbeard> a wiki page would be a good alternative because it tracks history.

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[21:56] <@kusanagi> Oooh, I like that one too, mildbeard

[21:56] <@teamcoltra> piratepad tracks history too

[21:56] <@kusanagi> It should be something we "own"

[21:56] <@kusanagi> A google doc lacks that feeling.

[21:57] <+Zacqary> Google Docs is easier for me, personally, but I can transfer my work to whichever system we need.

[21:57] <+mildbeard> A google doc might have a privacy concern if it wasn't part of our open government transparency.

[21:57] <@teamcoltra> lol you mean like the German pirate pad where your connection is intercpeted by a government line? It's honestly up to Zacqary

[21:57] <@teamcoltra> It's his committee

[21:57] <+Bosun> For continuity can we agree on piratepad?

[21:57] <passstab> kusanagi, is right we should be willing to sacrifice small functionality to use something that is FOSS and respectful of privacy

[21:58] <@teamcoltra> I am going to move on, because it's not a PNC matter - it's a committee issue. Join the committee and decide as a team if you have a preference

[21:58] <+mildbeard> hear, hear.

[21:58] <@teamcoltra> Agenda Items

[21:59] <@teamcoltra> Who was the one who proposed: ad hoc Convention Committee

[21:59] <+Bosun> Twas I

[21:59] <@teamcoltra> Bosun go ahead

[22:00] <+Bosun> I propose the formation of an ad hoc convention committe.

[22:00] <@teamcoltra> With the purpose of?

[22:01] <@teamcoltra> (I am not disagreeing, I am asking for clarity)

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[22:01] <+Bosun> Of organizing our convention.

[22:01] <+mildbeard> Are you referring to the same convention that the bylaws committee has to set the date for?

[22:02] <+Bosun> Yes. …. organizing and publicity.

[22:02] <@teamcoltra> Would they manage voting and such?

[22:03] <+Bosun> We should inform the world that we are having a convention, even if small and even if virtual.

[22:04] <@kusanagi> I don't think a offline convention could be attended by many right now, but yes.

[22:05] <+Bosun> We would need to hatch a plan. It would be unwise to have delegates or candidates count votes. We need to be more
above board than anyone else.

[22:05] <@kusanagi> We should tell everyone, especially in light of the Adbusters thing.

[22:05] <+mildbeard> sure why not.

[22:05] <+Bosun> We need to show that we walk the walk on transparency and democracy.

[22:06] <+Bosun> Even if it is laptops in a hotel room.

[22:06] <@teamcoltra> ;) just keep your webcam off

[22:06] <@teamcoltra> But seriously I agree

[22:06] <@kusanagi> teamcoltra: lol

[22:07] <+jake> ok I vote yes

[22:07] <+jake> lets make a committee

[22:07] <+mildbeard> who would be the committee chair?

[22:07] <@teamcoltra> Okay well can someone make a voteable motion

[22:07] <@teamcoltra> which is very specific

[22:07] <@teamcoltra> if you want the committee to handle voting -- it needs to say that

[22:08] <+mildbeard> I move that the PNC create a convention committee to be responsible for organizing the convention on the date
to be specified in the bylaws, including voting, and to handle any associated publicity and promotions.

[22:09] <+jake> second

[22:09] <@teamcoltra> Do we want further discussion on it?

[22:09] <@teamcoltra> anyone disagree wit that?

[22:09] <@teamcoltra> with*

[22:09] <+Bosun> Yea that works … cuz I am a slow typist

[22:10] <+jake> lets proceed to vote

[22:10] <@teamcoltra> Okay all in favour of the motion the PNC create a convention committee to be responsible for organizing the
convention on the date to be specified in the bylaws, including voting, and to handle any associated publicity and promotions.

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[22:10] == kusi has changed nick to kusanagi

[22:10] <@teamcoltra> Please say aye, all against nay

[22:10] <+jake> aye

[22:10] <+Bosun> aye

[22:10] <+mildbeard> aye

[22:11] <passstab> aye

[22:11] <+Zacqary> Aye

[22:11] <jarod> Aye

[22:11] <@teamcoltra> Okay vote called

[22:12] <@teamcoltra> Sacha can you give the official total

[22:12] <Sacha> 5.5 for I believe

[22:12] <Sacha> my first count so check out my math :I

[22:12] == mode/#pnc [+v jarod] by teamcoltra

[22:12] <@teamcoltra> yes

[22:12] <@teamcoltra> thats righ

[22:13] <@teamcoltra> Okay does anyone want to volunteer to head the committee?

[22:13] <@kusanagi> Honestly, Bosun seems like he understands this well

[22:13] <@kusanagi> maybe?

[22:13] <+Bosun> Yeah … since I proposed it. BTW how do we setup an IRC channel?

[22:14] <+jake> I second Bosun

[22:14] <@kusanagi> Bosun, I can help with that

[22:14] <@teamcoltra> Bosun just join the channel

[22:14] <+Bosun> I would like volunteers.

[22:14] <+mildbeard> Type /join name-of-channel

[22:15] <+Bosun> ahh … ok

[22:15] <@teamcoltra> like if you want to create #boson just /join boson

[22:15] <+Bosun> gotcha

[22:15] <+Bosun> I need to RTFM.

[22:15] <@kusanagi> Bosun, lol

[22:15] <@kusanagi> it happens

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[22:16] <@teamcoltra> Okay so Bosun will head the committee

[22:17] <@teamcoltra> I think we can move on to 5.2

[22:17] <@teamcoltra> jake California's concerns about the Constitution

[22:17] <@teamcoltra> go ahead

[22:18] <+jake> ok

[22:18] <+jake> so there are a variety of suggestions, most of which I would characterise as linguistic

[22:18] <+jake> I could go through them all right now, but I think it would be better to submit a word doc

[22:19] <+jake> there's really two main issues, that make it so at this time we have to say no to ratification

[22:19] <+mildbeard> are there any major issues that would impact ratification?

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[22:19] <+jake> #1

[22:19] <+jake> Article 1 Section 3 "Values"

[22:19] <+jake> Value 6, currently worded as 6. Current Wording: "We are a post-ideological meritocracy. Policy and decision-making
must be based on evidence and scientific reasoning. The approach that works best, or the person who does the best job, must be chosen over the alternatives. Where possible, we avoid making decisions or selecting leaders based on tradition, popularity, authority or ideology"

[22:20] <+jake> we don't like it and would call for its removal altogether

[22:20] <+jake> There are enough elements of this that I find problematic that I would prefer it was done away with entirely. For
one thing, meritocracy is an ideology, and though it claims to be neutral to a bunch of social issues like race, class, gender, etc., it can be convincingly argued that this neutrality supports status quo power structures. As a practical example of this, wouldn't the current wording prevent a pirate from endorsing affirmative ac

[22:20] <+mildbeard> what's the problem with it?

[22:20] <+jake> heehe

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[22:21] <@teamcoltra> jake you got cut off

[22:21] <+jake> doh

[22:21] <+jake> how far

[22:21] <+jake> did it go?

[22:21] <@teamcoltra> California's concerns about the Constitution

[22:21] <@teamcoltra> err

[22:21] <@teamcoltra> t wording prevent a pirate from endorsing affirmative ac

[22:21] <+jake> prevent a pirate from endorsing affirmativeaction? What this plank implies to me is a sort of technocracy, where policymakers seethemselves as carrying out an essentially scientific mission in social and political space. Thisis just not how I view my relationship with politics. My belief in equality, for instance, is notgrounded in pragmatism - it is profoundly ideological.

[22:21] <+jake> If studies were to find that "theapproach that works best" did so in a non-equal manner (say, racial profiling at
airports), Iwould remain opposed to such a thing on principle. If all policy must be based on scientificreasoning, am I disallowed from voting based on principle?

[22:21] <+jake> These questions become evenmore problematic when applied to the last line. Any approach that selects leaders based noton authority or popularity or tradition (or any combination thereof), but rather throughsupposed merit, seems destined to be anti-democratic. These are just a few of the CPP's concerns.

[22:22] <+Bosun> Can you suggest an alternative wording?

[22:22] <+Zacqary> Erik Zoltan wrote that passage, so I wish he were here to comment.

[22:23] <@teamcoltra> If studies that were peer reviewed proved 100% conclusively that some approach works best... than yes... I
would believe we should follow it

[22:23] <+mildbeard> I'm Erik...

[22:23] <+Zacqary> OH

[22:23] <+Zacqary> DERP

[22:23] <+mildbeard> lol

[22:23] <@kusanagi> lol

[22:23] <@kusanagi> a wild zoltan has appeared

[22:23] <+jake> I don't think its modifiable in a way we would agree with.. at least not without such severe modifications that it might as well be done away with entirely, and a new form proposed

[22:24] <+Zacqary> The way I interpret values 6 and 7 are the Hacker Ethic, basically.

[22:24] <+Zacqary> So that's what I suggest we base any rewording on.

[22:24] <+mildbeard> I understand the objections jake has raised. They are serious issues and deserve to be dealt with.

[22:24] <+Zacqary> I do too.

[22:25] <+mildbeard> That said, I'm completely opposed to simply removing this value and leaving nothing in its place.

[22:25] <+Zacqary> As am I.

[22:25] <@teamcoltra> I don't think the Pirate Party should be in the business of making people "feel better", if the science
supports conclusively a platform point... then we need to embrace it

[22:25] <+jake> I would be open to hearing alternate wordings brought forward at a later time - or would happily take back alternate wordings to my people and see what they think.

[22:25] <+mildbeard> We have major parties that actually don't believe in anything, and that have contradictory positions based on nothing more than rhetoric. The point of that value is that we need something more than that.

[22:27] <+mildbeard> On the other hand, it would be possible to take the words in the "values" section (not just this value) and
twist them into something pretty horrible if we had cynical people who didn't know the difference between right and wrong.

[22:27] <@teamcoltra> Btw, California voted in favour of this concept when it was proposed before the constitution was passed.

[22:27] <+Zacqary> People can change their minds after thinking about things.

[22:27] <BradyMobile> Falkvinge's pirate wheel suggests that which is ' necessary, effective, proportionate, and evidence-based'.

[22:27] <+Bosun> Is this the point where we discuss post-modernism?

[22:27] <@teamcoltra> BradyMobile identify please?

[22:28] <+jake> Bosun, I hope not, unless we want our meeting to run on into infintiy

[22:28] <BradyMobile> Brady Dibble, Washington

[22:28] == mode/#pnc [+v BradyMobile] by teamcoltra

[22:28] <+Zacqary> I always thought we were a rather metamodernist party.

[22:28] <+Zacqary> Actually, never mind, let's not get into this.

[22:28] <+Zacqary> Shit shit shit abort.

[22:29] <Deamon> I'm postmetaultrasupermodernist

[22:29] <+mildbeard> So wait, that was only #1 of California's major issues right?

[22:29] <@teamcoltra> I'm a Pirate

[22:29] <+jake> Can we rephrase Value 6 as expressing an openness to dialog and debate about ideas; a willingness to give all people a chance both to be heard and to lead

[22:29] <@teamcoltra> jake you have the option to make a motion on #1

[22:29] <+Zacqary> That's Value 7.

[22:30] <@teamcoltra> though it doesn't seem popular... you can propose an amendment to the constituion

[22:30] <+jake> I dont have wording

[22:30] <@teamcoltra> kk

[22:30] <+Bosun> put the word 'democracy' in it

[22:30] <+jake> here's what I'm saying to mildbeard mostly

[22:30] <@teamcoltra> just wanted you to know that no one can prevent you from making a motion

[22:30] <+jake> If you could take out some of the stronger language in value 6 and roll some language into value 7, I believe you could maintain much of what you're trying to say without making the party seem obsessed with scientific rationality

[22:31] <+Zacqary> Bosun, I think democracy ought to be the logical conclusion of our values, not our values itself. It's a method. If a better system than democracy somehow comes along we should remain open to it.

[22:31] <+jake> that sort of amendment, if proposed and accepted, would allow california to ratify

[22:31] <+jake> I don't have wording for it right now; it should probably be thought about for at least a week

[22:31] <@teamcoltra> jake - It's my belief the party /should/ be obsessed with scientific rationality

[22:32] <+mildbeard> I think we can come up with a wording that would address the concern.

[22:32] <@teamcoltra> maybe not "obsessed" but highly dedicated

[22:32] <@kusanagi> obsessed is a very strong word.

[22:32] <+mildbeard> However I also feel that the concerns really wouldn't be a problem in view of the other core values in the document.

[22:32] <+Bosun> It is a constitution, not stone tablets from god.

[22:32] <+BradyMobile> Belief is a dangerous word.

[22:32] <+Zacqary> I think the problem with scientific rationality is that you have people like the hilariously-named Reason
magazine claiming that as their ideology, and ruining it for all the other actually rational people in the world.

[22:32] <+jake> just to give a counbterpoint to that Travis, here in California we're working with a lot of artists and musicians
who are very excited to be part of the party. that's not a fitting description of them. So I think it might be best for the party to leave room for individual discretiuon, on what we choose to be obsessed with

[22:33] <+jake> at least to a state level

[22:34] <+jake> so we had 1 more concern

[22:34] <+Bosun> Empirical evidence ..

[22:34] <+mildbeard> so there's a specific objection to science and meritocracy in value 6.

[22:34] <+mildbeard> actually post-ideological too.

[22:34] <+jake> this time it's an addition. we feel that the values as written do not expresses the progressive social agenda of
the Pirate Party. If we are going to be the party of the Internet, we need to champion things like access to the Internet, which can be couched in the greater framework of progressivism and social welfare. The CPP has always felt this is at the core of being a pirate.

[22:35] <+jake> so we'd propose the additional value:We believe in a progressive government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of democracy, including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet

[22:35] <+BradyMobile> Scientific reasoning is a neutral tool.

[22:35] <@teamcoltra> jake - to me it seems that California is taking a very "american" view of the word "science".

[22:35] <+BradyMobile> The method can be applied to humanitarian purposes.

[22:35] <+Zacqary> Well, actually, if you look at the numbers, a progressive government IS the approach that works best.

[22:36] <+Zacqary> So..that's value 6 right there.

[22:36] <+Bosun> Do you object to the word scientific or empirical reasoning as a philisophical point?

[22:36] <@teamcoltra> Zacqary exactly

[22:36] <+jake> theres no particular word we object to...

[22:36] <+Zacqary> Jake, I think what you're afraid of is bullshitters cherry-picking statistics and distorting facts rather than
actual hard evidence. Because actual hard evidence supports exactly what you're asking for.

[22:36] <+mildbeard> Well, there's a specific reason why the progressive social issues other than equality weren't proposed for
inclusion in the Constitution, so it makes sense to state what that is.

[22:37] <+jake> what I'm afraid of is not the bullshitters per se; it's the belief in infallible categories of truth like science that permit bullshitters such authority to peddle their bullshit

[22:37] <@teamcoltra> Zacqary lol your on a roll - I will just stay out of your way you are answering everything how I would ;)

[22:37] <+Bosun> Wiki the Wisconsin Idea.

[22:38] <@teamcoltra> True science cannot be bullshitted.

[22:38] <+jake> hard evidence is not a thing when applied to social science

[22:38] <@teamcoltra> It can be backed up

[22:38] <+jake> politics is not geology

[22:38] <@kusanagi> jake is right.

[22:38] <+mildbeard> The Pirate Party is a coalition of at least two very distinct ideologies - one is progressive and the other is
libertarian. There are a lot of libertarians out there who wouldn't be comfortable with a progressive social agenda. I don't know if this is really a problem, but that's why I never proposed to put any social progressive language into the core values.

[22:38] <+jake> I think its hugely irresponsible to be a party based in and around participation through the internet that doesn't take a progressive stance on things like access to the internet

[22:39] <+jake> the libertarian "let people figure out connections for themselves" is simply not appropriate

[22:39] <+mildbeard> Access to the internet is definitely a core value and it's in the pirate wheel. If it's not covered in the core values then we should add it.

[22:39] <+Zacqary> It's one of the conclusions of the Pirate Wheel.

[22:39] <+Zacqary> So it can be in our platform.

[22:39] <@teamcoltra> jake I agree 100% with that... and every paper I have read on Internet access has shown children who have access to internet connections perform better in school

[22:40] <+mildbeard> The Massachusetts Pirate Party is very socially progressive, and we would vote in favor of social progressive policies.

[22:40] <@teamcoltra> Science is a way to combat some of the libertarian social things that are just not founded in truth.

[22:40] <+mildbeard> Hold on, are we talking about item #1 (value 6) or item #2 (add progressive value)?

[22:41] <+BradyMobile> Science can go either way depending on your interpretation of the results.

[22:41] <+jake> neither is being voted on at this time, it's a general discussion of CPP's concerns

[22:41] <+mildbeard> OK but I'm getting confused so I'd like to discuss them separately.

[22:41] <+jake> that makes sense

[22:41] <+jake> lets start with the former

[22:42] <+Bosun> Science is a method not a result.

[22:42] <+jake> Can the language just get toned down? "Policy and decision-making must be based on evidence and scientific
reasoning." is sooo strong. You honestly believe politicians should never do what feels ethically right?

[22:42] <+mildbeard> On item 1 (value 6) I am still not sure that I understand in sufficient detail what California's objection is, in order to be able to propose alternative wording that would solve the problem and still keep the underlying point.

[22:43] <+jake> "The approach that works best, or the person who does the best job, must be chosen over the alternatives." is also
too strong. It prevents one from being in favor of Affirmative Action, for example

[22:43] <+BradyMobile> Ethics are subjective.

[22:43] <+BradyMobile> e.g. Legitimate Rape

[22:43] <+mildbeard> FIrst of all, it absolutely doesn't prevent one from being in favor of affirmative action!!!

[22:44] <+mildbeard> We have a core value 7 which talks about equality. If affirmative action is a good way to promote equality
then it's just fine.

[22:44] <+BradyMobile> If affirmative action is proven to produce the intended result.

[22:44] <+BradyMobile> Not just because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy

[22:45] <+BradyMobile> Mildbeard, was this your intention?

[22:45] <@teamcoltra> Exactly

[22:45] <@teamcoltra> Our policies shouldn't be based on making people feel better

[22:45] <+jake> then the two values contradict. Because in the interest of value 7, we can take someone who is not scientifically speaking the best for the job (in terms of test scores, experience) in favor of someone who benefits the diversity of the program

[22:45] <@teamcoltra> they should be about achieving positive results

[22:45] <+jake> value 6 says we must choose who is best for the job based on science

[22:46] <+Zacqary> The benefit from diversity outweighs the benefit from choosing the absolute best best best best person.

[22:46] <+mildbeard> Here's what we shouldn't do. We shouldn't adopt a policy because we're all liberal, and it makes us feel less
guilty about some people suffering. We should look at all the alternatives and try them out, and go with something that works. In the current political climate, it's "us against them" and as long as we defeat the opposing party it really doesn't seem to matter very much whether we are screwing up people's lives and making the world a horrible place

[22:46] <+mildbeard> If affirmative action works then we should be in favor of it.

[22:46] <+jake> then the wording needs to express our lack of political cynicism

[22:46] <@teamcoltra> Exactly, and if it doesn't... let's find something that actually HELPS minorities.

[22:46] <+mildbeard> If we go with something else, then it's becaus we have found that it is actually a more effective way of
promoting our core value of equality (value 7).

[22:47] <@teamcoltra> (not saying it doesn't, just saying IF it doesn't)

[22:47] <+Bosun> If it works. In some ways it has, but we still have racialy segregated slums.

[22:48] <+jake> the problem is that the debate will continue to rage about the exact science of 'whether or not it works'. because
sociology is not exact science. This is why the CPP believes it is important for us to be able to make decisions on purely ethical grounds

[22:48] <+jake> which value 6 disallows

[22:49] <+mildbeard> The intent of value 6 is not to disallow ethical grounds.

[22:49] <+mildbeard> So we can change that aspect.

[22:49] <+jake> then perhaps it is worded too strongly

[22:49] <@teamcoltra> I don't want to get into the subject too much -- but income based affirmitive action seems to be much more
promising than race based AA. However, by doing away with race based AA you run into the "emotional" impact of removing something you gave to minorities and redistributing it. This is what I want to avoid.

[22:49] <+Bosun> Can we add ethics into it?

[22:50] <+BradyMobile> Purely ethical grounds scares me.

[22:50] <@teamcoltra> Why are they exclusive of each other?

[22:50] <+jake> if value 6 can be reworded as a commitment to earnest and sincere policymaking based on what we feel is the best
course of action

[22:50] <@teamcoltra> if you are helping people and you can prove it, then you are doing what's most ethical

[22:50] <+jake> haha

[22:50] <+mildbeard> Let me take a long hard look at the wording of value 6, taking this concern into account, and come back with a
proposed rewording.

[22:50] <+jake> then Monsanto is a saint

[22:50] <+jake> :-)

[22:50] <+jake> ccause they own lots of research labs

[22:51] <+jake> that specialize in making proof of thingas

[22:51] <+BradyMobile> In the short run, maybe.

[22:51] <+BradyMobile> But the party is holistic

[22:51] <+jake> I agree with mildbeard

[22:51] <+Zacqary> Monsanto's very good at sounding like they know what the hell they're talking about.

[22:51] <+Zacqary> But not actually.

[22:51] <+jake> we should take up this debate at a later date when we have actual amendment wording

[22:52] <+jake> can we move to the second issue?

[22:52] <@teamcoltra> So we will come back to issue 1

[22:52] <+mildbeard> yes

[22:52] <@teamcoltra> lets move on

[22:52] <+jake> alright, the proposed added value

[22:52] <+jake> We believe in a progressive government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of
democracy, including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet.

[22:53] <+Zacqary> Again, I don't see how that's not a logical conclusion of the values we already have.

[22:53] <+jake> this is definitely part of CPP's core structure. We'd like to see something like it in the national language

[22:53] <+jake> it may be a logical conclusion

[22:53] <+jake> but its not said in any of the other values...

[22:53] <+mildbeard> There shouldn't be any sort of problem with the parts about health care, the Internet, and education.

[22:54] <+Zacqary> The values aren't supposed to dictate platform points.

[22:54] <+mildbeard> except that...

[22:54] <+jake> there is nothing in the values as stated that implies governmental responsibility to the citizens to provide
infrastructure and services

[22:55] <+mildbeard> So is there anyone right now on the PNC who would have a problem with government spending on health care, and
with terms like "social institutions", "progressive government" and so on?

[22:56] <+BradyMobile> I have an issue with the term progressive.

[22:56] <+jake> that can be omitted if the rest stands

[22:56] <+BradyMobile> It can be defined in non-pirate ways.

[22:56] <+mildbeard> BradyMobile, can you explain?

[22:57] <+jake> We believe in a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of democracy,
including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet.

[22:57] <+BradyMobile> I do believe certain republican factions have also stated using the word.

[22:57] <+Bosun> I would prefer 'support' or 'advocate for' rather than 'belive in'

[22:58] <+jake> either is fine

[22:58] <+jake> 'stand for' is the preferred term in constitution as written

[22:58] == QuazarGuy [~QuazarGuy@66.80.tw.hr] has joined #pnc

[22:58] <+mildbeard> OK, but BradyMobile do you have an underlying issue with any of the concepts or is it just the word "progressive"?

[22:58] <+Bosun> OK

[22:58] <+Zacqary> I have a problem with terms in general. The more used a term is, the more I say we should avoid saying it. Because words like "progressive" have a zillion different definitions, some good, some pejorative, none consistent.

[22:58] <+jake> "We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of democracy, including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet."

[22:59] <+MrSquared> Aight guys, I have to go

[22:59] == MrSquared [webchat@65.182.wky.sjn] has quit []

[22:59] <+Bosun> universall access ...

[22:59] <+jake> I like that

[23:00] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutionsnecessary for the broader goals of democracy, including
but not limited to health care, education, and universal access to the Internet.

[23:00] <+Zacqary> I agree with that entirely, Jake, but that's too specific for a value.

[23:00] <+mildbeard> I am worried that health care, education and internet access are not values but specific policies. I think we
need a core value that expresses the underlying idea (which is very important) but just naming the policies may not quite capture
the essential point.

[23:01] <+BradyMobile> I agree with mildbeard on this.

[23:01] <+Zacqary> Something about empowerment, maybe?

[23:01] <+jake> thats fine. Then I propose we keep the first sentence and expand from there

[23:01] <+BradyMobile> What about 'humanism'?

[23:01] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutionsnecessary forthe broader goals of democracy

[23:01] <+mildbeard> When we talk about health care, education and Internet access we are really saying that everyone is equally important and it's not acceptable that the few should be lying on golden beds while too many are starving.

[23:01] <+Zacqary> Even democracy I'd say is too specific, because that implies a specific system of government.

[23:02] <+jake> oh come on :P

[23:02] <+jake> thats too far

[23:02] <+mildbeard> I agree with Zacqary on that,

[23:02] <+Zacqary> Well, Falkvinge's with me on that one.

[23:02] <+jake> our party seems tied to the idea of democracy

[23:02] <+jake> how can we not be?

[23:02] <+Zacqary> http://falkvinge.net/pirate-wheel Democracy's in like Tier 3

[23:02] <+Zacqary> Because democracy just happens to be the best tool for the job we can think of right now.

[23:03] <+Zacqary> Operative word being tool.

[23:03] <+Zacqary> We choose the best tools to achieve our goals. We don't make tools goals in and of themselves.

[23:03] <+mildbeard> The "health care issue" is not so much about medicine as about equality. In some ways we have a great health
care system but too many people don't have access to it. We don't need to improve health care as such, just to make it universally accessible. It is an equality issue.

[23:04] <QuazarGuy> at the core, the Pirate Party is a civil right movement

[23:04] <+Zacqary> It's also a resilience issue. Society falls apart unless everyone's healthy. Come to think of it, I don't think
we fully cover resilience in the values.

[23:04] <+Zacqary> Or maybe we do because of value 6.

[23:04] <+Zacqary> What works best.

[23:04] <+jake> I thought so too QuazarGuy

[23:05] <+Zacqary> So let's say "civil rights" instead of "democracy"?

[23:06] <+jake> but that's not what we mean

[23:06] <+Zacqary> Citizen empowerment?

[23:06] <QuazarGuy> they aren't really interchangable

[23:06] <+Zacqary> How's that?

[23:06] <+jake> I suppose we could say citizen empowerment...but id really rather just say democracy

[23:06] <+mildbeard> I think we need to have a strong underlying core value about equality that says everyone is equally important
and we need a government that values the basic welfare of every citizen equally. And then we can adopt specific policies for things like health care, education, Internet and many other things that would support that value. Even affirmative action.

[23:06] <QuazarGuy> civil rights are freedom, democracy is a method of control

[23:06] <+Zacqary> We have equality in there.

[23:07] <+mildbeard> Zacqary yes we do, but it's not enough as it stands.

[23:07] <+jake> we have equality expressed in terms of NEGATIVE rights. The government will treat all people the same. the
government won't allow discrimination. What we need is an affirmation of POSITIVE rights. the gov will act to level the playing field.

[23:07] <+mildbeard> it does say a level playing field.

[23:07] <+jake> the gov will provide health care to the poor; will get internet to places that dont have it

[23:07] <+Zacqary> "We believe in equality and a level playing field."

[23:08] <+Bosun> We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment of the people, a society
were the humblest and weakest person

[23:08] <+Bosun> can enjoy the highest civil, economic, and social rights that the

[23:08] <+Bosun> biggest and most powerful possess.

[23:08] <+Zacqary> LOVE IT.

[23:08] <@kusanagi> yes!

[23:08] <+mildbeard> I think that's much closer to the mark.

[23:08] <+Bosun> Its a hashed A. Philip Randolph quote

[23:09] <+Zacqary> Honestly, what we have there is enough for me, but I'd be willing to add that ninth value just to make it more
rock-solid and leave less to interpretation.

[23:09] <+Zacqary> Do you like Bosun's wording, jake?

[23:09] <QuazarGuy> add political to it

[23:10] <+jake> I like the first part

[23:10] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary forthe empowerment of the people"

[23:10] <+Zacqary> So just that?

[23:11] <QuazarGuy> for the equal empowerment?

[23:11] <+jake> the second part doesn't fully make sense to me. cause we're not saying everyone is entitled to the best health
care, or the best internet, that all people should have the same economic privileges

[23:11] <+jake> we're not anti-capitalists

[23:12] <+mildbeard> That's a good point.

[23:12] <+jake> but the state should provide a minimum for its people...the idea of programs like medicaid and education grants is not to make society wholly level, but to provide safety nets

[23:12] <QuazarGuy> there should just be a floor that no one can fall below

[23:12] == teamcoltra [~travis_mc@168.sub-27-541-586.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]

[23:12] <+Bosun> rights do not equal economic equity

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[23:13] <+mildbeard> The enumeration of specific policies is generally out of scope for the Constitution. For example we are all
about Copyright, but we don't mention it in the Constitution. We say "open culture". That's why I'm uncomfortable with words like "health care" and "education".

[23:13] <+Zacqary> Can we please ban the word "capitalism"? Also "socialism". They've lost all meaning.

[23:14] <@kusanagi> i don't think we can bar words from being used.

[23:14] <+Bosun> How about: We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment of all the people

[23:14] <+Zacqary> It's a figure of speech.

[23:15] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment of all people" is fine with me

[23:15] <@kusanagi> I like that as well.

[23:15] <+jake> can we say empowerment, health, and well-being of all people?

[23:16] <@kusanagi> we can say whatever you will agree on.

[23:16] <+jake> well thats what I would like :-)

[23:16] <@kusanagi> also, as travis pinged out, i'm stepping up as chair

[23:16] <+mildbeard> cool

[23:16] <+jake> anyway those are the CPPs two concerns

[23:16] <+jake> we dont have to vote about either now

[23:17] <+jake> there are also minor linguistic issues which we could ratify in spite of and address at a later date

[23:17] <+Zacqary> How many ratifying members are here right now?

[23:17] <@kusanagi> Ok.

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[23:17] == mode/#pnc [+o teamcoltra] by ChanServ

[23:17] <QuazarGuy> the states will members will need more time to make sure their states agree

[23:17] <@kusanagi> Ok, he's back

[23:17] <+Zacqary> Oh right that

[23:18] <QuazarGuy> the members*

[23:18] <+Zacqary> Okay, let's not vote right now.

[23:18] <Sacha> All full members can vote until the six months is up, a reminder from what we found in the logs earlier

[23:18] <Sacha> Full member =/= ratifying yet

[23:19] <+Zacqary> So the wording we need to take back to our states is: "We stand for a government that promotes social
institutions necessary for the empowerment, health, and well-being of all people." Correct?

[23:19] <+jake> yup

[23:19] <+Bosun> Seems like it ...

[23:19] <+jake> and we also want to come up with some kind of revised text for 6

[23:20] <+Zacqary> I'd be willing to strike the "scientific reasoning" portion of that but keep "evidence". I mean, evidence isn't
a bad thing, right?

[23:20] <+Zacqary> Also maybe strike "the person who does the best job" just to avoid confusion re: affirmative action.

[23:21] <+jake> there's enough of it that warrants change that I dont think we're gonna come up with an agreed wording on this one
just now

[23:21] <+jake> lets just try to come up with some kind of proposal for next week

[23:21] <+Zacqary> Okay.

[23:22] <+Zacqary> Anything else?

[23:23] <+jake> thats all from me

[23:24] <+Zacqary> So is it AOB time, Cap'n?

[23:25] <@teamcoltra> yes

[23:25] <+Bosun> #usahcc is the US ad hoc Convention Committee

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[23:27] <@teamcoltra> Anything else that needs to be discussed?

[23:28] <@teamcoltra> or anyone want to motion to adjourn?

[23:29] <+Zacqary> Motion to adjourn.

[23:29] <+mildbeard> second

[23:29] <@teamcoltra> in favour?

[23:29] <+Zacqary> Aye

[23:29] <Deamon> aye

[23:29] <+Bosun> aye

[23:30] <+mildbeard> aye

[23:30] <@teamcoltra> Well we failed quorum

[23:30] <@teamcoltra> but it's alright

[23:31] <@teamcoltra> meeting adjourned

PNC 8/22/12

2012-08-29T20:31:01Z

Kusanagi: /* 1 - ATTENDEES */ Trying to line things up a bit better. first in series, possibly.

:'''Agenda PNC MEETING'''
::'''--- 08/22/2012 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/22/12

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*In Attendance:
**Jake Ziering, California
**Kyle DeVore, Oregon
**Zacqary Adam Green, New York
**Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin
**Jarod Smith, Georgia
**Bradley Hall, Florida
**Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts
**Brady Dibble, Washington

*excused
none

*unexcused
none

*probation
**Oklahoma, 6th week

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====

**James Eastman Jr., Michigan
**Cullen Matthews, Illinois
**Benjamin Sauerhaft Coplon, Pennsylvania

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====
**Travis McCrea, ID, Captain
**Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, First Mate
**Amanda Johnson, MI, Acting Secretary at the request of Jeff Talada, WA, Secretary

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting opened at: 09:00pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting closed at: 11:31pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting chaired by Travis McCrea/Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Secretary for this meeting is Amanda Johnson
*Quorum is established: Members 8 out of 8 present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===
====4.1 - Short report of the board members ====

=====Massachusetts=====
Liquid feedback is going well and there are a few alpha testers. New Hampshire now has a state party.

=====Washington=====
No news

=====Oregon=====
Working on recruiting friends and making a facebook page.

=====Georgia====
No news

=====Florida=====
Kicking butt and taking names. Starting to work on No Safe Harbor 2 and working on getting ahold of florida.pirate-party.us.

=====New York=====
No news

=====California=====
Working on music project and internships. The Pirate Hour is hosting a prominent libertarian this week and California has a few reservations about the PNC constitution that will be discussed later in the meeting.

=====Wisconsin=====
Tweeting and getting support on facebook. Continuing to work on web infrastructure.

==== 4.2 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====
No news

=====Bylaws Committee=====
There is a rough draft of the by laws available at 'https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k6HyleGs_5009RlEgxW-wXmh4zSZeCJo1zBJkzTRoW8/edit?pli=1'

Voting on the bylaws will be held next week. The bylaws committee will add a specific date to the bylaws.

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===

==== 5.1 ad-hoc Convention Committee ====
Motion to create a convention committe
Passed with 5.5 aye
Chaired by Boson

==== 5.2 California's concerns about the Constitution ====
Problem 1: The strictly science based approach to decision making.
Discussion will be moved to another time after a proposed amendment has been created.

Problem 2: Expanding the core values to include health care, education and access to the internet.
Representatives will take this amendment "We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment, health, and well-being of all people," back to their states for discussion and voting next week.

=== - AOB - ===

Motion to adjourn meeting
Quorum failed, captain ended the meeting anyway.

*Next meeting: TBA at 9PM EDT
*Meeting closed:11:31 pm

Log:
[21:00] <@teamcoltra> I call the meeting to order lets do roll call

[21:01] <Deamon> James Eastman Jr., Michigan

[21:01] == LolItsAnAcronym [~Fagulox@298-730-783-26.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #pnc

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v Deamon] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <MrSquared> Kyle DeVore, Oregon

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v MrSquared] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <jake> jake ziering, california

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v jake] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <CullenMatthews> CullenMatthews, Illinois

[21:01] <Zacqary> Zacqary Adam Green, New York

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v CullenMatthews] by teamcoltra

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v Zacqary] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <+Deamon> again, pretty sure Michigan doesn't get voice since it's observer status

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [-v Deamon] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <Bosun> Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin

[21:02] == mode/#pnc [+v Bosun] by teamcoltra

[21:02] <Deamon> thank you

[21:02] <passstab> kbenjamin sauerhaft coplon Pennsylvania

[21:03] <Sacha> Amanda Johnson, Michigan. Deamon is the rep tonight.

[21:03] <@teamcoltra> So tonight's meeting has 5 out of 8 states present

[21:03] <@kusanagi> Lindsay-Anne Brunner, New York.

[21:04] <@teamcoltra> Sacha you are tonights Quartermaster at the request of Jeffery Talada

[21:04] <@teamcoltra> if you accept the responsibility

[21:04] == LolItsAnAcronym [~Fagulox@298-730-783-26.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]

[21:04] <Sacha> I accept and am on time this week ;)

[21:04] <@teamcoltra> Sweet. So then lets review last weeks minutes http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12

[21:05] <@teamcoltra> Once you have read and accepted last weeks minutes just say so

[21:05] <jarod_> Jarod Smith GA

[21:06] == mode/#pnc [+v jarod_] by teamcoltra

[21:06] <+Bosun> read and accepted

[21:06] <Deamon> Read

[21:06] <+jake> read and accepted

[21:06] <Rush> Bradley Hall, Florida

[21:07] <+CullenMatthews> read and accepted

[21:07] <+MrSquared> read and accepted

[21:07] <Rush> accepted and read

[21:07] == mode/#pnc [+v Brendan] by teamcoltra

[21:07] == mode/#pnc [-v Brendan] by teamcoltra

[21:07] <+Zacqary> Read and accepted

[21:07] == mode/#pnc [+v Rush] by teamcoltra

[21:08] <@teamcoltra> Okay let's do reports. Oregon is up first

[21:09] <mildbeard> Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts

[21:09] <@teamcoltra> MrSquared

[21:09] == mode/#pnc [+v mildbeard] by teamcoltra

[21:09] <+MrSquared> Yep, one sec

[21:10] <@teamcoltra> ( mildbeard I will go to you next )

[21:10] <+MrSquared> I am still in process in making a facebook page for ORPP, and I am going to update our website to have
important information as well

[21:10] <+MrSquared> also I am looking to recruit one of my friends to help me out with this stuff

[21:10] <+MrSquared> that's all

[21:11] <@teamcoltra> Thanks MrSquared

[21:11] <@teamcoltra> mildbeard - Whats up with Mass?

[21:11] <+mildbeard> Our liquid feedback testing has gone well as far as I can see.

[21:11] <+mildbeard> We have a "Massachusetts" section but we also have a "United States" section and a few alpha testers from
outside of Mass volunteered to help.

[21:12] <+mildbeard> There is now a New Hampshire Pirate Party.

[21:12] <+mildbeard> Both Jamie and I have been away so there's not much to report.

[21:12] == mode/#pnc [-v CullenMatthews] by teamcoltra

[21:12] <+mildbeard> that's it for Mass.

[21:12] <@kusanagi> Yay NH!

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> I have been talking to NH Pirates, dave (right?) seems to have a good plan

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> Thanks

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> Chris

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> not dave

[21:13] <+mildbeard> yep

[21:13] <+mildbeard> Chris helped found MAPP.

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> Georiga / jarod_

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[21:13] <@teamcoltra> your up

[21:14] <+jarod_> no news

[21:14] <@teamcoltra> Brad/Rush Florida

[21:15] <+Rush> In Florida we are kicking butt and taking names. We're preparing to start actually working on NSH2 in a few weeks.
We also were able to talk to Chris Sheats long enough to take control of florida.pirate-party.us. Other than that, we're rocking.

[21:15] <+Rush> Done

[21:15] <@teamcoltra> :) Thanks Rush

[21:16] <@teamcoltra> New York / Zacqary

[21:16] <+Zacqary> Nothing to report. Unless I'm missing something, kusanagi?

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> jake you will be up if kusanagi has nothing else

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> Okay well since she's not replying

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> go ahead jake

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> whats going on in California

[21:19] <+jake> we don't have quite so much this week :) We're continuing work on our music project and internship proposals; we
have a pirate hour this thursday with a prominent libertarian who we get to debate about some points of disagreement; and we've gone over the constitution and have some suggestions for potential revisions

[21:19] == kusanagi [~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]

[21:19] <+jake> if you're interested in either attending the pirate hour or being part of the music project, shoot an email to calpirateparty@gmail.co

[21:19] <+jake> m

[21:19] <+jake> done

[21:20] <@teamcoltra> Thanks jake

[21:20] <@teamcoltra> Bosun / Cheese State

[21:20] <+Bosun> Slow backend work on our web infrastructure. Tweeting our brains out. Upward trends continue on FB. Too many
students and teacher members here preparing for school. Nothing else to report this week.

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[21:21] == mode/#pnc [+o kusanagi] by ChanServ

[21:21] <@teamcoltra> Sweet, thanks Bosun

[21:21] <@teamcoltra> Now is Caleb not here, or using a screenname that I don't recognize?

[21:22] <@teamcoltra> Okay I am assuming not, passstab or anyone else who is familliar with IT want to say anything?

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[21:22] <@teamcoltra> matuck- maybe?

[21:23] <@kusanagi> He's here

[21:23] <@kusanagi> Takyoji[mobile]: IT!

[21:23] <Deamon> Beuller?

[21:23] <passstab> whoa i'm familiar with IT?

[21:23] <@teamcoltra> I thought you were doing a project in IT

[21:23] <@kusanagi> Apparently not lol

[21:23] <@teamcoltra> :P I am just trying to get anyone who has anything to report on IT at all... but it looks like we will come
back to it

[21:24] <@teamcoltra> Bylaws Committee - I know Sacha sent an email to the SAB so I will let her start

[21:25] <Sacha> Yay!

[21:25] <Sacha> I made up some by laws and sent them on the SAB list

[21:25] <Sacha> http://piratepad.net/QARAiTYdmT

[21:25] <Sacha> Here they are, I hope everyone was able to take a look at them

[21:25] <Sacha> and i'm not sure if we are going to discuss them now or... what we are going to do with them

[21:25] <Sacha> but they exist

[21:26] <Sacha> and that is all I plan on putting in there right now

[21:26] <Sacha> so... whatever El capitan wants to do I am down with

[21:26] <@teamcoltra> Did you set out an election bylaw? ie when elections will be held?

[21:26] <Sacha> No, we agree on two months prior right?

[21:27] <Sacha> For some reason I thought that was a constitutional amendment

[21:27] <Sacha> ~*adding*~

[21:27] <@teamcoltra> It was a constitutional amendment

[21:27] <@teamcoltra> which we set the requirement to have a bylaw dictating the time

[21:27] <@teamcoltra> Which is what I have been waiting on since I have no legal framework to call an election

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[21:28] <Sacha> Ahhh okay

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[21:28] <+mildbeard> So is it a simple majority for the PNC to approve the bylaws - whenever we get to that?

[21:28] <+mildbeard> And also a simple majority to amend later?

[21:28] <@teamcoltra> Yeah

[21:28] <@kusanagi> I believe so

[21:29] <+mildbeard> k

[21:29] <@teamcoltra> I would suggest we go through these bylaws and just pass them

[21:29] <@teamcoltra> or not pass them

[21:29] <@teamcoltra> Most of them are basically enforcing the systems that we already have in place

[21:29] <+mildbeard> you mean individually, or all as a group?

[21:29] <+jake> dont we need to pass the constitution before we start bylaws?

[21:29] <Sacha> Jake We already did a few weeks ago

[21:29] <@kusanagi> jake: yeah, I think so.

[21:30] <@kusanagi> No, he means as a state

[21:30] <+Zacqary> Not everyone's ratified it yet.

[21:30] <+jake> I see

[21:30] <+mildbeard> The PNC approved the constitution but member states need to ratify before they can vote on the bylaws.

[21:30] <Sacha> I am confused about how that pertains to the by laws

[21:30] <@teamcoltra> But current members who have ratified the constitution should be able to vote on bylaws

[21:30] <+jake> gotcha

[21:30] <+mildbeard> what about at-large states?

[21:31] <Sacha> Who are the current members? Just for when I am voting so that I can get it down on a notebook

[21:31] <+Zacqary> Also, I'd prefer not to vote on these bylaws yet because I'm still working on some structural frameworks I'd
like to propose.

[21:31] <+Zacqary> I can have these by next week.

[21:31] <Sacha> Mildbeard We have allowed them to vote in the past

[21:31] <+mildbeard> I'm wondering if they have to ratify, is all.

[21:31] <Sacha> I would be fine with allowing people to edit for a week if they have things they wish to change/add

[21:31] <@teamcoltra> Yeah mildbeard I honestly don't know, I was going to just accept their votes... but they have to ratify if
they become full members

[21:32] <@teamcoltra> its required now

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[21:32] <+jake> what is the process for making changes to the constitution at this point?

[21:32] <Sacha> Mildbeard I think it is required for them to become a state party but they are not considered parties so they can
still vote. The ratification is just neccessary to become a full member from my understanding.

[21:32] <Sacha> Jake Making a motion and having I believe a 2/3rds to amend

[21:32] <+mildbeard> OK probably. I'm going to read it just to familiarize myself...

[21:32] <+jake> and I can both make a motion and vote, even before ratifying?

[21:33] <Sacha> How long was the exception we gave states?

[21:33] <@teamcoltra> I would also be willing to accept all states who have not ratified the constitution the same as at-large

[21:33] <@teamcoltra> it's stupid to not let them vote, but let at larges vote

[21:33] <@kusanagi> teamcoltra: that's what we've been doing, iirc.

[21:33] <Sacha> I thought that was how we were going to do it lol, they would just become glorified at larges

[21:34] <@teamcoltra> Exactly

[21:34] <@teamcoltra> I just don't think it's come up where I have had to do that

[21:34] <+Bosun> To further discussion, Wisconsin is willing to act as a conduit for any non ratified state who wishes to make a
motion.

[21:34] <Sacha> How long was the exception?

[21:34] <+jake> alright

[21:34] <Sacha> And how long has it been since we voted on the consitution

[21:35] <@kusanagi> It was 6 months, I believe.

[21:35] <Sacha> also what states are full members so that I can write that down for when I am counting votes

[21:35] <@kusanagi> I could be wrong

[21:36] <@teamcoltra> We accepted it July 25th

[21:36] <@teamcoltra> I thought it was 2 months

[21:36] <+Bosun> Look at the minutes.

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[21:36] <@teamcoltra> I am looking through them now Bosun

[21:37] <Sacha> <+QuazarGuy> "III.2.G. Ratify the PNC Constitution" <+mildbeard> We should add a time frame. <@teamcoltra> Ohh I
see <@teamcoltra> I was thinking, nevermind :P <+mildbeard> "III.2.G Ratify the PNC Constitution within 6 months of its adoption, or prior to the member state's admission, whichever is later."

[21:37] <Sacha> 6 months

[21:37] <Sacha> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_7/25/12

[21:38] <@teamcoltra> Yeah I was just getting to that spot

[21:38] <Sacha> ctrl + f <3

[21:38] <+mildbeard> It doesn't actually say that.

[21:38] <+mildbeard> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/Pirate_National_Committee_%28PNC%29/Constitution#ARTICLE_III:_Membership

[21:38] <Sacha> Yup, it needs to be changed

[21:38] <Sacha> because as I remember Zach wasn't in and we couldn't edit without him

[21:39] <Sacha> Could you add me to the people that can edit that and i'll cross reference the amendments with the wording this
week?

[21:39] <@teamcoltra> I think matuck- gave me editing privilages

[21:39] <@teamcoltra> Do you guys want to pause for a second to update it, or someone just query me and I will do it after

[21:39] <@kusanagi_mobi> We all have editing privs now

[21:39] <+mildbeard> Update it.

[21:39] <+mildbeard> We passed it, and it's important to have it right.

[21:39] <Sacha> Wait to edit it

[21:40] <Sacha> Until we find all of the errors

[21:40] <@teamcoltra> I am just going to update it

[21:40] <Sacha> Do you plan on going through the amendments and stuff or would you like me to and then send the notes to you?

[21:40] <Sacha> Or kusinagi can cuz she is the firstmate or someone else etc.

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> Oh... if there is a big list of things

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> then just compile a list for now

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> I can do it.

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> But just a note

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> Okay thanks kusanagi_mobi

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> We all have editing privs now

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> Anyone with a wiki account

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> Well let's keep going

[21:42] <Sacha> What do we wish to do with the bylaws

[21:43] <Sacha> I believe that is where we were

[21:43] <@teamcoltra> So do we want to pass bylaws or not? I would be in favour of it... otherwise it could be 6 months

[21:43] <+mildbeard> I'm not sure we're ready - maybe give us a week for final comments.

[21:43] <@teamcoltra> Who HAS ratified the Constitution?

[21:43] <+Bosun> Wisconsin

[21:43] <@kusanagi_mobi> NY, MA, WA..

[21:43] <@kusanagi_mobi> WI

[21:43] <+Zacqary> I'd like to wait till next week too because I'm still working on some stuff.

[21:44] <+Zacqary> And I think I'm still committee head, right?

[21:44] <+Zacqary> So.

[21:44] <+Zacqary> Yeah.

[21:44] <@teamcoltra> Zacqary :) Fair enough

[21:44] <Sacha> I am happy with waiting until next week, it will let me make it pretty

[21:44] <Sacha> Do we need a vote or are we good with this?

[21:44] <@teamcoltra> Can you guys include a date for elections (I would suggest September 5th)

[21:44] <@teamcoltra> in your bylaws

[21:44] <Sacha> No

[21:44] <Sacha> Unless it is something like

[21:44] <Sacha> "the second meeting of september"

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> No....

[21:45] <Sacha> or "the second wednesday" etc.

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> We specifically outlined this in the constitution

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> the general date was set in the constitution

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> but the exact date will be set by bylaw

[21:46] <Sacha> So we need to do a specific date

[21:46] <Sacha> Day and everything

[21:46] <@teamcoltra> yes

[21:46] <Sacha> What if the date ends up being on a saturday

[21:46] <Sacha> or a friday though

[21:47] <@kusanagi_mobi> So special meeting

[21:47] <@teamcoltra> It's a bylaw since it's so easy to be fixed every year

[21:47] <Sacha> or a terrible day for people to meet and vote

[21:47] <Sacha> That is so unnecessary though

[21:47] <Sacha> why fix something when we can do it right

[21:47] <Sacha> but we are screwed into it by the constitution

[21:47] <Sacha> I wish I had paid attention to that but nothing to do now I guess

[21:47] <@teamcoltra> You could set the date as "the third monday" or something

[21:47] <Sacha> We'll do it as we are required to do.

[21:47] <@teamcoltra> but it needs to be specific

[21:47] <+mildbeard> What exactly is the wording in the constitution?

[21:48] <Sacha> TeamColtra you mean like "21:45] <Sacha> or "the second wednesday" etc."

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> Sacha sorry I missed that - Yes that would be acceptable

[21:48] <+mildbeard> Can anyone point me to the exact language?

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> mildbeard

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> I am getting it

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> it was 2 weeks ago

[21:49] <Sacha> TeamColtra Kay, we will do it for sure then ^_^

[21:50] <Sacha> Also a quick notice to everyone: Is anyone having problems accessing the google docs? Because it is much more
efficient for the by laws and I would like to switch activity to that document if possible as that is where the editing is taking place.

[21:50] <@teamcoltra> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12#5_-_Agenda_Items

[21:50] <@teamcoltra> Vote held to amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly convention shall
be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws

[21:51] <+mildbeard> So a convention doesn't mean that it's an in-person event?

[21:51] <@teamcoltra> No, it would be an econvention

[21:51] <@teamcoltra> :)

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[21:52] <@teamcoltra> Basically the convention is to elect our leadership and approve a national presidential candidate if needed

[21:52] <+mildbeard> That's pretty flexible language, so the bylaws can use any way of saying what the date is as long as it's
clear.

[21:52] <@teamcoltra> mildbeard that's what I was saying

[21:52] <+mildbeard> and I agree.

[21:53] <@teamcoltra> I made a mistake in saying the bylaws can't say "the second wednesday" or something

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[21:53] <Sacha> Yeah, that is okay though. I am just relieved it can be that.

[21:53] <@teamcoltra> So anyway, Sacha / Zacqary please include something in the bylaws

[21:53] <+mildbeard> kusanagi has us surrounded :)

[21:53] <Sacha> I put it on the agenda so we're good and made a note in my to-do list ^_^

[21:53] <+Zacqary> Will do.

[21:53] <Sacha> So to wrap up the by laws committee

[21:54] <Sacha> We're going to switch to this google doc

[21:54] <Sacha> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k6HyleGs_5009RlEgxW-wXmh4zSZeCJo1zBJkzTRoW8/edit?pli=1#heading=h.5u1huqm6xjta

[21:54] <Sacha> that is the only official place for editing that will be accepted

[21:54] <@kusanagi> mildbeard: sorry, working on fixing something and IRC keeps disconnecting

[21:54] <+Bosun> example from US code : The electors of President and Vice President shall be appointed, in each State, on the
Tuesday next after the first Monday in November, in every fourth year succeeding every election of a President and Vice President.

[21:54] <Sacha> Please comment, ask questions etc. and then we can vote next week. Sound good?

[21:54] <@kusanagi> I really am not comfortable with using a google doc

[21:54] <+mildbeard> np kusanagi just smiling along with you

[21:54] <Sacha> Kusanagi why not

[21:55] <@kusanagi> We should e using piratepad, I think.

[21:55] <@kusanagi> And to restrict us to a Google doc is well, kind of ludicrous.

[21:55] <+Rush> Guys, I need to head out.

[21:55] <+mildbeard> a wiki page would be a good alternative because it tracks history.

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[21:56] <@kusanagi> Oooh, I like that one too, mildbeard

[21:56] <@teamcoltra> piratepad tracks history too

[21:56] <@kusanagi> It should be something we "own"

[21:56] <@kusanagi> A google doc lacks that feeling.

[21:57] <+Zacqary> Google Docs is easier for me, personally, but I can transfer my work to whichever system we need.

[21:57] <+mildbeard> A google doc might have a privacy concern if it wasn't part of our open government transparency.

[21:57] <@teamcoltra> lol you mean like the German pirate pad where your connection is intercpeted by a government line? It's honestly up to Zacqary

[21:57] <@teamcoltra> It's his committee

[21:57] <+Bosun> For continuity can we agree on piratepad?

[21:57] <passstab> kusanagi, is right we should be willing to sacrifice small functionality to use something that is FOSS and respectful of privacy

[21:58] <@teamcoltra> I am going to move on, because it's not a PNC matter - it's a committee issue. Join the committee and decide as a team if you have a preference

[21:58] <+mildbeard> hear, hear.

[21:58] <@teamcoltra> Agenda Items

[21:59] <@teamcoltra> Who was the one who proposed: ad hoc Convention Committee

[21:59] <+Bosun> Twas I

[21:59] <@teamcoltra> Bosun go ahead

[22:00] <+Bosun> I propose the formation of an ad hoc convention committe.

[22:00] <@teamcoltra> With the purpose of?

[22:01] <@teamcoltra> (I am not disagreeing, I am asking for clarity)

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[22:01] <+Bosun> Of organizing our convention.

[22:01] <+mildbeard> Are you referring to the same convention that the bylaws committee has to set the date for?

[22:02] <+Bosun> Yes. …. organizing and publicity.

[22:02] <@teamcoltra> Would they manage voting and such?

[22:03] <+Bosun> We should inform the world that we are having a convention, even if small and even if virtual.

[22:04] <@kusanagi> I don't think a offline convention could be attended by many right now, but yes.

[22:05] <+Bosun> We would need to hatch a plan. It would be unwise to have delegates or candidates count votes. We need to be more
above board than anyone else.

[22:05] <@kusanagi> We should tell everyone, especially in light of the Adbusters thing.

[22:05] <+mildbeard> sure why not.

[22:05] <+Bosun> We need to show that we walk the walk on transparency and democracy.

[22:06] <+Bosun> Even if it is laptops in a hotel room.

[22:06] <@teamcoltra> ;) just keep your webcam off

[22:06] <@teamcoltra> But seriously I agree

[22:06] <@kusanagi> teamcoltra: lol

[22:07] <+jake> ok I vote yes

[22:07] <+jake> lets make a committee

[22:07] <+mildbeard> who would be the committee chair?

[22:07] <@teamcoltra> Okay well can someone make a voteable motion

[22:07] <@teamcoltra> which is very specific

[22:07] <@teamcoltra> if you want the committee to handle voting -- it needs to say that

[22:08] <+mildbeard> I move that the PNC create a convention committee to be responsible for organizing the convention on the date
to be specified in the bylaws, including voting, and to handle any associated publicity and promotions.

[22:09] <+jake> second

[22:09] <@teamcoltra> Do we want further discussion on it?

[22:09] <@teamcoltra> anyone disagree wit that?

[22:09] <@teamcoltra> with*

[22:09] <+Bosun> Yea that works … cuz I am a slow typist

[22:10] <+jake> lets proceed to vote

[22:10] <@teamcoltra> Okay all in favour of the motion the PNC create a convention committee to be responsible for organizing the
convention on the date to be specified in the bylaws, including voting, and to handle any associated publicity and promotions.

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[22:10] <@teamcoltra> Please say aye, all against nay

[22:10] <+jake> aye

[22:10] <+Bosun> aye

[22:10] <+mildbeard> aye

[22:11] <passstab> aye

[22:11] <+Zacqary> Aye

[22:11] <jarod> Aye

[22:11] <@teamcoltra> Okay vote called

[22:12] <@teamcoltra> Sacha can you give the official total

[22:12] <Sacha> 5.5 for I believe

[22:12] <Sacha> my first count so check out my math :I

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[22:12] <@teamcoltra> yes

[22:12] <@teamcoltra> thats righ

[22:13] <@teamcoltra> Okay does anyone want to volunteer to head the committee?

[22:13] <@kusanagi> Honestly, Bosun seems like he understands this well

[22:13] <@kusanagi> maybe?

[22:13] <+Bosun> Yeah … since I proposed it. BTW how do we setup an IRC channel?

[22:14] <+jake> I second Bosun

[22:14] <@kusanagi> Bosun, I can help with that

[22:14] <@teamcoltra> Bosun just join the channel

[22:14] <+Bosun> I would like volunteers.

[22:14] <+mildbeard> Type /join name-of-channel

[22:15] <+Bosun> ahh … ok

[22:15] <@teamcoltra> like if you want to create #boson just /join boson

[22:15] <+Bosun> gotcha

[22:15] <+Bosun> I need to RTFM.

[22:15] <@kusanagi> Bosun, lol

[22:15] <@kusanagi> it happens

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[22:16] <@teamcoltra> Okay so Bosun will head the committee

[22:17] <@teamcoltra> I think we can move on to 5.2

[22:17] <@teamcoltra> jake California's concerns about the Constitution

[22:17] <@teamcoltra> go ahead

[22:18] <+jake> ok

[22:18] <+jake> so there are a variety of suggestions, most of which I would characterise as linguistic

[22:18] <+jake> I could go through them all right now, but I think it would be better to submit a word doc

[22:19] <+jake> there's really two main issues, that make it so at this time we have to say no to ratification

[22:19] <+mildbeard> are there any major issues that would impact ratification?

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[22:19] <+jake> #1

[22:19] <+jake> Article 1 Section 3 "Values"

[22:19] <+jake> Value 6, currently worded as 6. Current Wording: "We are a post-ideological meritocracy. Policy and decision-making
must be based on evidence and scientific reasoning. The approach that works best, or the person who does the best job, must be chosen over the alternatives. Where possible, we avoid making decisions or selecting leaders based on tradition, popularity, authority or ideology"

[22:20] <+jake> we don't like it and would call for its removal altogether

[22:20] <+jake> There are enough elements of this that I find problematic that I would prefer it was done away with entirely. For
one thing, meritocracy is an ideology, and though it claims to be neutral to a bunch of social issues like race, class, gender, etc., it can be convincingly argued that this neutrality supports status quo power structures. As a practical example of this, wouldn't the current wording prevent a pirate from endorsing affirmative ac

[22:20] <+mildbeard> what's the problem with it?

[22:20] <+jake> heehe

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[22:21] <@teamcoltra> jake you got cut off

[22:21] <+jake> doh

[22:21] <+jake> how far

[22:21] <+jake> did it go?

[22:21] <@teamcoltra> California's concerns about the Constitution

[22:21] <@teamcoltra> err

[22:21] <@teamcoltra> t wording prevent a pirate from endorsing affirmative ac

[22:21] <+jake> prevent a pirate from endorsing affirmativeaction? What this plank implies to me is a sort of technocracy, where policymakers seethemselves as carrying out an essentially scientific mission in social and political space. Thisis just not how I view my relationship with politics. My belief in equality, for instance, is notgrounded in pragmatism - it is profoundly ideological.

[22:21] <+jake> If studies were to find that "theapproach that works best" did so in a non-equal manner (say, racial profiling at
airports), Iwould remain opposed to such a thing on principle. If all policy must be based on scientificreasoning, am I disallowed from voting based on principle?

[22:21] <+jake> These questions become evenmore problematic when applied to the last line. Any approach that selects leaders based noton authority or popularity or tradition (or any combination thereof), but rather throughsupposed merit, seems destined to be anti-democratic. These are just a few of the CPP's concerns.

[22:22] <+Bosun> Can you suggest an alternative wording?

[22:22] <+Zacqary> Erik Zoltan wrote that passage, so I wish he were here to comment.

[22:23] <@teamcoltra> If studies that were peer reviewed proved 100% conclusively that some approach works best... than yes... I
would believe we should follow it

[22:23] <+mildbeard> I'm Erik...

[22:23] <+Zacqary> OH

[22:23] <+Zacqary> DERP

[22:23] <+mildbeard> lol

[22:23] <@kusanagi> lol

[22:23] <@kusanagi> a wild zoltan has appeared

[22:23] <+jake> I don't think its modifiable in a way we would agree with.. at least not without such severe modifications that it might as well be done away with entirely, and a new form proposed

[22:24] <+Zacqary> The way I interpret values 6 and 7 are the Hacker Ethic, basically.

[22:24] <+Zacqary> So that's what I suggest we base any rewording on.

[22:24] <+mildbeard> I understand the objections jake has raised. They are serious issues and deserve to be dealt with.

[22:24] <+Zacqary> I do too.

[22:25] <+mildbeard> That said, I'm completely opposed to simply removing this value and leaving nothing in its place.

[22:25] <+Zacqary> As am I.

[22:25] <@teamcoltra> I don't think the Pirate Party should be in the business of making people "feel better", if the science
supports conclusively a platform point... then we need to embrace it

[22:25] <+jake> I would be open to hearing alternate wordings brought forward at a later time - or would happily take back alternate wordings to my people and see what they think.

[22:25] <+mildbeard> We have major parties that actually don't believe in anything, and that have contradictory positions based on nothing more than rhetoric. The point of that value is that we need something more than that.

[22:27] <+mildbeard> On the other hand, it would be possible to take the words in the "values" section (not just this value) and
twist them into something pretty horrible if we had cynical people who didn't know the difference between right and wrong.

[22:27] <@teamcoltra> Btw, California voted in favour of this concept when it was proposed before the constitution was passed.

[22:27] <+Zacqary> People can change their minds after thinking about things.

[22:27] <BradyMobile> Falkvinge's pirate wheel suggests that which is ' necessary, effective, proportionate, and evidence-based'.

[22:27] <+Bosun> Is this the point where we discuss post-modernism?

[22:27] <@teamcoltra> BradyMobile identify please?

[22:28] <+jake> Bosun, I hope not, unless we want our meeting to run on into infintiy

[22:28] <BradyMobile> Brady Dibble, Washington

[22:28] == mode/#pnc [+v BradyMobile] by teamcoltra

[22:28] <+Zacqary> I always thought we were a rather metamodernist party.

[22:28] <+Zacqary> Actually, never mind, let's not get into this.

[22:28] <+Zacqary> Shit shit shit abort.

[22:29] <Deamon> I'm postmetaultrasupermodernist

[22:29] <+mildbeard> So wait, that was only #1 of California's major issues right?

[22:29] <@teamcoltra> I'm a Pirate

[22:29] <+jake> Can we rephrase Value 6 as expressing an openness to dialog and debate about ideas; a willingness to give all people a chance both to be heard and to lead

[22:29] <@teamcoltra> jake you have the option to make a motion on #1

[22:29] <+Zacqary> That's Value 7.

[22:30] <@teamcoltra> though it doesn't seem popular... you can propose an amendment to the constituion

[22:30] <+jake> I dont have wording

[22:30] <@teamcoltra> kk

[22:30] <+Bosun> put the word 'democracy' in it

[22:30] <+jake> here's what I'm saying to mildbeard mostly

[22:30] <@teamcoltra> just wanted you to know that no one can prevent you from making a motion

[22:30] <+jake> If you could take out some of the stronger language in value 6 and roll some language into value 7, I believe you could maintain much of what you're trying to say without making the party seem obsessed with scientific rationality

[22:31] <+Zacqary> Bosun, I think democracy ought to be the logical conclusion of our values, not our values itself. It's a method. If a better system than democracy somehow comes along we should remain open to it.

[22:31] <+jake> that sort of amendment, if proposed and accepted, would allow california to ratify

[22:31] <+jake> I don't have wording for it right now; it should probably be thought about for at least a week

[22:31] <@teamcoltra> jake - It's my belief the party /should/ be obsessed with scientific rationality

[22:32] <+mildbeard> I think we can come up with a wording that would address the concern.

[22:32] <@teamcoltra> maybe not "obsessed" but highly dedicated

[22:32] <@kusanagi> obsessed is a very strong word.

[22:32] <+mildbeard> However I also feel that the concerns really wouldn't be a problem in view of the other core values in the document.

[22:32] <+Bosun> It is a constitution, not stone tablets from god.

[22:32] <+BradyMobile> Belief is a dangerous word.

[22:32] <+Zacqary> I think the problem with scientific rationality is that you have people like the hilariously-named Reason
magazine claiming that as their ideology, and ruining it for all the other actually rational people in the world.

[22:32] <+jake> just to give a counbterpoint to that Travis, here in California we're working with a lot of artists and musicians
who are very excited to be part of the party. that's not a fitting description of them. So I think it might be best for the party to leave room for individual discretiuon, on what we choose to be obsessed with

[22:33] <+jake> at least to a state level

[22:34] <+jake> so we had 1 more concern

[22:34] <+Bosun> Empirical evidence ..

[22:34] <+mildbeard> so there's a specific objection to science and meritocracy in value 6.

[22:34] <+mildbeard> actually post-ideological too.

[22:34] <+jake> this time it's an addition. we feel that the values as written do not expresses the progressive social agenda of
the Pirate Party. If we are going to be the party of the Internet, we need to champion things like access to the Internet, which can be couched in the greater framework of progressivism and social welfare. The CPP has always felt this is at the core of being a pirate.

[22:35] <+jake> so we'd propose the additional value:We believe in a progressive government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of democracy, including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet

[22:35] <+BradyMobile> Scientific reasoning is a neutral tool.

[22:35] <@teamcoltra> jake - to me it seems that California is taking a very "american" view of the word "science".

[22:35] <+BradyMobile> The method can be applied to humanitarian purposes.

[22:35] <+Zacqary> Well, actually, if you look at the numbers, a progressive government IS the approach that works best.

[22:36] <+Zacqary> So..that's value 6 right there.

[22:36] <+Bosun> Do you object to the word scientific or empirical reasoning as a philisophical point?

[22:36] <@teamcoltra> Zacqary exactly

[22:36] <+jake> theres no particular word we object to...

[22:36] <+Zacqary> Jake, I think what you're afraid of is bullshitters cherry-picking statistics and distorting facts rather than
actual hard evidence. Because actual hard evidence supports exactly what you're asking for.

[22:36] <+mildbeard> Well, there's a specific reason why the progressive social issues other than equality weren't proposed for
inclusion in the Constitution, so it makes sense to state what that is.

[22:37] <+jake> what I'm afraid of is not the bullshitters per se; it's the belief in infallible categories of truth like science that permit bullshitters such authority to peddle their bullshit

[22:37] <@teamcoltra> Zacqary lol your on a roll - I will just stay out of your way you are answering everything how I would ;)

[22:37] <+Bosun> Wiki the Wisconsin Idea.

[22:38] <@teamcoltra> True science cannot be bullshitted.

[22:38] <+jake> hard evidence is not a thing when applied to social science

[22:38] <@teamcoltra> It can be backed up

[22:38] <+jake> politics is not geology

[22:38] <@kusanagi> jake is right.

[22:38] <+mildbeard> The Pirate Party is a coalition of at least two very distinct ideologies - one is progressive and the other is
libertarian. There are a lot of libertarians out there who wouldn't be comfortable with a progressive social agenda. I don't know if this is really a problem, but that's why I never proposed to put any social progressive language into the core values.

[22:38] <+jake> I think its hugely irresponsible to be a party based in and around participation through the internet that doesn't take a progressive stance on things like access to the internet

[22:39] <+jake> the libertarian "let people figure out connections for themselves" is simply not appropriate

[22:39] <+mildbeard> Access to the internet is definitely a core value and it's in the pirate wheel. If it's not covered in the core values then we should add it.

[22:39] <+Zacqary> It's one of the conclusions of the Pirate Wheel.

[22:39] <+Zacqary> So it can be in our platform.

[22:39] <@teamcoltra> jake I agree 100% with that... and every paper I have read on Internet access has shown children who have access to internet connections perform better in school

[22:40] <+mildbeard> The Massachusetts Pirate Party is very socially progressive, and we would vote in favor of social progressive policies.

[22:40] <@teamcoltra> Science is a way to combat some of the libertarian social things that are just not founded in truth.

[22:40] <+mildbeard> Hold on, are we talking about item #1 (value 6) or item #2 (add progressive value)?

[22:41] <+BradyMobile> Science can go either way depending on your interpretation of the results.

[22:41] <+jake> neither is being voted on at this time, it's a general discussion of CPP's concerns

[22:41] <+mildbeard> OK but I'm getting confused so I'd like to discuss them separately.

[22:41] <+jake> that makes sense

[22:41] <+jake> lets start with the former

[22:42] <+Bosun> Science is a method not a result.

[22:42] <+jake> Can the language just get toned down? "Policy and decision-making must be based on evidence and scientific
reasoning." is sooo strong. You honestly believe politicians should never do what feels ethically right?

[22:42] <+mildbeard> On item 1 (value 6) I am still not sure that I understand in sufficient detail what California's objection is, in order to be able to propose alternative wording that would solve the problem and still keep the underlying point.

[22:43] <+jake> "The approach that works best, or the person who does the best job, must be chosen over the alternatives." is also
too strong. It prevents one from being in favor of Affirmative Action, for example

[22:43] <+BradyMobile> Ethics are subjective.

[22:43] <+BradyMobile> e.g. Legitimate Rape

[22:43] <+mildbeard> FIrst of all, it absolutely doesn't prevent one from being in favor of affirmative action!!!

[22:44] <+mildbeard> We have a core value 7 which talks about equality. If affirmative action is a good way to promote equality
then it's just fine.

[22:44] <+BradyMobile> If affirmative action is proven to produce the intended result.

[22:44] <+BradyMobile> Not just because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy

[22:45] <+BradyMobile> Mildbeard, was this your intention?

[22:45] <@teamcoltra> Exactly

[22:45] <@teamcoltra> Our policies shouldn't be based on making people feel better

[22:45] <+jake> then the two values contradict. Because in the interest of value 7, we can take someone who is not scientifically speaking the best for the job (in terms of test scores, experience) in favor of someone who benefits the diversity of the program

[22:45] <@teamcoltra> they should be about achieving positive results

[22:45] <+jake> value 6 says we must choose who is best for the job based on science

[22:46] <+Zacqary> The benefit from diversity outweighs the benefit from choosing the absolute best best best best person.

[22:46] <+mildbeard> Here's what we shouldn't do. We shouldn't adopt a policy because we're all liberal, and it makes us feel less
guilty about some people suffering. We should look at all the alternatives and try them out, and go with something that works. In the current political climate, it's "us against them" and as long as we defeat the opposing party it really doesn't seem to matter very much whether we are screwing up people's lives and making the world a horrible place

[22:46] <+mildbeard> If affirmative action works then we should be in favor of it.

[22:46] <+jake> then the wording needs to express our lack of political cynicism

[22:46] <@teamcoltra> Exactly, and if it doesn't... let's find something that actually HELPS minorities.

[22:46] <+mildbeard> If we go with something else, then it's becaus we have found that it is actually a more effective way of
promoting our core value of equality (value 7).

[22:47] <@teamcoltra> (not saying it doesn't, just saying IF it doesn't)

[22:47] <+Bosun> If it works. In some ways it has, but we still have racialy segregated slums.

[22:48] <+jake> the problem is that the debate will continue to rage about the exact science of 'whether or not it works'. because
sociology is not exact science. This is why the CPP believes it is important for us to be able to make decisions on purely ethical grounds

[22:48] <+jake> which value 6 disallows

[22:49] <+mildbeard> The intent of value 6 is not to disallow ethical grounds.

[22:49] <+mildbeard> So we can change that aspect.

[22:49] <+jake> then perhaps it is worded too strongly

[22:49] <@teamcoltra> I don't want to get into the subject too much -- but income based affirmitive action seems to be much more
promising than race based AA. However, by doing away with race based AA you run into the "emotional" impact of removing something you gave to minorities and redistributing it. This is what I want to avoid.

[22:49] <+Bosun> Can we add ethics into it?

[22:50] <+BradyMobile> Purely ethical grounds scares me.

[22:50] <@teamcoltra> Why are they exclusive of each other?

[22:50] <+jake> if value 6 can be reworded as a commitment to earnest and sincere policymaking based on what we feel is the best
course of action

[22:50] <@teamcoltra> if you are helping people and you can prove it, then you are doing what's most ethical

[22:50] <+jake> haha

[22:50] <+mildbeard> Let me take a long hard look at the wording of value 6, taking this concern into account, and come back with a
proposed rewording.

[22:50] <+jake> then Monsanto is a saint

[22:50] <+jake> :-)

[22:50] <+jake> ccause they own lots of research labs

[22:51] <+jake> that specialize in making proof of thingas

[22:51] <+BradyMobile> In the short run, maybe.

[22:51] <+BradyMobile> But the party is holistic

[22:51] <+jake> I agree with mildbeard

[22:51] <+Zacqary> Monsanto's very good at sounding like they know what the hell they're talking about.

[22:51] <+Zacqary> But not actually.

[22:51] <+jake> we should take up this debate at a later date when we have actual amendment wording

[22:52] <+jake> can we move to the second issue?

[22:52] <@teamcoltra> So we will come back to issue 1

[22:52] <+mildbeard> yes

[22:52] <@teamcoltra> lets move on

[22:52] <+jake> alright, the proposed added value

[22:52] <+jake> We believe in a progressive government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of
democracy, including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet.

[22:53] <+Zacqary> Again, I don't see how that's not a logical conclusion of the values we already have.

[22:53] <+jake> this is definitely part of CPP's core structure. We'd like to see something like it in the national language

[22:53] <+jake> it may be a logical conclusion

[22:53] <+jake> but its not said in any of the other values...

[22:53] <+mildbeard> There shouldn't be any sort of problem with the parts about health care, the Internet, and education.

[22:54] <+Zacqary> The values aren't supposed to dictate platform points.

[22:54] <+mildbeard> except that...

[22:54] <+jake> there is nothing in the values as stated that implies governmental responsibility to the citizens to provide
infrastructure and services

[22:55] <+mildbeard> So is there anyone right now on the PNC who would have a problem with government spending on health care, and
with terms like "social institutions", "progressive government" and so on?

[22:56] <+BradyMobile> I have an issue with the term progressive.

[22:56] <+jake> that can be omitted if the rest stands

[22:56] <+BradyMobile> It can be defined in non-pirate ways.

[22:56] <+mildbeard> BradyMobile, can you explain?

[22:57] <+jake> We believe in a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of democracy,
including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet.

[22:57] <+BradyMobile> I do believe certain republican factions have also stated using the word.

[22:57] <+Bosun> I would prefer 'support' or 'advocate for' rather than 'belive in'

[22:58] <+jake> either is fine

[22:58] <+jake> 'stand for' is the preferred term in constitution as written

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[22:58] <+mildbeard> OK, but BradyMobile do you have an underlying issue with any of the concepts or is it just the word "progressive"?

[22:58] <+Bosun> OK

[22:58] <+Zacqary> I have a problem with terms in general. The more used a term is, the more I say we should avoid saying it. Because words like "progressive" have a zillion different definitions, some good, some pejorative, none consistent.

[22:58] <+jake> "We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of democracy, including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet."

[22:59] <+MrSquared> Aight guys, I have to go

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[22:59] <+Bosun> universall access ...

[22:59] <+jake> I like that

[23:00] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutionsnecessary for the broader goals of democracy, including
but not limited to health care, education, and universal access to the Internet.

[23:00] <+Zacqary> I agree with that entirely, Jake, but that's too specific for a value.

[23:00] <+mildbeard> I am worried that health care, education and internet access are not values but specific policies. I think we
need a core value that expresses the underlying idea (which is very important) but just naming the policies may not quite capture
the essential point.

[23:01] <+BradyMobile> I agree with mildbeard on this.

[23:01] <+Zacqary> Something about empowerment, maybe?

[23:01] <+jake> thats fine. Then I propose we keep the first sentence and expand from there

[23:01] <+BradyMobile> What about 'humanism'?

[23:01] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutionsnecessary forthe broader goals of democracy

[23:01] <+mildbeard> When we talk about health care, education and Internet access we are really saying that everyone is equally important and it's not acceptable that the few should be lying on golden beds while too many are starving.

[23:01] <+Zacqary> Even democracy I'd say is too specific, because that implies a specific system of government.

[23:02] <+jake> oh come on :P

[23:02] <+jake> thats too far

[23:02] <+mildbeard> I agree with Zacqary on that,

[23:02] <+Zacqary> Well, Falkvinge's with me on that one.

[23:02] <+jake> our party seems tied to the idea of democracy

[23:02] <+jake> how can we not be?

[23:02] <+Zacqary> http://falkvinge.net/pirate-wheel Democracy's in like Tier 3

[23:02] <+Zacqary> Because democracy just happens to be the best tool for the job we can think of right now.

[23:03] <+Zacqary> Operative word being tool.

[23:03] <+Zacqary> We choose the best tools to achieve our goals. We don't make tools goals in and of themselves.

[23:03] <+mildbeard> The "health care issue" is not so much about medicine as about equality. In some ways we have a great health
care system but too many people don't have access to it. We don't need to improve health care as such, just to make it universally accessible. It is an equality issue.

[23:04] <QuazarGuy> at the core, the Pirate Party is a civil right movement

[23:04] <+Zacqary> It's also a resilience issue. Society falls apart unless everyone's healthy. Come to think of it, I don't think
we fully cover resilience in the values.

[23:04] <+Zacqary> Or maybe we do because of value 6.

[23:04] <+Zacqary> What works best.

[23:04] <+jake> I thought so too QuazarGuy

[23:05] <+Zacqary> So let's say "civil rights" instead of "democracy"?

[23:06] <+jake> but that's not what we mean

[23:06] <+Zacqary> Citizen empowerment?

[23:06] <QuazarGuy> they aren't really interchangable

[23:06] <+Zacqary> How's that?

[23:06] <+jake> I suppose we could say citizen empowerment...but id really rather just say democracy

[23:06] <+mildbeard> I think we need to have a strong underlying core value about equality that says everyone is equally important
and we need a government that values the basic welfare of every citizen equally. And then we can adopt specific policies for things like health care, education, Internet and many other things that would support that value. Even affirmative action.

[23:06] <QuazarGuy> civil rights are freedom, democracy is a method of control

[23:06] <+Zacqary> We have equality in there.

[23:07] <+mildbeard> Zacqary yes we do, but it's not enough as it stands.

[23:07] <+jake> we have equality expressed in terms of NEGATIVE rights. The government will treat all people the same. the
government won't allow discrimination. What we need is an affirmation of POSITIVE rights. the gov will act to level the playing field.

[23:07] <+mildbeard> it does say a level playing field.

[23:07] <+jake> the gov will provide health care to the poor; will get internet to places that dont have it

[23:07] <+Zacqary> "We believe in equality and a level playing field."

[23:08] <+Bosun> We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment of the people, a society
were the humblest and weakest person

[23:08] <+Bosun> can enjoy the highest civil, economic, and social rights that the

[23:08] <+Bosun> biggest and most powerful possess.

[23:08] <+Zacqary> LOVE IT.

[23:08] <@kusanagi> yes!

[23:08] <+mildbeard> I think that's much closer to the mark.

[23:08] <+Bosun> Its a hashed A. Philip Randolph quote

[23:09] <+Zacqary> Honestly, what we have there is enough for me, but I'd be willing to add that ninth value just to make it more
rock-solid and leave less to interpretation.

[23:09] <+Zacqary> Do you like Bosun's wording, jake?

[23:09] <QuazarGuy> add political to it

[23:10] <+jake> I like the first part

[23:10] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary forthe empowerment of the people"

[23:10] <+Zacqary> So just that?

[23:11] <QuazarGuy> for the equal empowerment?

[23:11] <+jake> the second part doesn't fully make sense to me. cause we're not saying everyone is entitled to the best health
care, or the best internet, that all people should have the same economic privileges

[23:11] <+jake> we're not anti-capitalists

[23:12] <+mildbeard> That's a good point.

[23:12] <+jake> but the state should provide a minimum for its people...the idea of programs like medicaid and education grants is not to make society wholly level, but to provide safety nets

[23:12] <QuazarGuy> there should just be a floor that no one can fall below

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[23:12] <+Bosun> rights do not equal economic equity

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[23:13] <+mildbeard> The enumeration of specific policies is generally out of scope for the Constitution. For example we are all
about Copyright, but we don't mention it in the Constitution. We say "open culture". That's why I'm uncomfortable with words like "health care" and "education".

[23:13] <+Zacqary> Can we please ban the word "capitalism"? Also "socialism". They've lost all meaning.

[23:14] <@kusanagi> i don't think we can bar words from being used.

[23:14] <+Bosun> How about: We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment of all the people

[23:14] <+Zacqary> It's a figure of speech.

[23:15] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment of all people" is fine with me

[23:15] <@kusanagi> I like that as well.

[23:15] <+jake> can we say empowerment, health, and well-being of all people?

[23:16] <@kusanagi> we can say whatever you will agree on.

[23:16] <+jake> well thats what I would like :-)

[23:16] <@kusanagi> also, as travis pinged out, i'm stepping up as chair

[23:16] <+mildbeard> cool

[23:16] <+jake> anyway those are the CPPs two concerns

[23:16] <+jake> we dont have to vote about either now

[23:17] <+jake> there are also minor linguistic issues which we could ratify in spite of and address at a later date

[23:17] <+Zacqary> How many ratifying members are here right now?

[23:17] <@kusanagi> Ok.

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[23:17] <QuazarGuy> the states will members will need more time to make sure their states agree

[23:17] <@kusanagi> Ok, he's back

[23:17] <+Zacqary> Oh right that

[23:18] <QuazarGuy> the members*

[23:18] <+Zacqary> Okay, let's not vote right now.

[23:18] <Sacha> All full members can vote until the six months is up, a reminder from what we found in the logs earlier

[23:18] <Sacha> Full member =/= ratifying yet

[23:19] <+Zacqary> So the wording we need to take back to our states is: "We stand for a government that promotes social
institutions necessary for the empowerment, health, and well-being of all people." Correct?

[23:19] <+jake> yup

[23:19] <+Bosun> Seems like it ...

[23:19] <+jake> and we also want to come up with some kind of revised text for 6

[23:20] <+Zacqary> I'd be willing to strike the "scientific reasoning" portion of that but keep "evidence". I mean, evidence isn't
a bad thing, right?

[23:20] <+Zacqary> Also maybe strike "the person who does the best job" just to avoid confusion re: affirmative action.

[23:21] <+jake> there's enough of it that warrants change that I dont think we're gonna come up with an agreed wording on this one
just now

[23:21] <+jake> lets just try to come up with some kind of proposal for next week

[23:21] <+Zacqary> Okay.

[23:22] <+Zacqary> Anything else?

[23:23] <+jake> thats all from me

[23:24] <+Zacqary> So is it AOB time, Cap'n?

[23:25] <@teamcoltra> yes

[23:25] <+Bosun> #usahcc is the US ad hoc Convention Committee

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[23:27] <@teamcoltra> Anything else that needs to be discussed?

[23:28] <@teamcoltra> or anyone want to motion to adjourn?

[23:29] <+Zacqary> Motion to adjourn.

[23:29] <+mildbeard> second

[23:29] <@teamcoltra> in favour?

[23:29] <+Zacqary> Aye

[23:29] <Deamon> aye

[23:29] <+Bosun> aye

[23:30] <+mildbeard> aye

[23:30] <@teamcoltra> Well we failed quorum

[23:30] <@teamcoltra> but it's alright

[23:31] <@teamcoltra> meeting adjourned

PNC 8/22/12

2012-08-29T20:28:06Z

Kusanagi: Corrected the first part with attendance, etc. Added an officers section. Made the logs readable and not textual vomit.

:'''Agenda PNC MEETING'''
::'''--- 08/22/2012 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/22/12

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*Jake Ziering, California
*Kyle DeVore, Oregon
*Zacqary Adam Green, New York
*Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin
*Jarod Smith, Georgia
*Bradley Hall, Florida
*Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts
*Brady Dibble, Washington

*excused
none

*unexcused
none

*probation
Oklahoma

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====

James Eastman Jr., Michigan
Cullen Matthews, Illinois
Benjamin Sauerhaft Coplon, Pennsylvania

==== 1.3 - Officers of the PNC ====
Travis McCrea, ID, Captain
Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, First Mate
Amanda Johnson, MI, Acting Secretary at the request of Jeff Talada, WA, Secretary

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting opened at: 09:00pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting closed at: 11:31pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting chaired by Travis McCrea/Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Secretary for this meeting is Amanda Johnson
*Quorum is established: Members 8 out of 8 present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===
====4.1 - Short report of the board members ====

=====Massachusetts=====
Liquid feedback is going well and there are a few alpha testers. New Hampshire now has a state party.

=====Washington=====
No news

=====Oregon=====
Working on recruiting friends and making a facebook page.

=====Georgia====
No news

=====Florida=====
Kicking butt and taking names. Starting to work on No Safe Harbor 2 and working on getting ahold of florida.pirate-party.us.

=====New York=====
No news

=====California=====
Working on music project and internships. The Pirate Hour is hosting a prominent libertarian this week and California has a few reservations about the PNC constitution that will be discussed later in the meeting.

=====Wisconsin=====
Tweeting and getting support on facebook. Continuing to work on web infrastructure.

==== 4.2 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====
No news

=====Bylaws Committee=====
There is a rough draft of the by laws available at 'https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k6HyleGs_5009RlEgxW-wXmh4zSZeCJo1zBJkzTRoW8/edit?pli=1'

Voting on the bylaws will be held next week. The bylaws committee will add a specific date to the bylaws.

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===

==== 5.1 ad-hoc Convention Committee ====
Motion to create a convention committe
Passed with 5.5 aye
Chaired by Boson

==== 5.2 California's concerns about the Constitution ====
Problem 1: The strictly science based approach to decision making.
Discussion will be moved to another time after a proposed amendment has been created.

Problem 2: Expanding the core values to include health care, education and access to the internet.
Representatives will take this amendment "We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment, health, and well-being of all people," back to their states for discussion and voting next week.

=== - AOB - ===

Motion to adjourn meeting
Quorum failed, captain ended the meeting anyway.

*Next meeting: TBA at 9PM EDT
*Meeting closed:11:31 pm

Log:
[21:00] <@teamcoltra> I call the meeting to order lets do roll call

[21:01] <Deamon> James Eastman Jr., Michigan

[21:01] == LolItsAnAcronym [~Fagulox@298-730-783-26.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #pnc

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v Deamon] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <MrSquared> Kyle DeVore, Oregon

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v MrSquared] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <jake> jake ziering, california

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v jake] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <CullenMatthews> CullenMatthews, Illinois

[21:01] <Zacqary> Zacqary Adam Green, New York

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v CullenMatthews] by teamcoltra

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [+v Zacqary] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <+Deamon> again, pretty sure Michigan doesn't get voice since it's observer status

[21:01] == mode/#pnc [-v Deamon] by teamcoltra

[21:01] <Bosun> Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin

[21:02] == mode/#pnc [+v Bosun] by teamcoltra

[21:02] <Deamon> thank you

[21:02] <passstab> kbenjamin sauerhaft coplon Pennsylvania

[21:03] <Sacha> Amanda Johnson, Michigan. Deamon is the rep tonight.

[21:03] <@teamcoltra> So tonight's meeting has 5 out of 8 states present

[21:03] <@kusanagi> Lindsay-Anne Brunner, New York.

[21:04] <@teamcoltra> Sacha you are tonights Quartermaster at the request of Jeffery Talada

[21:04] <@teamcoltra> if you accept the responsibility

[21:04] == LolItsAnAcronym [~Fagulox@298-730-783-26.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]

[21:04] <Sacha> I accept and am on time this week ;)

[21:04] <@teamcoltra> Sweet. So then lets review last weeks minutes http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12

[21:05] <@teamcoltra> Once you have read and accepted last weeks minutes just say so

[21:05] <jarod_> Jarod Smith GA

[21:06] == mode/#pnc [+v jarod_] by teamcoltra

[21:06] <+Bosun> read and accepted

[21:06] <Deamon> Read

[21:06] <+jake> read and accepted

[21:06] <Rush> Bradley Hall, Florida

[21:07] <+CullenMatthews> read and accepted

[21:07] <+MrSquared> read and accepted

[21:07] <Rush> accepted and read

[21:07] == mode/#pnc [+v Brendan] by teamcoltra

[21:07] == mode/#pnc [-v Brendan] by teamcoltra

[21:07] <+Zacqary> Read and accepted

[21:07] == mode/#pnc [+v Rush] by teamcoltra

[21:08] <@teamcoltra> Okay let's do reports. Oregon is up first

[21:09] <mildbeard> Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts

[21:09] <@teamcoltra> MrSquared

[21:09] == mode/#pnc [+v mildbeard] by teamcoltra

[21:09] <+MrSquared> Yep, one sec

[21:10] <@teamcoltra> ( mildbeard I will go to you next )

[21:10] <+MrSquared> I am still in process in making a facebook page for ORPP, and I am going to update our website to have
important information as well

[21:10] <+MrSquared> also I am looking to recruit one of my friends to help me out with this stuff

[21:10] <+MrSquared> that's all

[21:11] <@teamcoltra> Thanks MrSquared

[21:11] <@teamcoltra> mildbeard - Whats up with Mass?

[21:11] <+mildbeard> Our liquid feedback testing has gone well as far as I can see.

[21:11] <+mildbeard> We have a "Massachusetts" section but we also have a "United States" section and a few alpha testers from
outside of Mass volunteered to help.

[21:12] <+mildbeard> There is now a New Hampshire Pirate Party.

[21:12] <+mildbeard> Both Jamie and I have been away so there's not much to report.

[21:12] == mode/#pnc [-v CullenMatthews] by teamcoltra

[21:12] <+mildbeard> that's it for Mass.

[21:12] <@kusanagi> Yay NH!

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> I have been talking to NH Pirates, dave (right?) seems to have a good plan

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> Thanks

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> Chris

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> not dave

[21:13] <+mildbeard> yep

[21:13] <+mildbeard> Chris helped found MAPP.

[21:13] <@teamcoltra> Georiga / jarod_

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[21:13] <@teamcoltra> your up

[21:14] <+jarod_> no news

[21:14] <@teamcoltra> Brad/Rush Florida

[21:15] <+Rush> In Florida we are kicking butt and taking names. We're preparing to start actually working on NSH2 in a few weeks.
We also were able to talk to Chris Sheats long enough to take control of florida.pirate-party.us. Other than that, we're rocking.

[21:15] <+Rush> Done

[21:15] <@teamcoltra> :) Thanks Rush

[21:16] <@teamcoltra> New York / Zacqary

[21:16] <+Zacqary> Nothing to report. Unless I'm missing something, kusanagi?

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> jake you will be up if kusanagi has nothing else

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> Okay well since she's not replying

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> go ahead jake

[21:18] <@teamcoltra> whats going on in California

[21:19] <+jake> we don't have quite so much this week :) We're continuing work on our music project and internship proposals; we
have a pirate hour this thursday with a prominent libertarian who we get to debate about some points of disagreement; and we've gone over the constitution and have some suggestions for potential revisions

[21:19] == kusanagi [~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]

[21:19] <+jake> if you're interested in either attending the pirate hour or being part of the music project, shoot an email to calpirateparty@gmail.co

[21:19] <+jake> m

[21:19] <+jake> done

[21:20] <@teamcoltra> Thanks jake

[21:20] <@teamcoltra> Bosun / Cheese State

[21:20] <+Bosun> Slow backend work on our web infrastructure. Tweeting our brains out. Upward trends continue on FB. Too many
students and teacher members here preparing for school. Nothing else to report this week.

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[21:21] == mode/#pnc [+o kusanagi] by ChanServ

[21:21] <@teamcoltra> Sweet, thanks Bosun

[21:21] <@teamcoltra> Now is Caleb not here, or using a screenname that I don't recognize?

[21:22] <@teamcoltra> Okay I am assuming not, passstab or anyone else who is familliar with IT want to say anything?

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[21:22] <@teamcoltra> matuck- maybe?

[21:23] <@kusanagi> He's here

[21:23] <@kusanagi> Takyoji[mobile]: IT!

[21:23] <Deamon> Beuller?

[21:23] <passstab> whoa i'm familiar with IT?

[21:23] <@teamcoltra> I thought you were doing a project in IT

[21:23] <@kusanagi> Apparently not lol

[21:23] <@teamcoltra> :P I am just trying to get anyone who has anything to report on IT at all... but it looks like we will come
back to it

[21:24] <@teamcoltra> Bylaws Committee - I know Sacha sent an email to the SAB so I will let her start

[21:25] <Sacha> Yay!

[21:25] <Sacha> I made up some by laws and sent them on the SAB list

[21:25] <Sacha> http://piratepad.net/QARAiTYdmT

[21:25] <Sacha> Here they are, I hope everyone was able to take a look at them

[21:25] <Sacha> and i'm not sure if we are going to discuss them now or... what we are going to do with them

[21:25] <Sacha> but they exist

[21:26] <Sacha> and that is all I plan on putting in there right now

[21:26] <Sacha> so... whatever El capitan wants to do I am down with

[21:26] <@teamcoltra> Did you set out an election bylaw? ie when elections will be held?

[21:26] <Sacha> No, we agree on two months prior right?

[21:27] <Sacha> For some reason I thought that was a constitutional amendment

[21:27] <Sacha> ~*adding*~

[21:27] <@teamcoltra> It was a constitutional amendment

[21:27] <@teamcoltra> which we set the requirement to have a bylaw dictating the time

[21:27] <@teamcoltra> Which is what I have been waiting on since I have no legal framework to call an election

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[21:28] <Sacha> Ahhh okay

[21:28] == jarod_ [webchat@68.66.mh.twl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]

[21:28] <+mildbeard> So is it a simple majority for the PNC to approve the bylaws - whenever we get to that?

[21:28] <+mildbeard> And also a simple majority to amend later?

[21:28] <@teamcoltra> Yeah

[21:28] <@kusanagi> I believe so

[21:29] <+mildbeard> k

[21:29] <@teamcoltra> I would suggest we go through these bylaws and just pass them

[21:29] <@teamcoltra> or not pass them

[21:29] <@teamcoltra> Most of them are basically enforcing the systems that we already have in place

[21:29] <+mildbeard> you mean individually, or all as a group?

[21:29] <+jake> dont we need to pass the constitution before we start bylaws?

[21:29] <Sacha> Jake We already did a few weeks ago

[21:29] <@kusanagi> jake: yeah, I think so.

[21:30] <@kusanagi> No, he means as a state

[21:30] <+Zacqary> Not everyone's ratified it yet.

[21:30] <+jake> I see

[21:30] <+mildbeard> The PNC approved the constitution but member states need to ratify before they can vote on the bylaws.

[21:30] <Sacha> I am confused about how that pertains to the by laws

[21:30] <@teamcoltra> But current members who have ratified the constitution should be able to vote on bylaws

[21:30] <+jake> gotcha

[21:30] <+mildbeard> what about at-large states?

[21:31] <Sacha> Who are the current members? Just for when I am voting so that I can get it down on a notebook

[21:31] <+Zacqary> Also, I'd prefer not to vote on these bylaws yet because I'm still working on some structural frameworks I'd
like to propose.

[21:31] <+Zacqary> I can have these by next week.

[21:31] <Sacha> Mildbeard We have allowed them to vote in the past

[21:31] <+mildbeard> I'm wondering if they have to ratify, is all.

[21:31] <Sacha> I would be fine with allowing people to edit for a week if they have things they wish to change/add

[21:31] <@teamcoltra> Yeah mildbeard I honestly don't know, I was going to just accept their votes... but they have to ratify if
they become full members

[21:32] <@teamcoltra> its required now

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[21:32] == mode/#pnc [+o kusi] by ChanServ

[21:32] <+jake> what is the process for making changes to the constitution at this point?

[21:32] <Sacha> Mildbeard I think it is required for them to become a state party but they are not considered parties so they can
still vote. The ratification is just neccessary to become a full member from my understanding.

[21:32] <Sacha> Jake Making a motion and having I believe a 2/3rds to amend

[21:32] <+mildbeard> OK probably. I'm going to read it just to familiarize myself...

[21:32] <+jake> and I can both make a motion and vote, even before ratifying?

[21:33] <Sacha> How long was the exception we gave states?

[21:33] <@teamcoltra> I would also be willing to accept all states who have not ratified the constitution the same as at-large

[21:33] <@teamcoltra> it's stupid to not let them vote, but let at larges vote

[21:33] <@kusanagi> teamcoltra: that's what we've been doing, iirc.

[21:33] <Sacha> I thought that was how we were going to do it lol, they would just become glorified at larges

[21:34] <@teamcoltra> Exactly

[21:34] <@teamcoltra> I just don't think it's come up where I have had to do that

[21:34] <+Bosun> To further discussion, Wisconsin is willing to act as a conduit for any non ratified state who wishes to make a
motion.

[21:34] <Sacha> How long was the exception?

[21:34] <+jake> alright

[21:34] <Sacha> And how long has it been since we voted on the consitution

[21:35] <@kusanagi> It was 6 months, I believe.

[21:35] <Sacha> also what states are full members so that I can write that down for when I am counting votes

[21:35] <@kusanagi> I could be wrong

[21:36] <@teamcoltra> We accepted it July 25th

[21:36] <@teamcoltra> I thought it was 2 months

[21:36] <+Bosun> Look at the minutes.

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[21:36] <@teamcoltra> I am looking through them now Bosun

[21:37] <Sacha> <+QuazarGuy> "III.2.G. Ratify the PNC Constitution" <+mildbeard> We should add a time frame. <@teamcoltra> Ohh I
see <@teamcoltra> I was thinking, nevermind :P <+mildbeard> "III.2.G Ratify the PNC Constitution within 6 months of its adoption, or prior to the member state's admission, whichever is later."

[21:37] <Sacha> 6 months

[21:37] <Sacha> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_7/25/12

[21:38] <@teamcoltra> Yeah I was just getting to that spot

[21:38] <Sacha> ctrl + f <3

[21:38] <+mildbeard> It doesn't actually say that.

[21:38] <+mildbeard> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/Pirate_National_Committee_%28PNC%29/Constitution#ARTICLE_III:_Membership

[21:38] <Sacha> Yup, it needs to be changed

[21:38] <Sacha> because as I remember Zach wasn't in and we couldn't edit without him

[21:39] <Sacha> Could you add me to the people that can edit that and i'll cross reference the amendments with the wording this
week?

[21:39] <@teamcoltra> I think matuck- gave me editing privilages

[21:39] <@teamcoltra> Do you guys want to pause for a second to update it, or someone just query me and I will do it after

[21:39] <@kusanagi_mobi> We all have editing privs now

[21:39] <+mildbeard> Update it.

[21:39] <+mildbeard> We passed it, and it's important to have it right.

[21:39] <Sacha> Wait to edit it

[21:40] <Sacha> Until we find all of the errors

[21:40] <@teamcoltra> I am just going to update it

[21:40] <Sacha> Do you plan on going through the amendments and stuff or would you like me to and then send the notes to you?

[21:40] <Sacha> Or kusinagi can cuz she is the firstmate or someone else etc.

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> Oh... if there is a big list of things

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> then just compile a list for now

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> I can do it.

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> But just a note

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> Okay thanks kusanagi_mobi

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> We all have editing privs now

[21:41] <@kusanagi_mobi> Anyone with a wiki account

[21:41] <@teamcoltra> Well let's keep going

[21:42] <Sacha> What do we wish to do with the bylaws

[21:43] <Sacha> I believe that is where we were

[21:43] <@teamcoltra> So do we want to pass bylaws or not? I would be in favour of it... otherwise it could be 6 months

[21:43] <+mildbeard> I'm not sure we're ready - maybe give us a week for final comments.

[21:43] <@teamcoltra> Who HAS ratified the Constitution?

[21:43] <+Bosun> Wisconsin

[21:43] <@kusanagi_mobi> NY, MA, WA..

[21:43] <@kusanagi_mobi> WI

[21:43] <+Zacqary> I'd like to wait till next week too because I'm still working on some stuff.

[21:44] <+Zacqary> And I think I'm still committee head, right?

[21:44] <+Zacqary> So.

[21:44] <+Zacqary> Yeah.

[21:44] <@teamcoltra> Zacqary :) Fair enough

[21:44] <Sacha> I am happy with waiting until next week, it will let me make it pretty

[21:44] <Sacha> Do we need a vote or are we good with this?

[21:44] <@teamcoltra> Can you guys include a date for elections (I would suggest September 5th)

[21:44] <@teamcoltra> in your bylaws

[21:44] <Sacha> No

[21:44] <Sacha> Unless it is something like

[21:44] <Sacha> "the second meeting of september"

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> No....

[21:45] <Sacha> or "the second wednesday" etc.

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> We specifically outlined this in the constitution

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> the general date was set in the constitution

[21:45] <@teamcoltra> but the exact date will be set by bylaw

[21:46] <Sacha> So we need to do a specific date

[21:46] <Sacha> Day and everything

[21:46] <@teamcoltra> yes

[21:46] <Sacha> What if the date ends up being on a saturday

[21:46] <Sacha> or a friday though

[21:47] <@kusanagi_mobi> So special meeting

[21:47] <@teamcoltra> It's a bylaw since it's so easy to be fixed every year

[21:47] <Sacha> or a terrible day for people to meet and vote

[21:47] <Sacha> That is so unnecessary though

[21:47] <Sacha> why fix something when we can do it right

[21:47] <Sacha> but we are screwed into it by the constitution

[21:47] <Sacha> I wish I had paid attention to that but nothing to do now I guess

[21:47] <@teamcoltra> You could set the date as "the third monday" or something

[21:47] <Sacha> We'll do it as we are required to do.

[21:47] <@teamcoltra> but it needs to be specific

[21:47] <+mildbeard> What exactly is the wording in the constitution?

[21:48] <Sacha> TeamColtra you mean like "21:45] <Sacha> or "the second wednesday" etc."

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> Sacha sorry I missed that - Yes that would be acceptable

[21:48] <+mildbeard> Can anyone point me to the exact language?

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> mildbeard

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> I am getting it

[21:48] <@teamcoltra> it was 2 weeks ago

[21:49] <Sacha> TeamColtra Kay, we will do it for sure then ^_^

[21:50] <Sacha> Also a quick notice to everyone: Is anyone having problems accessing the google docs? Because it is much more
efficient for the by laws and I would like to switch activity to that document if possible as that is where the editing is taking place.

[21:50] <@teamcoltra> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12#5_-_Agenda_Items

[21:50] <@teamcoltra> Vote held to amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly convention shall
be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws

[21:51] <+mildbeard> So a convention doesn't mean that it's an in-person event?

[21:51] <@teamcoltra> No, it would be an econvention

[21:51] <@teamcoltra> :)

[21:52] == kusanagi_mobi [~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]

[21:52] <@teamcoltra> Basically the convention is to elect our leadership and approve a national presidential candidate if needed

[21:52] <+mildbeard> That's pretty flexible language, so the bylaws can use any way of saying what the date is as long as it's
clear.

[21:52] <@teamcoltra> mildbeard that's what I was saying

[21:52] <+mildbeard> and I agree.

[21:53] <@teamcoltra> I made a mistake in saying the bylaws can't say "the second wednesday" or something

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[21:53] <Sacha> Yeah, that is okay though. I am just relieved it can be that.

[21:53] <@teamcoltra> So anyway, Sacha / Zacqary please include something in the bylaws

[21:53] <+mildbeard> kusanagi has us surrounded :)

[21:53] <Sacha> I put it on the agenda so we're good and made a note in my to-do list ^_^

[21:53] <+Zacqary> Will do.

[21:53] <Sacha> So to wrap up the by laws committee

[21:54] <Sacha> We're going to switch to this google doc

[21:54] <Sacha> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k6HyleGs_5009RlEgxW-wXmh4zSZeCJo1zBJkzTRoW8/edit?pli=1#heading=h.5u1huqm6xjta

[21:54] <Sacha> that is the only official place for editing that will be accepted

[21:54] <@kusanagi> mildbeard: sorry, working on fixing something and IRC keeps disconnecting

[21:54] <+Bosun> example from US code : The electors of President and Vice President shall be appointed, in each State, on the
Tuesday next after the first Monday in November, in every fourth year succeeding every election of a President and Vice President.

[21:54] <Sacha> Please comment, ask questions etc. and then we can vote next week. Sound good?

[21:54] <@kusanagi> I really am not comfortable with using a google doc

[21:54] <+mildbeard> np kusanagi just smiling along with you

[21:54] <Sacha> Kusanagi why not

[21:55] <@kusanagi> We should e using piratepad, I think.

[21:55] <@kusanagi> And to restrict us to a Google doc is well, kind of ludicrous.

[21:55] <+Rush> Guys, I need to head out.

[21:55] <+mildbeard> a wiki page would be a good alternative because it tracks history.

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[21:56] <@kusanagi> Oooh, I like that one too, mildbeard

[21:56] <@teamcoltra> piratepad tracks history too

[21:56] <@kusanagi> It should be something we "own"

[21:56] <@kusanagi> A google doc lacks that feeling.

[21:57] <+Zacqary> Google Docs is easier for me, personally, but I can transfer my work to whichever system we need.

[21:57] <+mildbeard> A google doc might have a privacy concern if it wasn't part of our open government transparency.

[21:57] <@teamcoltra> lol you mean like the German pirate pad where your connection is intercpeted by a government line? It's honestly up to Zacqary

[21:57] <@teamcoltra> It's his committee

[21:57] <+Bosun> For continuity can we agree on piratepad?

[21:57] <passstab> kusanagi, is right we should be willing to sacrifice small functionality to use something that is FOSS and respectful of privacy

[21:58] <@teamcoltra> I am going to move on, because it's not a PNC matter - it's a committee issue. Join the committee and decide as a team if you have a preference

[21:58] <+mildbeard> hear, hear.

[21:58] <@teamcoltra> Agenda Items

[21:59] <@teamcoltra> Who was the one who proposed: ad hoc Convention Committee

[21:59] <+Bosun> Twas I

[21:59] <@teamcoltra> Bosun go ahead

[22:00] <+Bosun> I propose the formation of an ad hoc convention committe.

[22:00] <@teamcoltra> With the purpose of?

[22:01] <@teamcoltra> (I am not disagreeing, I am asking for clarity)

[22:01] == itspara [~AndChat64@69.255.xyx.lw] has joined #pnc

[22:01] <+Bosun> Of organizing our convention.

[22:01] <+mildbeard> Are you referring to the same convention that the bylaws committee has to set the date for?

[22:02] <+Bosun> Yes. …. organizing and publicity.

[22:02] <@teamcoltra> Would they manage voting and such?

[22:03] <+Bosun> We should inform the world that we are having a convention, even if small and even if virtual.

[22:04] <@kusanagi> I don't think a offline convention could be attended by many right now, but yes.

[22:05] <+Bosun> We would need to hatch a plan. It would be unwise to have delegates or candidates count votes. We need to be more
above board than anyone else.

[22:05] <@kusanagi> We should tell everyone, especially in light of the Adbusters thing.

[22:05] <+mildbeard> sure why not.

[22:05] <+Bosun> We need to show that we walk the walk on transparency and democracy.

[22:06] <+Bosun> Even if it is laptops in a hotel room.

[22:06] <@teamcoltra> ;) just keep your webcam off

[22:06] <@teamcoltra> But seriously I agree

[22:06] <@kusanagi> teamcoltra: lol

[22:07] <+jake> ok I vote yes

[22:07] <+jake> lets make a committee

[22:07] <+mildbeard> who would be the committee chair?

[22:07] <@teamcoltra> Okay well can someone make a voteable motion

[22:07] <@teamcoltra> which is very specific

[22:07] <@teamcoltra> if you want the committee to handle voting -- it needs to say that

[22:08] <+mildbeard> I move that the PNC create a convention committee to be responsible for organizing the convention on the date
to be specified in the bylaws, including voting, and to handle any associated publicity and promotions.

[22:09] <+jake> second

[22:09] <@teamcoltra> Do we want further discussion on it?

[22:09] <@teamcoltra> anyone disagree wit that?

[22:09] <@teamcoltra> with*

[22:09] <+Bosun> Yea that works … cuz I am a slow typist

[22:10] <+jake> lets proceed to vote

[22:10] <@teamcoltra> Okay all in favour of the motion the PNC create a convention committee to be responsible for organizing the
convention on the date to be specified in the bylaws, including voting, and to handle any associated publicity and promotions.

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[22:10] == kusi has changed nick to kusanagi

[22:10] <@teamcoltra> Please say aye, all against nay

[22:10] <+jake> aye

[22:10] <+Bosun> aye

[22:10] <+mildbeard> aye

[22:11] <passstab> aye

[22:11] <+Zacqary> Aye

[22:11] <jarod> Aye

[22:11] <@teamcoltra> Okay vote called

[22:12] <@teamcoltra> Sacha can you give the official total

[22:12] <Sacha> 5.5 for I believe

[22:12] <Sacha> my first count so check out my math :I

[22:12] == mode/#pnc [+v jarod] by teamcoltra

[22:12] <@teamcoltra> yes

[22:12] <@teamcoltra> thats righ

[22:13] <@teamcoltra> Okay does anyone want to volunteer to head the committee?

[22:13] <@kusanagi> Honestly, Bosun seems like he understands this well

[22:13] <@kusanagi> maybe?

[22:13] <+Bosun> Yeah … since I proposed it. BTW how do we setup an IRC channel?

[22:14] <+jake> I second Bosun

[22:14] <@kusanagi> Bosun, I can help with that

[22:14] <@teamcoltra> Bosun just join the channel

[22:14] <+Bosun> I would like volunteers.

[22:14] <+mildbeard> Type /join name-of-channel

[22:15] <+Bosun> ahh … ok

[22:15] <@teamcoltra> like if you want to create #boson just /join boson

[22:15] <+Bosun> gotcha

[22:15] <+Bosun> I need to RTFM.

[22:15] <@kusanagi> Bosun, lol

[22:15] <@kusanagi> it happens

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[22:16] <@teamcoltra> Okay so Bosun will head the committee

[22:17] <@teamcoltra> I think we can move on to 5.2

[22:17] <@teamcoltra> jake California's concerns about the Constitution

[22:17] <@teamcoltra> go ahead

[22:18] <+jake> ok

[22:18] <+jake> so there are a variety of suggestions, most of which I would characterise as linguistic

[22:18] <+jake> I could go through them all right now, but I think it would be better to submit a word doc

[22:19] <+jake> there's really two main issues, that make it so at this time we have to say no to ratification

[22:19] <+mildbeard> are there any major issues that would impact ratification?

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[22:19] <+jake> #1

[22:19] <+jake> Article 1 Section 3 "Values"

[22:19] <+jake> Value 6, currently worded as 6. Current Wording: "We are a post-ideological meritocracy. Policy and decision-making
must be based on evidence and scientific reasoning. The approach that works best, or the person who does the best job, must be chosen over the alternatives. Where possible, we avoid making decisions or selecting leaders based on tradition, popularity, authority or ideology"

[22:20] <+jake> we don't like it and would call for its removal altogether

[22:20] <+jake> There are enough elements of this that I find problematic that I would prefer it was done away with entirely. For
one thing, meritocracy is an ideology, and though it claims to be neutral to a bunch of social issues like race, class, gender, etc., it can be convincingly argued that this neutrality supports status quo power structures. As a practical example of this, wouldn't the current wording prevent a pirate from endorsing affirmative ac

[22:20] <+mildbeard> what's the problem with it?

[22:20] <+jake> heehe

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[22:21] <@teamcoltra> jake you got cut off

[22:21] <+jake> doh

[22:21] <+jake> how far

[22:21] <+jake> did it go?

[22:21] <@teamcoltra> California's concerns about the Constitution

[22:21] <@teamcoltra> err

[22:21] <@teamcoltra> t wording prevent a pirate from endorsing affirmative ac

[22:21] <+jake> prevent a pirate from endorsing affirmativeaction? What this plank implies to me is a sort of technocracy, where policymakers seethemselves as carrying out an essentially scientific mission in social and political space. Thisis just not how I view my relationship with politics. My belief in equality, for instance, is notgrounded in pragmatism - it is profoundly ideological.

[22:21] <+jake> If studies were to find that "theapproach that works best" did so in a non-equal manner (say, racial profiling at
airports), Iwould remain opposed to such a thing on principle. If all policy must be based on scientificreasoning, am I disallowed from voting based on principle?

[22:21] <+jake> These questions become evenmore problematic when applied to the last line. Any approach that selects leaders based noton authority or popularity or tradition (or any combination thereof), but rather throughsupposed merit, seems destined to be anti-democratic. These are just a few of the CPP's concerns.

[22:22] <+Bosun> Can you suggest an alternative wording?

[22:22] <+Zacqary> Erik Zoltan wrote that passage, so I wish he were here to comment.

[22:23] <@teamcoltra> If studies that were peer reviewed proved 100% conclusively that some approach works best... than yes... I
would believe we should follow it

[22:23] <+mildbeard> I'm Erik...

[22:23] <+Zacqary> OH

[22:23] <+Zacqary> DERP

[22:23] <+mildbeard> lol

[22:23] <@kusanagi> lol

[22:23] <@kusanagi> a wild zoltan has appeared

[22:23] <+jake> I don't think its modifiable in a way we would agree with.. at least not without such severe modifications that it might as well be done away with entirely, and a new form proposed

[22:24] <+Zacqary> The way I interpret values 6 and 7 are the Hacker Ethic, basically.

[22:24] <+Zacqary> So that's what I suggest we base any rewording on.

[22:24] <+mildbeard> I understand the objections jake has raised. They are serious issues and deserve to be dealt with.

[22:24] <+Zacqary> I do too.

[22:25] <+mildbeard> That said, I'm completely opposed to simply removing this value and leaving nothing in its place.

[22:25] <+Zacqary> As am I.

[22:25] <@teamcoltra> I don't think the Pirate Party should be in the business of making people "feel better", if the science
supports conclusively a platform point... then we need to embrace it

[22:25] <+jake> I would be open to hearing alternate wordings brought forward at a later time - or would happily take back alternate wordings to my people and see what they think.

[22:25] <+mildbeard> We have major parties that actually don't believe in anything, and that have contradictory positions based on nothing more than rhetoric. The point of that value is that we need something more than that.

[22:27] <+mildbeard> On the other hand, it would be possible to take the words in the "values" section (not just this value) and
twist them into something pretty horrible if we had cynical people who didn't know the difference between right and wrong.

[22:27] <@teamcoltra> Btw, California voted in favour of this concept when it was proposed before the constitution was passed.

[22:27] <+Zacqary> People can change their minds after thinking about things.

[22:27] <BradyMobile> Falkvinge's pirate wheel suggests that which is ' necessary, effective, proportionate, and evidence-based'.

[22:27] <+Bosun> Is this the point where we discuss post-modernism?

[22:27] <@teamcoltra> BradyMobile identify please?

[22:28] <+jake> Bosun, I hope not, unless we want our meeting to run on into infintiy

[22:28] <BradyMobile> Brady Dibble, Washington

[22:28] == mode/#pnc [+v BradyMobile] by teamcoltra

[22:28] <+Zacqary> I always thought we were a rather metamodernist party.

[22:28] <+Zacqary> Actually, never mind, let's not get into this.

[22:28] <+Zacqary> Shit shit shit abort.

[22:29] <Deamon> I'm postmetaultrasupermodernist

[22:29] <+mildbeard> So wait, that was only #1 of California's major issues right?

[22:29] <@teamcoltra> I'm a Pirate

[22:29] <+jake> Can we rephrase Value 6 as expressing an openness to dialog and debate about ideas; a willingness to give all people a chance both to be heard and to lead

[22:29] <@teamcoltra> jake you have the option to make a motion on #1

[22:29] <+Zacqary> That's Value 7.

[22:30] <@teamcoltra> though it doesn't seem popular... you can propose an amendment to the constituion

[22:30] <+jake> I dont have wording

[22:30] <@teamcoltra> kk

[22:30] <+Bosun> put the word 'democracy' in it

[22:30] <+jake> here's what I'm saying to mildbeard mostly

[22:30] <@teamcoltra> just wanted you to know that no one can prevent you from making a motion

[22:30] <+jake> If you could take out some of the stronger language in value 6 and roll some language into value 7, I believe you could maintain much of what you're trying to say without making the party seem obsessed with scientific rationality

[22:31] <+Zacqary> Bosun, I think democracy ought to be the logical conclusion of our values, not our values itself. It's a method. If a better system than democracy somehow comes along we should remain open to it.

[22:31] <+jake> that sort of amendment, if proposed and accepted, would allow california to ratify

[22:31] <+jake> I don't have wording for it right now; it should probably be thought about for at least a week

[22:31] <@teamcoltra> jake - It's my belief the party /should/ be obsessed with scientific rationality

[22:32] <+mildbeard> I think we can come up with a wording that would address the concern.

[22:32] <@teamcoltra> maybe not "obsessed" but highly dedicated

[22:32] <@kusanagi> obsessed is a very strong word.

[22:32] <+mildbeard> However I also feel that the concerns really wouldn't be a problem in view of the other core values in the document.

[22:32] <+Bosun> It is a constitution, not stone tablets from god.

[22:32] <+BradyMobile> Belief is a dangerous word.

[22:32] <+Zacqary> I think the problem with scientific rationality is that you have people like the hilariously-named Reason
magazine claiming that as their ideology, and ruining it for all the other actually rational people in the world.

[22:32] <+jake> just to give a counbterpoint to that Travis, here in California we're working with a lot of artists and musicians
who are very excited to be part of the party. that's not a fitting description of them. So I think it might be best for the party to leave room for individual discretiuon, on what we choose to be obsessed with

[22:33] <+jake> at least to a state level

[22:34] <+jake> so we had 1 more concern

[22:34] <+Bosun> Empirical evidence ..

[22:34] <+mildbeard> so there's a specific objection to science and meritocracy in value 6.

[22:34] <+mildbeard> actually post-ideological too.

[22:34] <+jake> this time it's an addition. we feel that the values as written do not expresses the progressive social agenda of
the Pirate Party. If we are going to be the party of the Internet, we need to champion things like access to the Internet, which can be couched in the greater framework of progressivism and social welfare. The CPP has always felt this is at the core of being a pirate.

[22:35] <+jake> so we'd propose the additional value:We believe in a progressive government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of democracy, including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet

[22:35] <+BradyMobile> Scientific reasoning is a neutral tool.

[22:35] <@teamcoltra> jake - to me it seems that California is taking a very "american" view of the word "science".

[22:35] <+BradyMobile> The method can be applied to humanitarian purposes.

[22:35] <+Zacqary> Well, actually, if you look at the numbers, a progressive government IS the approach that works best.

[22:36] <+Zacqary> So..that's value 6 right there.

[22:36] <+Bosun> Do you object to the word scientific or empirical reasoning as a philisophical point?

[22:36] <@teamcoltra> Zacqary exactly

[22:36] <+jake> theres no particular word we object to...

[22:36] <+Zacqary> Jake, I think what you're afraid of is bullshitters cherry-picking statistics and distorting facts rather than
actual hard evidence. Because actual hard evidence supports exactly what you're asking for.

[22:36] <+mildbeard> Well, there's a specific reason why the progressive social issues other than equality weren't proposed for
inclusion in the Constitution, so it makes sense to state what that is.

[22:37] <+jake> what I'm afraid of is not the bullshitters per se; it's the belief in infallible categories of truth like science that permit bullshitters such authority to peddle their bullshit

[22:37] <@teamcoltra> Zacqary lol your on a roll - I will just stay out of your way you are answering everything how I would ;)

[22:37] <+Bosun> Wiki the Wisconsin Idea.

[22:38] <@teamcoltra> True science cannot be bullshitted.

[22:38] <+jake> hard evidence is not a thing when applied to social science

[22:38] <@teamcoltra> It can be backed up

[22:38] <+jake> politics is not geology

[22:38] <@kusanagi> jake is right.

[22:38] <+mildbeard> The Pirate Party is a coalition of at least two very distinct ideologies - one is progressive and the other is
libertarian. There are a lot of libertarians out there who wouldn't be comfortable with a progressive social agenda. I don't know if this is really a problem, but that's why I never proposed to put any social progressive language into the core values.

[22:38] <+jake> I think its hugely irresponsible to be a party based in and around participation through the internet that doesn't take a progressive stance on things like access to the internet

[22:39] <+jake> the libertarian "let people figure out connections for themselves" is simply not appropriate

[22:39] <+mildbeard> Access to the internet is definitely a core value and it's in the pirate wheel. If it's not covered in the core values then we should add it.

[22:39] <+Zacqary> It's one of the conclusions of the Pirate Wheel.

[22:39] <+Zacqary> So it can be in our platform.

[22:39] <@teamcoltra> jake I agree 100% with that... and every paper I have read on Internet access has shown children who have access to internet connections perform better in school

[22:40] <+mildbeard> The Massachusetts Pirate Party is very socially progressive, and we would vote in favor of social progressive policies.

[22:40] <@teamcoltra> Science is a way to combat some of the libertarian social things that are just not founded in truth.

[22:40] <+mildbeard> Hold on, are we talking about item #1 (value 6) or item #2 (add progressive value)?

[22:41] <+BradyMobile> Science can go either way depending on your interpretation of the results.

[22:41] <+jake> neither is being voted on at this time, it's a general discussion of CPP's concerns

[22:41] <+mildbeard> OK but I'm getting confused so I'd like to discuss them separately.

[22:41] <+jake> that makes sense

[22:41] <+jake> lets start with the former

[22:42] <+Bosun> Science is a method not a result.

[22:42] <+jake> Can the language just get toned down? "Policy and decision-making must be based on evidence and scientific
reasoning." is sooo strong. You honestly believe politicians should never do what feels ethically right?

[22:42] <+mildbeard> On item 1 (value 6) I am still not sure that I understand in sufficient detail what California's objection is, in order to be able to propose alternative wording that would solve the problem and still keep the underlying point.

[22:43] <+jake> "The approach that works best, or the person who does the best job, must be chosen over the alternatives." is also
too strong. It prevents one from being in favor of Affirmative Action, for example

[22:43] <+BradyMobile> Ethics are subjective.

[22:43] <+BradyMobile> e.g. Legitimate Rape

[22:43] <+mildbeard> FIrst of all, it absolutely doesn't prevent one from being in favor of affirmative action!!!

[22:44] <+mildbeard> We have a core value 7 which talks about equality. If affirmative action is a good way to promote equality
then it's just fine.

[22:44] <+BradyMobile> If affirmative action is proven to produce the intended result.

[22:44] <+BradyMobile> Not just because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy

[22:45] <+BradyMobile> Mildbeard, was this your intention?

[22:45] <@teamcoltra> Exactly

[22:45] <@teamcoltra> Our policies shouldn't be based on making people feel better

[22:45] <+jake> then the two values contradict. Because in the interest of value 7, we can take someone who is not scientifically speaking the best for the job (in terms of test scores, experience) in favor of someone who benefits the diversity of the program

[22:45] <@teamcoltra> they should be about achieving positive results

[22:45] <+jake> value 6 says we must choose who is best for the job based on science

[22:46] <+Zacqary> The benefit from diversity outweighs the benefit from choosing the absolute best best best best person.

[22:46] <+mildbeard> Here's what we shouldn't do. We shouldn't adopt a policy because we're all liberal, and it makes us feel less
guilty about some people suffering. We should look at all the alternatives and try them out, and go with something that works. In the current political climate, it's "us against them" and as long as we defeat the opposing party it really doesn't seem to matter very much whether we are screwing up people's lives and making the world a horrible place

[22:46] <+mildbeard> If affirmative action works then we should be in favor of it.

[22:46] <+jake> then the wording needs to express our lack of political cynicism

[22:46] <@teamcoltra> Exactly, and if it doesn't... let's find something that actually HELPS minorities.

[22:46] <+mildbeard> If we go with something else, then it's becaus we have found that it is actually a more effective way of
promoting our core value of equality (value 7).

[22:47] <@teamcoltra> (not saying it doesn't, just saying IF it doesn't)

[22:47] <+Bosun> If it works. In some ways it has, but we still have racialy segregated slums.

[22:48] <+jake> the problem is that the debate will continue to rage about the exact science of 'whether or not it works'. because
sociology is not exact science. This is why the CPP believes it is important for us to be able to make decisions on purely ethical grounds

[22:48] <+jake> which value 6 disallows

[22:49] <+mildbeard> The intent of value 6 is not to disallow ethical grounds.

[22:49] <+mildbeard> So we can change that aspect.

[22:49] <+jake> then perhaps it is worded too strongly

[22:49] <@teamcoltra> I don't want to get into the subject too much -- but income based affirmitive action seems to be much more
promising than race based AA. However, by doing away with race based AA you run into the "emotional" impact of removing something you gave to minorities and redistributing it. This is what I want to avoid.

[22:49] <+Bosun> Can we add ethics into it?

[22:50] <+BradyMobile> Purely ethical grounds scares me.

[22:50] <@teamcoltra> Why are they exclusive of each other?

[22:50] <+jake> if value 6 can be reworded as a commitment to earnest and sincere policymaking based on what we feel is the best
course of action

[22:50] <@teamcoltra> if you are helping people and you can prove it, then you are doing what's most ethical

[22:50] <+jake> haha

[22:50] <+mildbeard> Let me take a long hard look at the wording of value 6, taking this concern into account, and come back with a
proposed rewording.

[22:50] <+jake> then Monsanto is a saint

[22:50] <+jake> :-)

[22:50] <+jake> ccause they own lots of research labs

[22:51] <+jake> that specialize in making proof of thingas

[22:51] <+BradyMobile> In the short run, maybe.

[22:51] <+BradyMobile> But the party is holistic

[22:51] <+jake> I agree with mildbeard

[22:51] <+Zacqary> Monsanto's very good at sounding like they know what the hell they're talking about.

[22:51] <+Zacqary> But not actually.

[22:51] <+jake> we should take up this debate at a later date when we have actual amendment wording

[22:52] <+jake> can we move to the second issue?

[22:52] <@teamcoltra> So we will come back to issue 1

[22:52] <+mildbeard> yes

[22:52] <@teamcoltra> lets move on

[22:52] <+jake> alright, the proposed added value

[22:52] <+jake> We believe in a progressive government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of
democracy, including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet.

[22:53] <+Zacqary> Again, I don't see how that's not a logical conclusion of the values we already have.

[22:53] <+jake> this is definitely part of CPP's core structure. We'd like to see something like it in the national language

[22:53] <+jake> it may be a logical conclusion

[22:53] <+jake> but its not said in any of the other values...

[22:53] <+mildbeard> There shouldn't be any sort of problem with the parts about health care, the Internet, and education.

[22:54] <+Zacqary> The values aren't supposed to dictate platform points.

[22:54] <+mildbeard> except that...

[22:54] <+jake> there is nothing in the values as stated that implies governmental responsibility to the citizens to provide
infrastructure and services

[22:55] <+mildbeard> So is there anyone right now on the PNC who would have a problem with government spending on health care, and
with terms like "social institutions", "progressive government" and so on?

[22:56] <+BradyMobile> I have an issue with the term progressive.

[22:56] <+jake> that can be omitted if the rest stands

[22:56] <+BradyMobile> It can be defined in non-pirate ways.

[22:56] <+mildbeard> BradyMobile, can you explain?

[22:57] <+jake> We believe in a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of democracy,
including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet.

[22:57] <+BradyMobile> I do believe certain republican factions have also stated using the word.

[22:57] <+Bosun> I would prefer 'support' or 'advocate for' rather than 'belive in'

[22:58] <+jake> either is fine

[22:58] <+jake> 'stand for' is the preferred term in constitution as written

[22:58] == QuazarGuy [~QuazarGuy@66.80.tw.hr] has joined #pnc

[22:58] <+mildbeard> OK, but BradyMobile do you have an underlying issue with any of the concepts or is it just the word "progressive"?

[22:58] <+Bosun> OK

[22:58] <+Zacqary> I have a problem with terms in general. The more used a term is, the more I say we should avoid saying it. Because words like "progressive" have a zillion different definitions, some good, some pejorative, none consistent.

[22:58] <+jake> "We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the broader goals of democracy, including but not limited to health care, education, and access to the Internet."

[22:59] <+MrSquared> Aight guys, I have to go

[22:59] == MrSquared [webchat@65.182.wky.sjn] has quit []

[22:59] <+Bosun> universall access ...

[22:59] <+jake> I like that

[23:00] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutionsnecessary for the broader goals of democracy, including
but not limited to health care, education, and universal access to the Internet.

[23:00] <+Zacqary> I agree with that entirely, Jake, but that's too specific for a value.

[23:00] <+mildbeard> I am worried that health care, education and internet access are not values but specific policies. I think we
need a core value that expresses the underlying idea (which is very important) but just naming the policies may not quite capture
the essential point.

[23:01] <+BradyMobile> I agree with mildbeard on this.

[23:01] <+Zacqary> Something about empowerment, maybe?

[23:01] <+jake> thats fine. Then I propose we keep the first sentence and expand from there

[23:01] <+BradyMobile> What about 'humanism'?

[23:01] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutionsnecessary forthe broader goals of democracy

[23:01] <+mildbeard> When we talk about health care, education and Internet access we are really saying that everyone is equally important and it's not acceptable that the few should be lying on golden beds while too many are starving.

[23:01] <+Zacqary> Even democracy I'd say is too specific, because that implies a specific system of government.

[23:02] <+jake> oh come on :P

[23:02] <+jake> thats too far

[23:02] <+mildbeard> I agree with Zacqary on that,

[23:02] <+Zacqary> Well, Falkvinge's with me on that one.

[23:02] <+jake> our party seems tied to the idea of democracy

[23:02] <+jake> how can we not be?

[23:02] <+Zacqary> http://falkvinge.net/pirate-wheel Democracy's in like Tier 3

[23:02] <+Zacqary> Because democracy just happens to be the best tool for the job we can think of right now.

[23:03] <+Zacqary> Operative word being tool.

[23:03] <+Zacqary> We choose the best tools to achieve our goals. We don't make tools goals in and of themselves.

[23:03] <+mildbeard> The "health care issue" is not so much about medicine as about equality. In some ways we have a great health
care system but too many people don't have access to it. We don't need to improve health care as such, just to make it universally accessible. It is an equality issue.

[23:04] <QuazarGuy> at the core, the Pirate Party is a civil right movement

[23:04] <+Zacqary> It's also a resilience issue. Society falls apart unless everyone's healthy. Come to think of it, I don't think
we fully cover resilience in the values.

[23:04] <+Zacqary> Or maybe we do because of value 6.

[23:04] <+Zacqary> What works best.

[23:04] <+jake> I thought so too QuazarGuy

[23:05] <+Zacqary> So let's say "civil rights" instead of "democracy"?

[23:06] <+jake> but that's not what we mean

[23:06] <+Zacqary> Citizen empowerment?

[23:06] <QuazarGuy> they aren't really interchangable

[23:06] <+Zacqary> How's that?

[23:06] <+jake> I suppose we could say citizen empowerment...but id really rather just say democracy

[23:06] <+mildbeard> I think we need to have a strong underlying core value about equality that says everyone is equally important
and we need a government that values the basic welfare of every citizen equally. And then we can adopt specific policies for things like health care, education, Internet and many other things that would support that value. Even affirmative action.

[23:06] <QuazarGuy> civil rights are freedom, democracy is a method of control

[23:06] <+Zacqary> We have equality in there.

[23:07] <+mildbeard> Zacqary yes we do, but it's not enough as it stands.

[23:07] <+jake> we have equality expressed in terms of NEGATIVE rights. The government will treat all people the same. the
government won't allow discrimination. What we need is an affirmation of POSITIVE rights. the gov will act to level the playing field.

[23:07] <+mildbeard> it does say a level playing field.

[23:07] <+jake> the gov will provide health care to the poor; will get internet to places that dont have it

[23:07] <+Zacqary> "We believe in equality and a level playing field."

[23:08] <+Bosun> We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment of the people, a society
were the humblest and weakest person

[23:08] <+Bosun> can enjoy the highest civil, economic, and social rights that the

[23:08] <+Bosun> biggest and most powerful possess.

[23:08] <+Zacqary> LOVE IT.

[23:08] <@kusanagi> yes!

[23:08] <+mildbeard> I think that's much closer to the mark.

[23:08] <+Bosun> Its a hashed A. Philip Randolph quote

[23:09] <+Zacqary> Honestly, what we have there is enough for me, but I'd be willing to add that ninth value just to make it more
rock-solid and leave less to interpretation.

[23:09] <+Zacqary> Do you like Bosun's wording, jake?

[23:09] <QuazarGuy> add political to it

[23:10] <+jake> I like the first part

[23:10] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary forthe empowerment of the people"

[23:10] <+Zacqary> So just that?

[23:11] <QuazarGuy> for the equal empowerment?

[23:11] <+jake> the second part doesn't fully make sense to me. cause we're not saying everyone is entitled to the best health
care, or the best internet, that all people should have the same economic privileges

[23:11] <+jake> we're not anti-capitalists

[23:12] <+mildbeard> That's a good point.

[23:12] <+jake> but the state should provide a minimum for its people...the idea of programs like medicaid and education grants is not to make society wholly level, but to provide safety nets

[23:12] <QuazarGuy> there should just be a floor that no one can fall below

[23:12] == teamcoltra [~travis_mc@168.sub-27-541-586.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]

[23:12] <+Bosun> rights do not equal economic equity

[23:12] == passstab [~emily@xx.pirate] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

[23:13] <+mildbeard> The enumeration of specific policies is generally out of scope for the Constitution. For example we are all
about Copyright, but we don't mention it in the Constitution. We say "open culture". That's why I'm uncomfortable with words like "health care" and "education".

[23:13] <+Zacqary> Can we please ban the word "capitalism"? Also "socialism". They've lost all meaning.

[23:14] <@kusanagi> i don't think we can bar words from being used.

[23:14] <+Bosun> How about: We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment of all the people

[23:14] <+Zacqary> It's a figure of speech.

[23:15] <+jake> We stand for a government that promotes social institutions necessary for the empowerment of all people" is fine with me

[23:15] <@kusanagi> I like that as well.

[23:15] <+jake> can we say empowerment, health, and well-being of all people?

[23:16] <@kusanagi> we can say whatever you will agree on.

[23:16] <+jake> well thats what I would like :-)

[23:16] <@kusanagi> also, as travis pinged out, i'm stepping up as chair

[23:16] <+mildbeard> cool

[23:16] <+jake> anyway those are the CPPs two concerns

[23:16] <+jake> we dont have to vote about either now

[23:17] <+jake> there are also minor linguistic issues which we could ratify in spite of and address at a later date

[23:17] <+Zacqary> How many ratifying members are here right now?

[23:17] <@kusanagi> Ok.

[23:17] == teamcoltra [~travis_mc@168.sub-27-541-586.myvzw.com] has joined #pnc

[23:17] == mode/#pnc [+o teamcoltra] by ChanServ

[23:17] <QuazarGuy> the states will members will need more time to make sure their states agree

[23:17] <@kusanagi> Ok, he's back

[23:17] <+Zacqary> Oh right that

[23:18] <QuazarGuy> the members*

[23:18] <+Zacqary> Okay, let's not vote right now.

[23:18] <Sacha> All full members can vote until the six months is up, a reminder from what we found in the logs earlier

[23:18] <Sacha> Full member =/= ratifying yet

[23:19] <+Zacqary> So the wording we need to take back to our states is: "We stand for a government that promotes social
institutions necessary for the empowerment, health, and well-being of all people." Correct?

[23:19] <+jake> yup

[23:19] <+Bosun> Seems like it ...

[23:19] <+jake> and we also want to come up with some kind of revised text for 6

[23:20] <+Zacqary> I'd be willing to strike the "scientific reasoning" portion of that but keep "evidence". I mean, evidence isn't
a bad thing, right?

[23:20] <+Zacqary> Also maybe strike "the person who does the best job" just to avoid confusion re: affirmative action.

[23:21] <+jake> there's enough of it that warrants change that I dont think we're gonna come up with an agreed wording on this one
just now

[23:21] <+jake> lets just try to come up with some kind of proposal for next week

[23:21] <+Zacqary> Okay.

[23:22] <+Zacqary> Anything else?

[23:23] <+jake> thats all from me

[23:24] <+Zacqary> So is it AOB time, Cap'n?

[23:25] <@teamcoltra> yes

[23:25] <+Bosun> #usahcc is the US ad hoc Convention Committee

[23:27] == jarod2 [~yaaic@70.147.pzk.nn] has quit [Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org]

[23:27] <@teamcoltra> Anything else that needs to be discussed?

[23:28] <@teamcoltra> or anyone want to motion to adjourn?

[23:29] <+Zacqary> Motion to adjourn.

[23:29] <+mildbeard> second

[23:29] <@teamcoltra> in favour?

[23:29] <+Zacqary> Aye

[23:29] <Deamon> aye

[23:29] <+Bosun> aye

[23:30] <+mildbeard> aye

[23:30] <@teamcoltra> Well we failed quorum

[23:30] <@teamcoltra> but it's alright

[23:31] <@teamcoltra> meeting adjourned

USPP Home/Party Updates

2012-08-18T00:59:03Z

Kusanagi:

<noinclude>
{{USPP NAV}}
</noinclude>

[{{fullurl:USPP_Home/Party Updates|action=edit}} Edit] this section
''August 22nd''
*[[PNC 8/22/12|PNC Meeting]]
''August 15th''
*[[PNC 8/15/12|PNC Meeting]]
''August 8st''
*[[PNC 8/8/12|PNC Meeting]]
''August 1st''
*[[PNC 8/1/12|PNC Meeting]]
''July 25th''
*[[PNC 7/25/12|PNC Meeting]]
**''PNC [[Pirate_National_Committee_(PNC)/Constitution|Constitution]] was adopted''
''July 18th''
*[[PNC 7/18/12|PNC Meeting]]
''July 11th''
*[[PNC 7/11/12|PNC Meeting]]
''June 28th 2012''
*PNC Constitution Due - Help out [[Policy|here]].
**Due date extended to July 26th
''June 27th''
*[[PNC 6/27/12|PNC Meeting]]
''June 20th''
*[[PNC 6/20/12|PNC Meeting]]
''June 13th''
*[[PNC 6/13/12|PNC Meeting]]
''June 6th''
*[[PNC 6/6/12|PNC Meeting]]
''May 23rd''
*[[PNC 5/23/12|PNC Meeting]]
''May 16th''
*[[PNC 5/16/12|PNC Meeting]]
''May 9th''
*[[PNC 5/9/12|PNC Meeting]]
''May 2st''
*[[PNC 5/2/12|PNC Meeting]]
''May 1st''
*[[USPP 5/1/12|IRC Meeting]]
''April 25th''
*[[PNC 4/25/12|PNC meeting]]
 
'''''Minutes before this point were lost during a move to a new host. Sorry for the inconvenience.'''''
 
''January 22nd''
*[[No Safe Harbor: Essays about Pirate Politics|USPP Book]] will be released to the public
''January 17th''
*[[USPP 1/17/12|IRC Meeting]]
''January 1st''
*[[No Safe Harbor: Essays about Pirate Politics|USPP Book]] will be finalized and published
''December 20th''
*[[USPP 12/20/11|IRC Meeting]]
''December 13th''
*[[USPP 12/13/11|IRC Meeting]]
''December 6th''
*[[USPP 12/6/11|IRC Meeting]]
''December 1st''
*[[USPP Unnamed book foreword|Foreword]] edits for the USPP book due
''November 29th''
*[[USPP 11/29/11|IRC Meeting]]
''November 22nd''
*[[USPP 11/22/11|IRC Meeting]]
''November 15th''
*[[USPP 11/15/11|IRC Meeting]]
''November 8th''
*[[USPP 11/8/11|IRC Meeting]]
''November 5th''
*All essay entries due for the [[USPP Unnamed Book|Pirate Party Book]]

<noinclude>
[[Category:USPP Templates]]
</noinclude>

PNC 8/22/12

2012-08-18T00:58:14Z

Kusanagi: /* 2 - PROCEEDINGS */

:''Agenda PNC MEETING'''
::'''--- 08/22/2012 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/22/12

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====

*excused

*unexcused

*probation

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting opened at: 09:--pm EDT by
*Meeting closed at: --:--pm EDT by
*Meeting chaired by
*Secretary for this meeting is
*Quorum is established: Members X out of 8 present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===

=== 4 - REPORTS ===
====4.1 - Short report of the board members ====
=====Massachusetts=====

=====Washington=====

=====Oregon=====

=====Georgia====

=====Florida=====

=====New York=====

=====California=====

=====Wisconsin=====

==== 4.2 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====

=====Bylaws Committee=====

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===
*ad hoc Convention Committee

=== - AOB - ===

*Next meeting: TBA at 9PM EDT
*Meeting closed: --:--pm

Log:

PNC 8/22/12

2012-08-18T00:57:22Z

Kusanagi: original edit

:''Agenda PNC MEETING'''
::'''--- 08/22/2012 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/22/12

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====

*excused

*unexcused

*probation

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting opened at: 09:--pm EDT by
*Meeting closed at: 11:--pm EDT by
*Meeting chaired by
*Secretary for this meeting is
*Quorum is established: Members X out of 8 present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===

=== 4 - REPORTS ===
====4.1 - Short report of the board members ====
=====Massachusetts=====

=====Washington=====

=====Oregon=====

=====Georgia====

=====Florida=====

=====New York=====

=====California=====

=====Wisconsin=====

==== 4.2 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====

=====Bylaws Committee=====

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===
*ad hoc Convention Committee

=== - AOB - ===

*Next meeting: TBA at 9PM EDT
*Meeting closed: --:--pm

Log:

PNC 8/15/12

2012-08-18T00:45:04Z

Kusanagi: /* - AOB - */

{{PNC MINUTES NAV}}
:''Agenda PNC MEETING'''
::'''--- 08/15/2012 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: [http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12 http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12]

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*participating:
**Orion Steele /Jake Ziering, CA
**Joseph T. Klein/Megan Cochran, WI
**Bradley Hall, FL
**Lindsay-Anne Brunner/Zacqary Green, NY
**Brady O'bannon Dibble, WA

*excused
**Oregon
**Massachutsetts
**Washington

*unexcused
**Georgia

*probation
**Oklahoma, 5th meeting missed

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====
*Paul Meserve, NC
*James Eastman, Jr./Amanda Johnson, MI
*Cullen Matthews, IL
*Caleb Langslag, MI

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting opened at: 09:11pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting closed at: 11:28pm EDT by Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Meeting chaired by Travis McCrea and Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Secretary for this meeting is Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Quorum is established: Members 5 out of 8 present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/8/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===
====4.1 - Short report of the board members ====
=====Massachusetts=====
**excused

=====Washington=====
*Washington has had some problems with the party stagnating and will be stepping back to help boost their ranks.

=====Oregon=====
**excused

=====Georgia====
**Absent

=====Florida=====
*A few new members have contracted them about joining and working with them. Brad is beginning work on No Safe Harbor 2.

=====New York=====
*NYPP approved the PNC constitution last week, and starting work on asynchronymous meetings and liquid feedback. Pirate Choir video still in progress

=====California=====
*Calling vote on ratifying the PNC constitution, and an answer is expected in a few days, with ratification the likely result.
*Major work has begun on the Pirate Rado project: and internet radio station broadcasting music that is collected from artists who contribute along with Pirate information, speeches, podcasts and more. in the process of compiling a list of those interested, please email calpirateparty@gmail. There will be another episode of the Pirate Hour tomorrow night, featuring Travis McCrea. Please email calpirateparty@gmail if you are interested in participating.
*Finally, finalizing the internship proposals we plan to send to schools in California. We have proposals for a bunch of different fields, from radio and media to comm, political science, etc. Those are going to be up on the website at calpirateparty.org within the week

=====Wisconsin=====
*Nine people have signed up on their site, including a university professor and a well-known blogger. Treasurer is moving to Madison for university, and will try to set up a student organization

==== 4.2 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====
*If anything needs to be updated, please contact Caleb from MN

*Wiki has been updated, Spambots and restrictions removed, antispam inplememented, so all can contribute to the wiki. Hopefully this will begin the crowdsourcing of resources on the wiki. It is being backed up regularly, and Caleb is person-responsible for IT.

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===
*Elections
**Proposed amendment in the works to establish a date for a national convention
***Vote held to approve the wording of the amendment
****4 for, at-large for
***Vote held to amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly convention shall be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws
****4 for, at-large for.
****Amendment passes and goes into immediate effect.

*Washington motion that an ad hoc Convention Committee shall be discussed at the next meeting.
**No vote held, added to next meeting's agenda.

=== - AOB - ===
*would a roberts rules bot make meeting go more smoothly? - passstab, PA (skipped due to absence)
*Florida nominates Lindsay-Anne Brunner as Captain, leader of the PNC (skipped due to Brad Hall's absence during AOB)
*Pirate Introduction video - Cullen, IL

*Next meeting: Wednesday, August 22nd at 9PM EDT
*Meeting closed: 11:28pm

==Logs==
[9:12pm] teamcoltra: I will chair this meeting, and kusanagi will be secretary.

[9:12pm] teamcoltra: Let's do roll call

[9:13pm] OrionSteele: Orion Steele / Jake Ziering - California

[9:13pm] Bosun: Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin

[9:13pm] Rush: Bradley Hall, Florida

[9:13pm] CalebLangeslag: Caleb Langeslag, Minnesota

[9:13pm] kusanagi: Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY

[9:13pm] themgt: Paul Meserve, North Carolina

[9:13pm] sadyya: Megan Cochran Wisconsin

[9:13pm] Deamon: James Eastman Jr., Michigan

[9:13pm] CullenMatthews: Cullen Matthews, Illinois

[9:13pm] ana left the chat room. (Quit: Web client closed)

[9:14pm] ana joined the chat room.

[9:14pm] teamcoltra: Everyone please review last weeks meeting minutes http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/8/12

[9:15pm] sadyya left the chat room. (Quit: sadyya)

[9:15pm] jarod_ joined the chat room.

[9:15pm] teamcoltra: I will give us about 3 minutes... if anyone needs more time feel free to ask

[9:15pm] Sacha joined the chat room.

[9:17pm] kusanagi: Brady, you're not the WA rep?

[9:17pm] Brady: I was not intending to be.

[9:18pm] kusanagi: there isn't a rep, can you fill in:?

[9:18pm] Brady: Not many other options, as we aren't officially excused.

[9:19pm] Brady: I will fill in to the best of my ability for my state, though I will step down if and when our official rep arrives.

[9:19pm] teamcoltra: Brady - Jeffery was under the interpretation he was the only Washington member left

[9:19pm] kusanagi: jeff did say he couldn't make it

[9:19pm] teamcoltra: He stated to me that he was taking a leave of absence from the PNC entirely until the WAPP was more than just him

[9:19pm] Brady: Pretty much everyone is under a huge workload, has health issues, or both.

[9:20pm] teamcoltra: Okay everyone should have now read last weeks minutes

[9:20pm] teamcoltra: let's do updates from states

[9:21pm] teamcoltra: We will start tonight with Washington, but don't feel obligated to present much Brady

[9:21pm] teamcoltra: I know your on the spot now

[9:21pm] Brady: Washington does have issues.

[9:21pm] Brady: Which should be quite obvious.

[9:21pm] Brady: The party was started by 5 core members, who all already had full lives.

[9:22pm] Brady: However, we focused too much on the structure and not enough on recruitment.

[9:22pm] kusi left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)

[9:22pm] Brady: I almost hate to say it, but K`Tetch was fairly on the mark for what WA should have done.

[9:22pm] Brady: We failed to recruit and inject new blood into the group.

[9:22pm] Brady: As a result, we have stagnated.

[9:23pm] Brady: So for the time being, we will be working on rebuilding our foundation and expanding our active member count.

[9:24pm] Brady: We have attempted to connect with the Cascadia movement, but they are not interested.

[9:24pm] Brady: And, from what I understand, they are actually somewhat of a separatist movement which does not necessarily jive with Pirate ideals.

[9:24pm] kusanagi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

[9:25pm] Brady: Please excuse our relative lack of input for the next few months.

[9:25pm] Brady: That is all.

[9:25pm] teamcoltra: Thanks for that insightful report Brady! :)

[9:25pm] teamcoltra: Rush / Florida?

[9:25pm] kusanagi (~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) has joined #pnc

[9:25pm] Rush: Oh

[9:26pm] kusanagi: sorry about that, plug was pulled

[9:26pm] Rush: We haven't really done much. A few new possible members just contacted us Monday, we're planning on working with them and hopefully
start doing awesome things soon.

[9:27pm] Rush: I will start actually working on NSH2 soon as well. That's gonna rock.

[9:27pm] Rush: Tha'ts all

[9:27pm] teamcoltra: Both very awesome.

[9:28pm] teamcoltra: kusanagi what's going on with NY?

[9:28pm] kusanagi: Well, last week we approved the PNC constitution

[9:28pm] kusanagi: and we're starting work on asynched meetings and liquid feedback.

[9:29pm] kusanagi: that's pretty much all i can think of right now.

[9:30pm] kusanagi: Zacqary: are you here to add more?

[9:30pm] themgt: what's NSH2?

[9:30pm] Rush: No Safe Harbor 2

[9:31pm] Rush: www.nosafeharbor.com

[9:31pm] themgt: gotcha

[9:31pm] teamcolt_ joined the chat room.

[9:31pm] teamcolt_: Sorry my internet disco'd It looks like NY has answered (or are you still going?)

[9:32pm] kusanagi: I did answer, and just finished.

[9:32pm] teamcolt_: Sweet, OrionSteele / California

[9:32pm] teamcoltra left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)

[9:32pm] OrionSteele: are we being called on?

[9:32pm] kusanagi: yes

[9:33pm] kusanagi: state update please

[9:33pm] teamcolt_: Yes, your update

[9:33pm] OrionSteele: ok so there's a fair amount going on over here, I'll try to sum it up\

[9:33pm] OrionSteele: first we're calling votes on PNC ratification within the CPP, so we should have an answer (ratification most likely) within a few days

[9:34pm] OrionSteele: second, we're starting major work on our Pirate Radio project, which is to have an Internet radio station broadcasting music which
we collect from contributing artists along with pirate information, cool speeches, podcasts, etc

[9:35pm] OrionSteele: along those lines we're compiling an email list of interested artists and/or organizers, if you want to take part in that send an email to calpirateparty@gmail

[9:36pm] Brady: Washington knows someone who may be interested. He has the archives of all the old Pirate Radio episodes.

[9:36pm] OrionSteele: ]We're also doing another episode of the Pirate Hour tomorrow, this time with Travis McCrea..it should be a really good opportunity
to broadcast ourselves and get our message out. I understand there is some interest from other state parties in joining the hangout - we do have available space, so I'm sure whoever wants to come we can work out a spot for. The important thing would be sending an email to calpirateparty@gmail between now an

[9:36pm] OrionSteele: expressing your interest.

[9:37pm] OrionSteele: Id love to get in touch about that Brady

[9:37pm] Bosun: Someone from Wiscon will show up … and stay this time.

[9:37pm] OrionSteele: do you have an email address?

[9:38pm] OrionSteele: Last thing I want to mention is that we're finalizing the internship proposals we plan to send to schools in California. We have
proposals for a bunch of different fields, from radio and media to comm, political science, etc. Those are going to be up on the website at calpirateparty.org within the week

[9:38pm] OrionSteele: And are ofc free for all to use in the (hopeful) acquisition of some free intern labor

[9:39pm] OrionSteele: That's pretty much it, especially for the Pirate Hour episode tomorrow I cannot stress enough how important it is for you to email
us beforehand. The google hangout system is far less than ideal, and having a good list of participants beforehand ios pretty key

[9:40pm] OrionSteele: Ok I'm done now

[9:40pm] teamcolt_: Thank you for your novel OrionSteele

[9:40pm] teamcolt_: :)

[9:40pm] OrionSteele: heehe

[9:40pm] Zacqary: (Sorry, was afk. Zacqary Adam Green, NY. Taking over as rep from kusanagi)

[9:41pm] teamcolt_ is now known as TeamColtra.

[9:41pm] TeamColtra was promoted to operator by ChanServ.

[9:41pm] Deamon was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:41pm] Rush was granted voice by TeamColtra.
[
9:41pm] Bosun was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:41pm] Zacqary was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:41pm] OrionSteele was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:42pm] Brady was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:42pm] jarod_ was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:42pm] TeamColtra: Do I have that right?

[9:42pm] kusanagi: no

[9:42pm] kusanagi: Deamon doesn't have voice

[9:43pm] kusanagi: MI is at large

[9:43pm] Deamon had voice removed by TeamColtra.

[9:44pm] Deamon: :(

[9:44pm] kusanagi: sorry

[9:44pm] Deamon: It's cool

[9:44pm] TeamColtra: Okay Wisconsin / Bosun

[9:45pm] Bosun: Not a whole lot here but I'll try ...

[9:46pm] Bosun: We have a whole whopping nine sighned up on our site including a well known blogger and a University Professor.

[9:46pm] jarod joined the chat room.

[9:47pm] kusanagi: awesome

[9:47pm] Brady: That's excellent

[9:47pm] Bosun: The hits on the social medi keep going up. Our treasuer is moving out to Madison (a freshman at UW)

[9:47pm] Brady: Don't make WAPP's mistake.

[9:47pm] jarod_ left the chat room. (Quit: Web client closed)

[9:48pm] Bosun: Francis will try to get a student or. set up at UW.

[9:49pm] Bosun: I should explain. …. it is a but of a family afair … Francis is my son and also on the City of Milwaukee youth council

[9:49pm] kusanagi: Oh!

[9:49pm] kusanagi: that's awesome

[9:49pm] Bosun: I ran for County Executive against Scott Walker in 2004, and twice have ben a delegate to the Wiscons state dem convention from the 4th
CD>

[9:50pm] TeamColtra left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)

[9:50pm] Bosun: And my spouse liked the idea of supporting the Pirate Party …

[9:50pm] kusanagi: awesome, another pirate family!

[9:50pm] Bosun: that is about all for today.

[9:51pm] kusanagi: Cool.

[9:51pm] kusanagi: Ok, since Travis dropped again.

[9:51pm] kusanagi: IT! What's going on?

[9:52pm] kusanagi: matuck-, CalebL[laptop]

[9:52pm] kusanagi: \

[9:52pm] TeamColtra was promoted to operator by ChanServ.

[9:52pm] TeamColtra joined the chat room.

[9:52pm] CalebLangeslag: Well, the wiki has been updated, antispam has been implemented, and the restrictions removed, as well as the spambots
removed

[9:52pm] CalebLangeslag: So everyone's free to register a wiki account and start contributing right away

[9:52pm] CalebLangeslag: And hopefully we can finally crowdsource our resources to the wiki

[9:53pm] CalebLangeslag: And don't worry, it won't self-implode this time or anything, as I'm helping administer it, as well as ensuring that there are
regular backups

[9:53pm] kusanagi: excellent

[9:54pm] TeamColtra: Anything else?

[9:54pm] CalebLangeslag: As of the wiki, I believe that is all.

[9:55pm] TeamColtra: So are you now handling the IT Committee?

[9:55pm] CalebLangeslag: Well, self-proclaimed generally, yes.

[9:55pm] CalebLangeslag: mortona2k (supposedly the head of IT) hasn't been around, even on IRC, for months

[9:55pm] CalebLangeslag: And Matuck is legitimately busy with life

[9:56pm] Brady: Washington says sorry.

[9:56pm] CalebLangeslag: So, I'm not sure if I can be self-appointed for the IT committee or anything. xP

[9:56pm] CalebLangeslag: For?

[9:56pm] CalebLangeslag: and either way, it's fine

[9:56pm] • TeamColtra taps your shoulder with a sword

[9:57pm] TeamColtra: I dub thee the guy responsible for IT for now

[9:57pm] Brady is now known as The_Crowd.

[9:57pm] The_Crowd: HUZZAH

[9:57pm] The_Crowd is now known as Brady.

[9:57pm] Bosun: Huzzah!

[9:57pm] • CalebLangeslag makes a brave, theatric scene.

[9:57pm] kusanagi: huzzah indeed

[9:58pm] TeamColtra: Okay moving on

[9:58pm] TeamColtra: Elections

[9:58pm] TeamColtra: I have a problem when reading the constitution regarding elections

[9:59pm] TeamColtra: it says that they must be held once a year on a date which is specified in another section, but in the section that it links to... doesn't
say anything about a yearly convention

[9:59pm] Zacqary: Motion to allow at-larges to speak about electiony stuff?

[10:00pm] Zacqary: After you're done, Travis.

[10:00pm] TeamColtra: At larges may now speak on this issue, if anyone has an objection feel free to raise it

[10:00pm] Brady: There is already a 'PirateCon'...can we still use this title?

[10:00pm] Deamon: Do we have a date in mind?

[10:00pm] Brady: And does this vote need to be held at a physical location?

[10:01pm] OrionSteele: I certainly hope not

[10:01pm] TeamColtra: Well my problem is the constitutional issue

[10:01pm] Brady: Are you offering to host PirateCon 2013, Orion?

[10:01pm] OrionSteele: I believe the vote should be online to give the most opportunity for participation

[10:01pm] Brady: I think the feasibility of it should have some weight as to the final decision.

[10:01pm] Sacha: Hmm, we should like add an amendment to clarify that problem TeamColtra or perhaps change the wording and make the specifics a by
law

[10:01pm] TeamColtra: For all Officer positions, once every year at the Annual Meeting set forth in Art. VI §2.

[10:01pm] OrionSteele: and I believe the date should be in spring or fall for the same reason

[10:02pm] TeamColtra: Section 2: Building State Parties

[10:02pm] TeamColtra: The Party shall hold such meetings and/or social gatherings as may be needed to build the membership of the party at a state
and local level.

[10:02pm] TeamColtra: The Party shall use all means at its disposal to provide support to such groups as shall arise at a state level, as well as locally,
nationally and internationally to support this goal of facilitating the creation of State Parties in all 50 States and every US Territory.

[10:02pm] Brady: Hmm

[10:02pm] Brady: So we agree there needs to be an annual meeting, yes?

[10:02pm] Brady: Does anyone disagree?

[10:02pm] Deamon: We may have to amend thats ection

[10:02pm] OrionSteele: agree

[10:02pm] TeamColtra: Well it's in the constitution we all passed to have one.

[10:02pm] Brady: So irregardless of the date

[10:03pm] Brady: How about simultaneous conventions for each state, linked Via the internets, once per year

[10:03pm] Bosun: How big a place do we need?

[10:03pm] Brady: And have one big convention every four years

[10:03pm] OrionSteele: September 19th is Intl Talk Like a PIrate Day...that would work for me

[10:03pm] Brady: Hmm

[10:03pm] Bosun: How long?

[10:03pm] Brady: I think it should be around the time a normal political convention would be held.

[10:04pm] Deamon: August September usually

[10:04pm] Brady: Such that it can easily be turned into the Pirate National Convention

[10:04pm] TeamColtra: 2 Months before november isn't a bad time

[10:04pm] Deamon: Give a few months on the run-up to the General

[10:04pm] TeamColtra: IMHO

[10:05pm] Sacha: September makes sense

[10:05pm] Brady: TeamColtra - Just want to make sure it's within the legal time frame of a national convention.

[10:05pm] Bosun: I know some people with a fairly large hall in Milwaukee that I used for a fundraiser.

[10:05pm] Brady: Lemme find the range of dates.

[10:05pm] Sacha: and people seem to be agreeing on that point, I like sep. 19th for the talk like a pirate day which is amusing

[10:05pm] Bosun: I might be able to get it. It is at a brewery, I know the owners.

[10:05pm] OrionSteele: The fact that its on Talk Like a PIrate Day might make it easier to get MSM coverage

[10:06pm] Brady: One reason for the late conventions has to do with campaign finance laws, which allow the candidates to spend an unlimited amount of
money before the convention, but forbid fundraising after the election, in order for the parties to receive federal campaign funds.

[10:06pm] OrionSteele is now known as BRBOrion.

[10:07pm] Brady: I'm not finding the range of dates, but it doesn't appear that there is anything wrong with September.

[10:07pm] Brady: However, the current 'incumbent' party tends to go last.

[10:07pm] Brady: Not like we give a rat.

[10:09pm] TeamColtra: Okay so

[10:09pm] Brady: One problem would be some states require conventions to be held by the end of July.

[10:09pm] TeamColtra: do we need to make an amendment?

[10:09pm] kusanagi: Those would be for state parties, Brady

[10:10pm] Brady: To appear on the Washington ballot as a presidential candidate

[10:10pm] Brady: http://www.sos.wa.gov/_assets/elections/Appearing-on-the-Presidential-ballot.pdf

[10:10pm] Brady: I think this is why Romney is not eligible to appear on the WA ballot

[10:11pm] BRBOrion is now known as OrionSteele.

[10:11pm] Brady: TeamColtra - Do you think we need to choose a date first?

[10:11pm] Brady: Or at least a date range?

[10:11pm] TeamColtra: That's what the amendment needs to be

[10:12pm] Brady: I think a date range would be best.

[10:12pm] TeamColtra: because we need to add subpoint 3 under Section 2

[10:12pm] Brady: Like, "At least two months before the November 4th elections"

[10:13pm] TeamColtra: Well not elections

[10:13pm] Brady: Or "during the time period when political conventions are typically held leading up to a national election'

[10:13pm] TeamColtra: like next year there wont be "november 4th elections"

[10:13pm] Brady: Ah, sorry.

[10:13pm] Deamon: Maybe a certain day of the week on a certain week like regular elections

[10:13pm] TeamColtra: in 2 years there will be, for representatives and stuff.

[10:13pm] Brady: My suggestion was that we should just use that same date range so people have regularity.

[10:13pm] Deamon: First Monday of the Second week or something

[10:13pm] Brady: Maybe that's silly though

[10:14pm] TeamColtra: I honestly don't know

[10:14pm] Deamon: just a suggestion

[10:14pm] Brady: So for now, can we avoid setting a specific date?

[10:14pm] TeamColtra: We can set a date in a bylaw

[10:14pm] TeamColtra: and set a timeframe in the constitution

[10:15pm] Brady: Hell, then let's just go with Sept. 19th for now. We can always change it

[10:15pm] TeamColtra: Well we still /have/ to do an amendment

[10:15pm] Sacha: I would agree with making it a by law

[10:15pm] Brady: I'm fine with using Sept. 19th

[10:15pm] Brady: Though that's not much time to prepare.

[10:15pm] Brady: =3

[10:15pm] Sacha: I think that we need an amendment to change the language in the consitution as it points to an unrelated section

[10:16pm] Sacha: We can always choose to not have it this year

[10:16pm] Sacha: as we are still getting everything together

[10:16pm] Sacha: or just have our elections on that day

[10:16pm] TeamColtra: Wherever we do the amendment, something needs amending

[10:16pm] Brady: Hmm

[10:16pm] Brady: Don't we need to have official elections anyway?

[10:16pm] TeamColtra: Sacha, can you identify for the record?

[10:17pm] Sacha: Yes, apologies for being late

[10:17pm] Sacha: Amanda Johnson, Michigan

[10:18pm] TeamColtra: Does someone want to put forth an Amendment?

[10:18pm] Brady: So specifically we are amending Art. VI §2.?

[10:18pm] TeamColtra: I would suggest it

[10:19pm] TeamColtra: I would add to create section 2 subpoint 3

[10:19pm] Brady: That sounds about right

[10:20pm] Brady: Temp pad for editing: https://piratenpad.de/OAHv5HiVqD

[10:20pm] TeamColtra: If I was making a motion it would be "Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly meeting shall
be held no later than 2 months before November the 4"

[10:21pm] OrionSteele: a yearly meeting shall be held online?

[10:21pm] Brady: Eh

[10:22pm] Rush: It always used to be

[10:22pm] TeamColtra: If we hold it online or in person, it doesn't matter we are just creating the legal precident to hold an election

[10:22pm] Zacqary left the chat room. (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347])

[10:22pm] Brady: I would say more like a onvention which is streamed, and individuals can participate electronically

[10:22pm] TeamColtra: We can define it better in a bylaw

[10:22pm] OrionSteele: ok

[10:23pm] kusanagi: TeamColtra: Zac had to leave, I'm back as NY rep

[10:23pm] OrionSteele: then i second

[10:23pm] TeamColtra: Yes, I was just going to announce that

[10:23pm] TeamColtra: You can't actually second me

[10:23pm] TeamColtra: I can't make motions

[10:23pm] kusanagi: lol

[10:23pm] OrionSteele: o theni make the motion toAmend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly meeting shall be held no
later than 2 months before November the 4"

[10:23pm] kusanagi: i second

[10:24pm] Bosun: September 19th is 1 month 16 days prior to november 4th

[10:24pm] Deamon: Oops

[10:24pm] TeamColtra: Okay the debate is on the motion presented by OrionSteele

[10:24pm] TeamColtra: Does anyone have any disagreement with his motion?

[10:24pm] CalebLangeslag: Well, how is '2 months before' determined?

[10:24pm] TeamColtra: CalebLangeslag we will clearify it by bylaw

[10:25pm] Bosun: That would be September 4th

[10:25pm] CalebLangeslag: or perhaps I'm just being too nitpicky, even though it may seem obvious

[10:25pm] TeamColtra: Yeah... that's true, but I don't think we can go much later. Even though Talk Like A Pirate Day would be good

[10:26pm] OrionSteele: its probably just a hair too late for a national convention

[10:26pm] TeamColtra: CalebLangeslag your not being nitpicky -- but what if we are actually renting a convention hall or something but they don't have
the place open on tuesday, but they do on wednesday... then we wouldh ave to make an amendment to the constitution to change the date

[10:26pm] TeamColtra: if we outline a general date... and then define it in a bylaw

[10:26pm] Bosun: Should not September 4th be the day set by congress for the presidential election?

[10:26pm] TeamColtra: we can quickly change the date if needed

[10:27pm] Deamon: what do you mean Bosun

[10:27pm] Brady: Section 3: Annual Election Convention

[10:27pm] Brady: A yearly meeting shall be held no later than 2 months before November the 4th as defined in XXX bylaw

[10:28pm] TeamColtra: I also don't think defining the bylaw is a good idea, and it's also impossible since we currently have no system for bylaws

[10:28pm] TeamColtra:

[10:28pm] TeamColtra: The bylaw itself will affect it, it's not actually required to state that there is a bylaw on it

[10:28pm] Bosun: peg the date to the election date set by congress … the language is more general

[10:29pm] Brady: A yearly meeting shall be held no later than 2 months before November the 4th as defined in the bylaws*

[10:29pm] TeamColtra: There is no one date I believe... because the RNC and DNC conventions are on different days

[10:29pm] TeamColtra: Brady that would work

[10:29pm] TeamColtra: I would accept that as a friendly amendment

[10:29pm] TeamColtra: since that was already implied

[10:29pm] TeamColtra: as long as OrionSteele accepts it, since it's his motion

[10:30pm] Brady: So help me craft this proposed amendment in the pad

[10:30pm] OrionSteele: accept

[10:30pm] kusanagi: relink that, brady?

[10:30pm] Sacha: I would personally rather go with less specific language

[10:30pm] Sacha: for the constitution and then more specific for the by laws

[10:30pm] CalebLangeslag: https://piratenpad.de/OAHv5HiVqD

[10:31pm] Sacha: as they are easier to amend and that would make elections more flexible to our needs

[10:31pm] Brady: https://piratenpad.de/OAHv5HiVqD

[10:31pm] Brady: Should we just say "No later than September 4th"?

[10:31pm] Rush: Guys, I need to leave. I have a thing to go to early tomorrow morning and then there's the other stuff. I'll read the log tomorrow.

[10:31pm] Brady: Sacha has a good point.

[10:31pm] Rush left the chat room. (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)

[10:32pm] Brady: "A yearly meeting shall be held before November 4th as defined in the bylaws."

[10:32pm] Brady: That might be TOO vague though

[10:32pm] OrionSteele: accept

[10:32pm] TeamColtra: lol I think thats a bit too vague

[10:32pm] Brady: How about a 'yearly convention'

[10:32pm] jarod left the chat room. (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

[10:32pm] Brady: Convention implies something more formal.

[10:32pm] OrionSteele: I feel like it doesn't matter so long as we provide space for us to hammer out the details later

[10:33pm] Brady: It's probably a good idea to at least explain why this meeting is neeed

[10:34pm] OrionSteele: "A yearly meeting will be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified through the bylaws"

[10:34pm] TeamColtra: That would need to be an amendment to the current motion

[10:34pm] Brady: Check the pad now?

[10:34pm] OrionSteele: Before I offer it as formal amendment

[10:34pm] OrionSteele: Id like to see what people think of that wording

[10:35pm] kusanagi: I think that's perfect

[10:35pm] Deamon: Works for me

[10:35pm] TeamColtra: Nope

[10:35pm] Sacha: I think the wording is too complicated

[10:35pm] TeamColtra: This is a little silly but I have to:

[10:35pm] TeamColtra: Your pad says that you are creating section 3

[10:35pm] TeamColtra: it has to be in section 2

[10:35pm] TeamColtra: as a subpoint

[10:36pm] Deamon: silly, but right

[10:36pm] OrionSteele: Then I cancel my previous motion and instead motion to Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A
yearly meeting shall be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws."

[10:36pm] TeamColtra: You can't cancel out a motion either

[10:36pm] OrionSteele: o

[10:36pm] OrionSteele:

[10:36pm] TeamColtra: Sorry...

[10:36pm] Sacha: What about: A yearly election will be held at a date specified through the bylaws

[10:36pm] TeamColtra: Because it was seconded so it's no longer "your" motion

[10:36pm] TeamColtra: it's the floors motion

[10:36pm] Sacha: My friend is here with me and I think the previous wording was too complex for someone not in on the conversation to understand

[10:37pm] Bosun: we could vote down the floor motion and redo.

[10:37pm] Sacha: correction: it's ambiguous not so much complicated

[10:37pm] TeamColtra: Bosun it's easier to just make it an amendment to the motion

[10:37pm] OrionSteele: This wording: A yearly meeting shall be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws

[10:37pm] Sacha: I think that is really ambiguous and confusing wording

[10:37pm] Deamon: That pretty much defines a convention

[10:38pm] sadyya joined the chat room.

[10:38pm] Sacha: I think there are unnecessary words which we could adjust to be more clear

[10:38pm] TeamColtra: btw, guys, for the most part I am just following roberts rules (except when roberts rules doesn't work for IRC) -- so if you want to know why I am doing what I am doing or have questions, please feel free to check out a copy of Roberts Rules, since it's just the basics you can even get
the public domain version

[10:38pm] TeamColtra: just a point of order

[10:38pm] Sacha: I think "A yearly meeting shall be held at a date specified in the bylaws" says everything we need to know

[10:39pm] OrionSteele: that doesnt say what its for

[10:39pm] Deamon: It needs the purpose of elections

[10:39pm] OrionSteele: amend the floor's motion to instead read, " Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly meeting shall be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws."

[10:39pm] Bosun: an anual convention

[10:39pm] OrionSteele: motion to amend...or whatever

[10:39pm] TeamColtra: is there a second?

[10:39pm] TeamColtra: close enough

[10:40pm] Bosun: second

[10:40pm] TeamColtra: Okay so to clearify, we are no longer debating the merits of the amendment... but rather we are now debating if we should use
this amendment vs the original wording.

[10:41pm] TeamColtra: Does any member object to this wording vs the origional?

[10:41pm] Sacha: Sorry, I meant "yearly elections" not meeting, my bad.

[10:41pm] TeamColtra: The origional was Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly meeting shall be held no later than 2
months before November the 4"

[10:41pm] Brady: Section 2 is Creating State Parties

[10:41pm] TeamColtra: and the new amendment to the motion is on the floor: Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A
yearly meeting shall be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws.

[10:42pm] Bosun: I favor the amended text.

[10:42pm] OrionSteele: as do I

[10:42pm] TeamColtra: I will give a few seconds for anyone to say they object, otherwise we will vote on it

[10:42pm] Brady: I object to the term 'meeting' and would like to propose the term 'convention'.

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: I can accept that as a friendly amendment

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: if OrionSteele can

[10:43pm] OrionSteele: accept

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: Any other objections?

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: If you do just type object

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: and then type your reasoning

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: otherwise I am moving on

[10:44pm] TeamColtra: Okay we are voting on: Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly convention shall be held for
the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws. to amend the motion on the floor Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with
the text: A yearly meeting shall be held no later than 2 months before November the 4"

[10:44pm] OrionSteele: aye

[10:44pm] TeamColtra: So by voting aye you are just approving the amendment not the motion in general

[10:44pm] Brady: Aye

[10:44pm] Bosun: aye

[10:44pm] Deamon: aye

[10:45pm] kusanagi: aye

[10:45pm] Brady: Point of Reference - Current minimum for a quorum?

[10:45pm] TeamColtra: I observe 1/2 to be quorum

[10:46pm] TeamColtra: sorry 1/2 of total members

[10:46pm] TeamColtra: which I believe is currently 8

[10:46pm] TeamColtra: so 4

[10:46pm] kusanagi: we're at that right now, as rush had to leave.

[10:46pm] TeamColtra: Yeah

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: So no one else leave

[10:47pm] TeamColtra:

[10:47pm] kusanagi: OrionSteele: ping

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: He voted

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: I am calling the vote btw

[10:47pm] kusanagi: oh ok

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: kusanagi tally?

[10:47pm] kusanagi: 4 for, at large for

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: Thank you

[10:47pm] kusanagi: amendment approved

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: now does anyone want to talk about the motion in general?

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: or do we just want to vote?

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: we only need to discuss if someone has an objection

[10:48pm] TeamColtra: Okay seeing no objection

[10:48pm] Brady: No objections from Washington.

[10:48pm] TeamColtra: We are voting on Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly convention shall be held for the
purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws

[10:49pm] TeamColtra: agree say aye, disagree say nay

[10:49pm] Bosun: aye

[10:49pm] Deamon: aye

[10:49pm] Brady: Aye - Washington

[10:49pm] OrionSteele: aye

[10:49pm] themgt: aye

[10:50pm] TeamColtra: kusanagi

[10:50pm] kusanagi: aye

[10:50pm] TeamColtra: called

[10:50pm] kusanagi: 4 for at large for

[10:51pm] TeamColtra: Okay

[10:53pm] TeamColtra: The amendment passes and goes into effect

[10:53pm] TeamColtra: So CalebLangeslag are you around?

[10:53pm] TeamColtra: actually sorry

[10:53pm] TeamColtra: So what is our plan now for elections?

[10:54pm] CalebLangeslag: Well, yes, I am

[10:54pm] TeamColtra: CalebLangeslag your issue will be addressed next

[10:55pm] Bosun: should we establish an ad hoc convention comitee?

[10:55pm] CalebLangeslag: For elections, there hasn't really been much discussion within the IT committee, since there barely is one

[10:55pm] Brady: Washington motion that an ad goc Convention Committee shall be discussed at the next meeting.

[10:56pm] TeamColtra: seconds?

[10:56pm] kusanagi: yes

[10:56pm] kusanagi: New York seconds

[10:56pm] OrionSteele: second
[10:57pm] TeamColtra: Conversation?

[10:57pm] TeamColtra:

[10:58pm] kusanagi: there really isn't one.

[10:58pm] kusanagi: lol

[10:58pm] kusanagi: yes, let's talk about that at next meeting?

[10:58pm] TeamColtra: Do we have anyone who wants to head it? I would suggest not having someone who intends to run

[10:58pm] Sacha: I would be willing but i'm not sure if I have the credentials

[10:59pm] Bosun: I will. I run for nothing.

[11:00pm] Brady: Washington wanted to host a convention next year, but we'd have to make some serious changes to do that.

[11:00pm] Brady: Seriously, we need someone who has run a con before.

[11:00pm] Brady: It's a huge task.

[11:00pm] TeamColtra: Brady can we stick to our current election?

[11:00pm] kusanagi: Bosun has the experience

[11:00pm] Brady: Apologies.

[11:01pm] OrionSteele: second Bosun

[11:01pm] OrionSteele: (is that how it works?)

[11:01pm] Sacha: If Bosun wants to I support that

[11:01pm] Sacha: is it irl

[11:01pm] CalebLangeslag: Isn't this just discussion of bringing it up at the next meeting, rather than already assigning roles? xP

[11:02pm] OrionSteele: lol yes

[11:02pm] kusanagi: yes, CalebL[laptop]

[11:02pm] kusanagi: erm

[11:02pm] kusanagi: CalebLangeslag:

[11:02pm] Brady: In that case, can we vote on the motion?

[11:02pm] kusanagi:

[11:02pm] Brady: To have it added to the schedule for next week?

[11:02pm] kusanagi: We should

[11:02pm] Bosun: Give it a week and I'll discuss it with our Wisconsin Membership in the interm.

[11:03pm] TeamColtra: So we don't want to vote on this?

[11:03pm] TeamColtra: (to have an election committee)

[11:03pm] TeamColtra: or do we?

[11:03pm] Bosun: Can we just request the chair to add it to next weeks agenda?

[11:03pm] kusanagi: we should vote on that next week

[11:04pm] Bosun: table the motion

[11:04pm] TeamColtra: Okay

[11:04pm] TeamColtra: I will just do that

[11:04pm] Brady: I second the motion(?) to table the current motion.

[11:04pm] TeamColtra: we don't need to vote

[11:04pm] TeamColtra: Executive order

[11:05pm] TeamColtra: Anything else that needs to be discussed then? Or do we want to adjourn?

[11:05pm] Brady: Is the item regarding PNC involvement in state formation something that needs to be covered?

[11:05pm] kusanagi: there's still the item CalebLangeslag brought up

[11:05pm] CalebLangeslag: It's not mandatory

[11:06pm] kusanagi: and CullenMatthews has something on AOB as well.

[11:06pm] Bosun: move to adjourn

[11:06pm] Bosun: I withdraw my motion

[11:06pm] TeamColtra: CullenMatthews, would you like to present?

[11:07pm] CullenMatthews: yes

[11:08pm] TeamColtra: I need to step away (with no respect to CullenMatthews ) I should be back in a minute or two... if things wind down and I am not
here kusanagi can close the meeting in my stead.

[11:08pm] TeamColtra: err no disrespect*

[11:08pm] kusanagi: sure, no problem.

[11:09pm] • kusanagi puts on all three hats

[11:09pm] CullenMatthews: i mentioned in the forums about an international project, i'd figured we needed to get into the media more by making some
sort of political campaign video not just showing US Pirates but all the pirate parties to show the world that we are not alone in our beliefs. again this was
just a thought.

[11:09pm] Deamon: I can help you on that

[11:09pm] kusanagi: there has been some media interest in USPP

[11:10pm] kusanagi: all of it seems to be international media

[11:10pm] kusanagi: Honestly, I don't see why we would need to make an international video; only FLPP is in PPI right now

[11:10pm] kusanagi: We need domestic coverage.

[11:11pm] Sacha: We should keep AGPPP in mind as well

[11:11pm] sadyya: maybe an individual state by state youtube video project?

[11:11pm] sadyya: im just say a suggestion

[11:11pm] OrionSteele: we are doing videos

[11:11pm] sadyya: one that will get people to what we do

[11:11pm] Sacha: if we are working with international, I would also point out that international coverage could be a good way to get domestic press and we shouldn't reject any press

[11:12pm] kusanagi: We're not really working with international.

[11:12pm] kusanagi: i like cullen's idea

[11:12pm] kusanagi: but we could do it as a sort of "meet a pirate" campaign

[11:12pm] kusanagi: post it on our various social media things

[11:12pm] sadyya: yea

[11:13pm] Deamon: Please don't make it like the I'm a Morman campaign though

[11:13pm] kusanagi: and i'm tossing around the idea of #askapirate on twitter

[11:13pm] Deamon: those get creepy

[11:13pm] kusanagi: Deamon: lololol

[11:13pm] sadyya: hahahahaha

[11:13pm] sadyya: ... and I'm a pirate...

[11:13pm] CullenMatthews: lol

[11:13pm] Deamon: If someone can send me the footage I can chop it up and make a YouTube page

[11:13pm] Deamon: It's something I'm very familiar with

[11:14pm] kusanagi: and really, the CAPP meetings are a great launching point for such a project.

[11:14pm] Bosun: CullenMatthews are you in or near Chicago? Can sadyya and I meet with you?

[11:14pm] kusanagi: and Pirate Hour

[11:14pm] CullenMatthews: I will be commuting to the city starting Septemeber 5 for clases at DePaul university

[11:15pm] Sacha: Deamon would be great for this

[11:15pm] Sacha: and I know CAPP may be a bit busy with their own stuff

[11:15pm] Bosun: ooh brown line stop. I'll buy deep dish pizza.

[11:15pm] Sacha: He has a youtube channel he's been doing for years, so I would personally put him on the project if I was making decisions

[11:16pm] ana left the chat room. (Quit: Web client closed)

[11:16pm] kusanagi: Ok, that's awesome.

[11:17pm] itspara joined the chat room.

[11:17pm] kusanagi: this is something that really needs to be fleshed out more than just this before people are put on the project.

[11:17pm] sadyya: oooo Bosun yes ill come

[11:18pm] OrionSteele: yes we would be interested in helping with this, or having it be included as part of the pirate media network

[11:18pm] OrionSteele: lets work out a more detailed plan of what we want to do

[11:18pm] kusanagi: that would work really well

[11:18pm] Deamon: Definately, Cullen, hit me up at some point if you need help with setup

[11:19pm] kusanagi: yay

[11:19pm] kusanagi: ok, so do you all what to flesh this out now?

[11:21pm] kusanagi: or do you guys want to bring this to sab or next week?

[11:21pm] Brady: Rather than #askapirate how about #youareapirate?

[11:21pm] Deamon: We'll work out the details and present later

[11:21pm] OrionSteele: i say spend the week thinking of the ideas and next week have a proposal

[11:22pm] kusanagi: Brady: that was just the twitter hashtag

[11:22pm] Brady: kusanagi - Let's talk about it after adjournment.

[11:22pm] sadyya: i like the twitter hash tag

[11:22pm] kusanagi: sure

[11:23pm] Bosun: I like #youareapirate.

[11:23pm] Brady: So this is also being pushed to the next meeting?

[11:23pm] Brady: Should we motion to adjourn?

[11:23pm] kusanagi: I'm asking you guys.

[11:23pm] kusanagi: I'm acting chair

[11:24pm] Bosun: motion to adjourn

[11:24pm] sadyya: yup

[11:24pm] Brady: I second Bosun's motion to adjourn.

[11:24pm] kusanagi: ok

[11:25pm] kusanagi: one thing

[11:25pm] kusanagi: I have access to USPirates on twitter

[11:26pm] kusanagi: So if you want me to tweet meetings, facebook pages, twitters, etc

[11:26pm] kusanagi: let me know, by IRC or email, kusanagi.chroma@gmail

[11:26pm] sadyya: ok

[11:27pm] kusanagi: so, vote to adjourn?

[11:27pm] Deamon: aye

[11:27pm] Brady: Aye

[11:27pm] CullenMatthews: aye

[11:28pm] Bosun: aye

[11:28pm] kusanagi: and aye from me as well

[11:28pm] kusanagi: good night guys, meeting is next wednesday

PNC 8/15/12

2012-08-18T00:42:09Z

Kusanagi: /* 5 - Agenda Items */

{{PNC MINUTES NAV}}
:''Agenda PNC MEETING'''
::'''--- 08/15/2012 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: [http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12 http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12]

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*participating:
**Orion Steele /Jake Ziering, CA
**Joseph T. Klein/Megan Cochran, WI
**Bradley Hall, FL
**Lindsay-Anne Brunner/Zacqary Green, NY
**Brady O'bannon Dibble, WA

*excused
**Oregon
**Massachutsetts
**Washington

*unexcused
**Georgia

*probation
**Oklahoma, 5th meeting missed

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====
*Paul Meserve, NC
*James Eastman, Jr./Amanda Johnson, MI
*Cullen Matthews, IL
*Caleb Langslag, MI

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting opened at: 09:11pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting closed at: 11:28pm EDT by Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Meeting chaired by Travis McCrea and Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Secretary for this meeting is Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Quorum is established: Members 5 out of 8 present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/8/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===
====4.1 - Short report of the board members ====
=====Massachusetts=====
**excused

=====Washington=====
*Washington has had some problems with the party stagnating and will be stepping back to help boost their ranks.

=====Oregon=====
**excused

=====Georgia====
**Absent

=====Florida=====
*A few new members have contracted them about joining and working with them. Brad is beginning work on No Safe Harbor 2.

=====New York=====
*NYPP approved the PNC constitution last week, and starting work on asynchronymous meetings and liquid feedback. Pirate Choir video still in progress

=====California=====
*Calling vote on ratifying the PNC constitution, and an answer is expected in a few days, with ratification the likely result.
*Major work has begun on the Pirate Rado project: and internet radio station broadcasting music that is collected from artists who contribute along with Pirate information, speeches, podcasts and more. in the process of compiling a list of those interested, please email calpirateparty@gmail. There will be another episode of the Pirate Hour tomorrow night, featuring Travis McCrea. Please email calpirateparty@gmail if you are interested in participating.
*Finally, finalizing the internship proposals we plan to send to schools in California. We have proposals for a bunch of different fields, from radio and media to comm, political science, etc. Those are going to be up on the website at calpirateparty.org within the week

=====Wisconsin=====
*Nine people have signed up on their site, including a university professor and a well-known blogger. Treasurer is moving to Madison for university, and will try to set up a student organization

==== 4.2 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====
*If anything needs to be updated, please contact Caleb from MN

*Wiki has been updated, Spambots and restrictions removed, antispam inplememented, so all can contribute to the wiki. Hopefully this will begin the crowdsourcing of resources on the wiki. It is being backed up regularly, and Caleb is person-responsible for IT.

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===
*Elections
**Proposed amendment in the works to establish a date for a national convention
***Vote held to approve the wording of the amendment
****4 for, at-large for
***Vote held to amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly convention shall be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws
****4 for, at-large for.
****Amendment passes and goes into immediate effect.

*Washington motion that an ad hoc Convention Committee shall be discussed at the next meeting.
**No vote held, added to next meeting's agenda.

=== - AOB - ===
would a roberts rules bot make meeting go more smoothly? - passstab, PA (skipped)
Pirate Introduction video - Cullen, IL

*Next meeting: Wednesday, August 22nd at 9PM EDT
*Meeting closed: 11:28pm

==Logs==
[9:12pm] teamcoltra: I will chair this meeting, and kusanagi will be secretary.

[9:12pm] teamcoltra: Let's do roll call

[9:13pm] OrionSteele: Orion Steele / Jake Ziering - California

[9:13pm] Bosun: Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin

[9:13pm] Rush: Bradley Hall, Florida

[9:13pm] CalebLangeslag: Caleb Langeslag, Minnesota

[9:13pm] kusanagi: Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY

[9:13pm] themgt: Paul Meserve, North Carolina

[9:13pm] sadyya: Megan Cochran Wisconsin

[9:13pm] Deamon: James Eastman Jr., Michigan

[9:13pm] CullenMatthews: Cullen Matthews, Illinois

[9:13pm] ana left the chat room. (Quit: Web client closed)

[9:14pm] ana joined the chat room.

[9:14pm] teamcoltra: Everyone please review last weeks meeting minutes http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/8/12

[9:15pm] sadyya left the chat room. (Quit: sadyya)

[9:15pm] jarod_ joined the chat room.

[9:15pm] teamcoltra: I will give us about 3 minutes... if anyone needs more time feel free to ask

[9:15pm] Sacha joined the chat room.

[9:17pm] kusanagi: Brady, you're not the WA rep?

[9:17pm] Brady: I was not intending to be.

[9:18pm] kusanagi: there isn't a rep, can you fill in:?

[9:18pm] Brady: Not many other options, as we aren't officially excused.

[9:19pm] Brady: I will fill in to the best of my ability for my state, though I will step down if and when our official rep arrives.

[9:19pm] teamcoltra: Brady - Jeffery was under the interpretation he was the only Washington member left

[9:19pm] kusanagi: jeff did say he couldn't make it

[9:19pm] teamcoltra: He stated to me that he was taking a leave of absence from the PNC entirely until the WAPP was more than just him

[9:19pm] Brady: Pretty much everyone is under a huge workload, has health issues, or both.

[9:20pm] teamcoltra: Okay everyone should have now read last weeks minutes

[9:20pm] teamcoltra: let's do updates from states

[9:21pm] teamcoltra: We will start tonight with Washington, but don't feel obligated to present much Brady

[9:21pm] teamcoltra: I know your on the spot now

[9:21pm] Brady: Washington does have issues.

[9:21pm] Brady: Which should be quite obvious.

[9:21pm] Brady: The party was started by 5 core members, who all already had full lives.

[9:22pm] Brady: However, we focused too much on the structure and not enough on recruitment.

[9:22pm] kusi left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)

[9:22pm] Brady: I almost hate to say it, but K`Tetch was fairly on the mark for what WA should have done.

[9:22pm] Brady: We failed to recruit and inject new blood into the group.

[9:22pm] Brady: As a result, we have stagnated.

[9:23pm] Brady: So for the time being, we will be working on rebuilding our foundation and expanding our active member count.

[9:24pm] Brady: We have attempted to connect with the Cascadia movement, but they are not interested.

[9:24pm] Brady: And, from what I understand, they are actually somewhat of a separatist movement which does not necessarily jive with Pirate ideals.

[9:24pm] kusanagi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

[9:25pm] Brady: Please excuse our relative lack of input for the next few months.

[9:25pm] Brady: That is all.

[9:25pm] teamcoltra: Thanks for that insightful report Brady! :)

[9:25pm] teamcoltra: Rush / Florida?

[9:25pm] kusanagi (~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) has joined #pnc

[9:25pm] Rush: Oh

[9:26pm] kusanagi: sorry about that, plug was pulled

[9:26pm] Rush: We haven't really done much. A few new possible members just contacted us Monday, we're planning on working with them and hopefully
start doing awesome things soon.

[9:27pm] Rush: I will start actually working on NSH2 soon as well. That's gonna rock.

[9:27pm] Rush: Tha'ts all

[9:27pm] teamcoltra: Both very awesome.

[9:28pm] teamcoltra: kusanagi what's going on with NY?

[9:28pm] kusanagi: Well, last week we approved the PNC constitution

[9:28pm] kusanagi: and we're starting work on asynched meetings and liquid feedback.

[9:29pm] kusanagi: that's pretty much all i can think of right now.

[9:30pm] kusanagi: Zacqary: are you here to add more?

[9:30pm] themgt: what's NSH2?

[9:30pm] Rush: No Safe Harbor 2

[9:31pm] Rush: www.nosafeharbor.com

[9:31pm] themgt: gotcha

[9:31pm] teamcolt_ joined the chat room.

[9:31pm] teamcolt_: Sorry my internet disco'd It looks like NY has answered (or are you still going?)

[9:32pm] kusanagi: I did answer, and just finished.

[9:32pm] teamcolt_: Sweet, OrionSteele / California

[9:32pm] teamcoltra left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)

[9:32pm] OrionSteele: are we being called on?

[9:32pm] kusanagi: yes

[9:33pm] kusanagi: state update please

[9:33pm] teamcolt_: Yes, your update

[9:33pm] OrionSteele: ok so there's a fair amount going on over here, I'll try to sum it up\

[9:33pm] OrionSteele: first we're calling votes on PNC ratification within the CPP, so we should have an answer (ratification most likely) within a few days

[9:34pm] OrionSteele: second, we're starting major work on our Pirate Radio project, which is to have an Internet radio station broadcasting music which
we collect from contributing artists along with pirate information, cool speeches, podcasts, etc

[9:35pm] OrionSteele: along those lines we're compiling an email list of interested artists and/or organizers, if you want to take part in that send an email to calpirateparty@gmail

[9:36pm] Brady: Washington knows someone who may be interested. He has the archives of all the old Pirate Radio episodes.

[9:36pm] OrionSteele: ]We're also doing another episode of the Pirate Hour tomorrow, this time with Travis McCrea..it should be a really good opportunity
to broadcast ourselves and get our message out. I understand there is some interest from other state parties in joining the hangout - we do have available space, so I'm sure whoever wants to come we can work out a spot for. The important thing would be sending an email to calpirateparty@gmail between now an

[9:36pm] OrionSteele: expressing your interest.

[9:37pm] OrionSteele: Id love to get in touch about that Brady

[9:37pm] Bosun: Someone from Wiscon will show up … and stay this time.

[9:37pm] OrionSteele: do you have an email address?

[9:38pm] OrionSteele: Last thing I want to mention is that we're finalizing the internship proposals we plan to send to schools in California. We have
proposals for a bunch of different fields, from radio and media to comm, political science, etc. Those are going to be up on the website at calpirateparty.org within the week

[9:38pm] OrionSteele: And are ofc free for all to use in the (hopeful) acquisition of some free intern labor

[9:39pm] OrionSteele: That's pretty much it, especially for the Pirate Hour episode tomorrow I cannot stress enough how important it is for you to email
us beforehand. The google hangout system is far less than ideal, and having a good list of participants beforehand ios pretty key

[9:40pm] OrionSteele: Ok I'm done now

[9:40pm] teamcolt_: Thank you for your novel OrionSteele

[9:40pm] teamcolt_: :)

[9:40pm] OrionSteele: heehe

[9:40pm] Zacqary: (Sorry, was afk. Zacqary Adam Green, NY. Taking over as rep from kusanagi)

[9:41pm] teamcolt_ is now known as TeamColtra.

[9:41pm] TeamColtra was promoted to operator by ChanServ.

[9:41pm] Deamon was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:41pm] Rush was granted voice by TeamColtra.
[
9:41pm] Bosun was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:41pm] Zacqary was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:41pm] OrionSteele was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:42pm] Brady was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:42pm] jarod_ was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:42pm] TeamColtra: Do I have that right?

[9:42pm] kusanagi: no

[9:42pm] kusanagi: Deamon doesn't have voice

[9:43pm] kusanagi: MI is at large

[9:43pm] Deamon had voice removed by TeamColtra.

[9:44pm] Deamon: :(

[9:44pm] kusanagi: sorry

[9:44pm] Deamon: It's cool

[9:44pm] TeamColtra: Okay Wisconsin / Bosun

[9:45pm] Bosun: Not a whole lot here but I'll try ...

[9:46pm] Bosun: We have a whole whopping nine sighned up on our site including a well known blogger and a University Professor.

[9:46pm] jarod joined the chat room.

[9:47pm] kusanagi: awesome

[9:47pm] Brady: That's excellent

[9:47pm] Bosun: The hits on the social medi keep going up. Our treasuer is moving out to Madison (a freshman at UW)

[9:47pm] Brady: Don't make WAPP's mistake.

[9:47pm] jarod_ left the chat room. (Quit: Web client closed)

[9:48pm] Bosun: Francis will try to get a student or. set up at UW.

[9:49pm] Bosun: I should explain. …. it is a but of a family afair … Francis is my son and also on the City of Milwaukee youth council

[9:49pm] kusanagi: Oh!

[9:49pm] kusanagi: that's awesome

[9:49pm] Bosun: I ran for County Executive against Scott Walker in 2004, and twice have ben a delegate to the Wiscons state dem convention from the 4th
CD>

[9:50pm] TeamColtra left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)

[9:50pm] Bosun: And my spouse liked the idea of supporting the Pirate Party …

[9:50pm] kusanagi: awesome, another pirate family!

[9:50pm] Bosun: that is about all for today.

[9:51pm] kusanagi: Cool.

[9:51pm] kusanagi: Ok, since Travis dropped again.

[9:51pm] kusanagi: IT! What's going on?

[9:52pm] kusanagi: matuck-, CalebL[laptop]

[9:52pm] kusanagi: \

[9:52pm] TeamColtra was promoted to operator by ChanServ.

[9:52pm] TeamColtra joined the chat room.

[9:52pm] CalebLangeslag: Well, the wiki has been updated, antispam has been implemented, and the restrictions removed, as well as the spambots
removed

[9:52pm] CalebLangeslag: So everyone's free to register a wiki account and start contributing right away

[9:52pm] CalebLangeslag: And hopefully we can finally crowdsource our resources to the wiki

[9:53pm] CalebLangeslag: And don't worry, it won't self-implode this time or anything, as I'm helping administer it, as well as ensuring that there are
regular backups

[9:53pm] kusanagi: excellent

[9:54pm] TeamColtra: Anything else?

[9:54pm] CalebLangeslag: As of the wiki, I believe that is all.

[9:55pm] TeamColtra: So are you now handling the IT Committee?

[9:55pm] CalebLangeslag: Well, self-proclaimed generally, yes.

[9:55pm] CalebLangeslag: mortona2k (supposedly the head of IT) hasn't been around, even on IRC, for months

[9:55pm] CalebLangeslag: And Matuck is legitimately busy with life

[9:56pm] Brady: Washington says sorry.

[9:56pm] CalebLangeslag: So, I'm not sure if I can be self-appointed for the IT committee or anything. xP

[9:56pm] CalebLangeslag: For?

[9:56pm] CalebLangeslag: and either way, it's fine

[9:56pm] • TeamColtra taps your shoulder with a sword

[9:57pm] TeamColtra: I dub thee the guy responsible for IT for now

[9:57pm] Brady is now known as The_Crowd.

[9:57pm] The_Crowd: HUZZAH

[9:57pm] The_Crowd is now known as Brady.

[9:57pm] Bosun: Huzzah!

[9:57pm] • CalebLangeslag makes a brave, theatric scene.

[9:57pm] kusanagi: huzzah indeed

[9:58pm] TeamColtra: Okay moving on

[9:58pm] TeamColtra: Elections

[9:58pm] TeamColtra: I have a problem when reading the constitution regarding elections

[9:59pm] TeamColtra: it says that they must be held once a year on a date which is specified in another section, but in the section that it links to... doesn't
say anything about a yearly convention

[9:59pm] Zacqary: Motion to allow at-larges to speak about electiony stuff?

[10:00pm] Zacqary: After you're done, Travis.

[10:00pm] TeamColtra: At larges may now speak on this issue, if anyone has an objection feel free to raise it

[10:00pm] Brady: There is already a 'PirateCon'...can we still use this title?

[10:00pm] Deamon: Do we have a date in mind?

[10:00pm] Brady: And does this vote need to be held at a physical location?

[10:01pm] OrionSteele: I certainly hope not

[10:01pm] TeamColtra: Well my problem is the constitutional issue

[10:01pm] Brady: Are you offering to host PirateCon 2013, Orion?

[10:01pm] OrionSteele: I believe the vote should be online to give the most opportunity for participation

[10:01pm] Brady: I think the feasibility of it should have some weight as to the final decision.

[10:01pm] Sacha: Hmm, we should like add an amendment to clarify that problem TeamColtra or perhaps change the wording and make the specifics a by
law

[10:01pm] TeamColtra: For all Officer positions, once every year at the Annual Meeting set forth in Art. VI §2.

[10:01pm] OrionSteele: and I believe the date should be in spring or fall for the same reason

[10:02pm] TeamColtra: Section 2: Building State Parties

[10:02pm] TeamColtra: The Party shall hold such meetings and/or social gatherings as may be needed to build the membership of the party at a state
and local level.

[10:02pm] TeamColtra: The Party shall use all means at its disposal to provide support to such groups as shall arise at a state level, as well as locally,
nationally and internationally to support this goal of facilitating the creation of State Parties in all 50 States and every US Territory.

[10:02pm] Brady: Hmm

[10:02pm] Brady: So we agree there needs to be an annual meeting, yes?

[10:02pm] Brady: Does anyone disagree?

[10:02pm] Deamon: We may have to amend thats ection

[10:02pm] OrionSteele: agree

[10:02pm] TeamColtra: Well it's in the constitution we all passed to have one.

[10:02pm] Brady: So irregardless of the date

[10:03pm] Brady: How about simultaneous conventions for each state, linked Via the internets, once per year

[10:03pm] Bosun: How big a place do we need?

[10:03pm] Brady: And have one big convention every four years

[10:03pm] OrionSteele: September 19th is Intl Talk Like a PIrate Day...that would work for me

[10:03pm] Brady: Hmm

[10:03pm] Bosun: How long?

[10:03pm] Brady: I think it should be around the time a normal political convention would be held.

[10:04pm] Deamon: August September usually

[10:04pm] Brady: Such that it can easily be turned into the Pirate National Convention

[10:04pm] TeamColtra: 2 Months before november isn't a bad time

[10:04pm] Deamon: Give a few months on the run-up to the General

[10:04pm] TeamColtra: IMHO

[10:05pm] Sacha: September makes sense

[10:05pm] Brady: TeamColtra - Just want to make sure it's within the legal time frame of a national convention.

[10:05pm] Bosun: I know some people with a fairly large hall in Milwaukee that I used for a fundraiser.

[10:05pm] Brady: Lemme find the range of dates.

[10:05pm] Sacha: and people seem to be agreeing on that point, I like sep. 19th for the talk like a pirate day which is amusing

[10:05pm] Bosun: I might be able to get it. It is at a brewery, I know the owners.

[10:05pm] OrionSteele: The fact that its on Talk Like a PIrate Day might make it easier to get MSM coverage

[10:06pm] Brady: One reason for the late conventions has to do with campaign finance laws, which allow the candidates to spend an unlimited amount of
money before the convention, but forbid fundraising after the election, in order for the parties to receive federal campaign funds.

[10:06pm] OrionSteele is now known as BRBOrion.

[10:07pm] Brady: I'm not finding the range of dates, but it doesn't appear that there is anything wrong with September.

[10:07pm] Brady: However, the current 'incumbent' party tends to go last.

[10:07pm] Brady: Not like we give a rat.

[10:09pm] TeamColtra: Okay so

[10:09pm] Brady: One problem would be some states require conventions to be held by the end of July.

[10:09pm] TeamColtra: do we need to make an amendment?

[10:09pm] kusanagi: Those would be for state parties, Brady

[10:10pm] Brady: To appear on the Washington ballot as a presidential candidate

[10:10pm] Brady: http://www.sos.wa.gov/_assets/elections/Appearing-on-the-Presidential-ballot.pdf

[10:10pm] Brady: I think this is why Romney is not eligible to appear on the WA ballot

[10:11pm] BRBOrion is now known as OrionSteele.

[10:11pm] Brady: TeamColtra - Do you think we need to choose a date first?

[10:11pm] Brady: Or at least a date range?

[10:11pm] TeamColtra: That's what the amendment needs to be

[10:12pm] Brady: I think a date range would be best.

[10:12pm] TeamColtra: because we need to add subpoint 3 under Section 2

[10:12pm] Brady: Like, "At least two months before the November 4th elections"

[10:13pm] TeamColtra: Well not elections

[10:13pm] Brady: Or "during the time period when political conventions are typically held leading up to a national election'

[10:13pm] TeamColtra: like next year there wont be "november 4th elections"

[10:13pm] Brady: Ah, sorry.

[10:13pm] Deamon: Maybe a certain day of the week on a certain week like regular elections

[10:13pm] TeamColtra: in 2 years there will be, for representatives and stuff.

[10:13pm] Brady: My suggestion was that we should just use that same date range so people have regularity.

[10:13pm] Deamon: First Monday of the Second week or something

[10:13pm] Brady: Maybe that's silly though

[10:14pm] TeamColtra: I honestly don't know

[10:14pm] Deamon: just a suggestion

[10:14pm] Brady: So for now, can we avoid setting a specific date?

[10:14pm] TeamColtra: We can set a date in a bylaw

[10:14pm] TeamColtra: and set a timeframe in the constitution

[10:15pm] Brady: Hell, then let's just go with Sept. 19th for now. We can always change it

[10:15pm] TeamColtra: Well we still /have/ to do an amendment

[10:15pm] Sacha: I would agree with making it a by law

[10:15pm] Brady: I'm fine with using Sept. 19th

[10:15pm] Brady: Though that's not much time to prepare.

[10:15pm] Brady: =3

[10:15pm] Sacha: I think that we need an amendment to change the language in the consitution as it points to an unrelated section

[10:16pm] Sacha: We can always choose to not have it this year

[10:16pm] Sacha: as we are still getting everything together

[10:16pm] Sacha: or just have our elections on that day

[10:16pm] TeamColtra: Wherever we do the amendment, something needs amending

[10:16pm] Brady: Hmm

[10:16pm] Brady: Don't we need to have official elections anyway?

[10:16pm] TeamColtra: Sacha, can you identify for the record?

[10:17pm] Sacha: Yes, apologies for being late

[10:17pm] Sacha: Amanda Johnson, Michigan

[10:18pm] TeamColtra: Does someone want to put forth an Amendment?

[10:18pm] Brady: So specifically we are amending Art. VI §2.?

[10:18pm] TeamColtra: I would suggest it

[10:19pm] TeamColtra: I would add to create section 2 subpoint 3

[10:19pm] Brady: That sounds about right

[10:20pm] Brady: Temp pad for editing: https://piratenpad.de/OAHv5HiVqD

[10:20pm] TeamColtra: If I was making a motion it would be "Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly meeting shall
be held no later than 2 months before November the 4"

[10:21pm] OrionSteele: a yearly meeting shall be held online?

[10:21pm] Brady: Eh

[10:22pm] Rush: It always used to be

[10:22pm] TeamColtra: If we hold it online or in person, it doesn't matter we are just creating the legal precident to hold an election

[10:22pm] Zacqary left the chat room. (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347])

[10:22pm] Brady: I would say more like a onvention which is streamed, and individuals can participate electronically

[10:22pm] TeamColtra: We can define it better in a bylaw

[10:22pm] OrionSteele: ok

[10:23pm] kusanagi: TeamColtra: Zac had to leave, I'm back as NY rep

[10:23pm] OrionSteele: then i second

[10:23pm] TeamColtra: Yes, I was just going to announce that

[10:23pm] TeamColtra: You can't actually second me

[10:23pm] TeamColtra: I can't make motions

[10:23pm] kusanagi: lol

[10:23pm] OrionSteele: o theni make the motion toAmend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly meeting shall be held no
later than 2 months before November the 4"

[10:23pm] kusanagi: i second

[10:24pm] Bosun: September 19th is 1 month 16 days prior to november 4th

[10:24pm] Deamon: Oops

[10:24pm] TeamColtra: Okay the debate is on the motion presented by OrionSteele

[10:24pm] TeamColtra: Does anyone have any disagreement with his motion?

[10:24pm] CalebLangeslag: Well, how is '2 months before' determined?

[10:24pm] TeamColtra: CalebLangeslag we will clearify it by bylaw

[10:25pm] Bosun: That would be September 4th

[10:25pm] CalebLangeslag: or perhaps I'm just being too nitpicky, even though it may seem obvious

[10:25pm] TeamColtra: Yeah... that's true, but I don't think we can go much later. Even though Talk Like A Pirate Day would be good

[10:26pm] OrionSteele: its probably just a hair too late for a national convention

[10:26pm] TeamColtra: CalebLangeslag your not being nitpicky -- but what if we are actually renting a convention hall or something but they don't have
the place open on tuesday, but they do on wednesday... then we wouldh ave to make an amendment to the constitution to change the date

[10:26pm] TeamColtra: if we outline a general date... and then define it in a bylaw

[10:26pm] Bosun: Should not September 4th be the day set by congress for the presidential election?

[10:26pm] TeamColtra: we can quickly change the date if needed

[10:27pm] Deamon: what do you mean Bosun

[10:27pm] Brady: Section 3: Annual Election Convention

[10:27pm] Brady: A yearly meeting shall be held no later than 2 months before November the 4th as defined in XXX bylaw

[10:28pm] TeamColtra: I also don't think defining the bylaw is a good idea, and it's also impossible since we currently have no system for bylaws

[10:28pm] TeamColtra:

[10:28pm] TeamColtra: The bylaw itself will affect it, it's not actually required to state that there is a bylaw on it

[10:28pm] Bosun: peg the date to the election date set by congress … the language is more general

[10:29pm] Brady: A yearly meeting shall be held no later than 2 months before November the 4th as defined in the bylaws*

[10:29pm] TeamColtra: There is no one date I believe... because the RNC and DNC conventions are on different days

[10:29pm] TeamColtra: Brady that would work

[10:29pm] TeamColtra: I would accept that as a friendly amendment

[10:29pm] TeamColtra: since that was already implied

[10:29pm] TeamColtra: as long as OrionSteele accepts it, since it's his motion

[10:30pm] Brady: So help me craft this proposed amendment in the pad

[10:30pm] OrionSteele: accept

[10:30pm] kusanagi: relink that, brady?

[10:30pm] Sacha: I would personally rather go with less specific language

[10:30pm] Sacha: for the constitution and then more specific for the by laws

[10:30pm] CalebLangeslag: https://piratenpad.de/OAHv5HiVqD

[10:31pm] Sacha: as they are easier to amend and that would make elections more flexible to our needs

[10:31pm] Brady: https://piratenpad.de/OAHv5HiVqD

[10:31pm] Brady: Should we just say "No later than September 4th"?

[10:31pm] Rush: Guys, I need to leave. I have a thing to go to early tomorrow morning and then there's the other stuff. I'll read the log tomorrow.

[10:31pm] Brady: Sacha has a good point.

[10:31pm] Rush left the chat room. (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)

[10:32pm] Brady: "A yearly meeting shall be held before November 4th as defined in the bylaws."

[10:32pm] Brady: That might be TOO vague though

[10:32pm] OrionSteele: accept

[10:32pm] TeamColtra: lol I think thats a bit too vague

[10:32pm] Brady: How about a 'yearly convention'

[10:32pm] jarod left the chat room. (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

[10:32pm] Brady: Convention implies something more formal.

[10:32pm] OrionSteele: I feel like it doesn't matter so long as we provide space for us to hammer out the details later

[10:33pm] Brady: It's probably a good idea to at least explain why this meeting is neeed

[10:34pm] OrionSteele: "A yearly meeting will be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified through the bylaws"

[10:34pm] TeamColtra: That would need to be an amendment to the current motion

[10:34pm] Brady: Check the pad now?

[10:34pm] OrionSteele: Before I offer it as formal amendment

[10:34pm] OrionSteele: Id like to see what people think of that wording

[10:35pm] kusanagi: I think that's perfect

[10:35pm] Deamon: Works for me

[10:35pm] TeamColtra: Nope

[10:35pm] Sacha: I think the wording is too complicated

[10:35pm] TeamColtra: This is a little silly but I have to:

[10:35pm] TeamColtra: Your pad says that you are creating section 3

[10:35pm] TeamColtra: it has to be in section 2

[10:35pm] TeamColtra: as a subpoint

[10:36pm] Deamon: silly, but right

[10:36pm] OrionSteele: Then I cancel my previous motion and instead motion to Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A
yearly meeting shall be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws."

[10:36pm] TeamColtra: You can't cancel out a motion either

[10:36pm] OrionSteele: o

[10:36pm] OrionSteele:

[10:36pm] TeamColtra: Sorry...

[10:36pm] Sacha: What about: A yearly election will be held at a date specified through the bylaws

[10:36pm] TeamColtra: Because it was seconded so it's no longer "your" motion

[10:36pm] TeamColtra: it's the floors motion

[10:36pm] Sacha: My friend is here with me and I think the previous wording was too complex for someone not in on the conversation to understand

[10:37pm] Bosun: we could vote down the floor motion and redo.

[10:37pm] Sacha: correction: it's ambiguous not so much complicated

[10:37pm] TeamColtra: Bosun it's easier to just make it an amendment to the motion

[10:37pm] OrionSteele: This wording: A yearly meeting shall be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws

[10:37pm] Sacha: I think that is really ambiguous and confusing wording

[10:37pm] Deamon: That pretty much defines a convention

[10:38pm] sadyya joined the chat room.

[10:38pm] Sacha: I think there are unnecessary words which we could adjust to be more clear

[10:38pm] TeamColtra: btw, guys, for the most part I am just following roberts rules (except when roberts rules doesn't work for IRC) -- so if you want to know why I am doing what I am doing or have questions, please feel free to check out a copy of Roberts Rules, since it's just the basics you can even get
the public domain version

[10:38pm] TeamColtra: just a point of order

[10:38pm] Sacha: I think "A yearly meeting shall be held at a date specified in the bylaws" says everything we need to know

[10:39pm] OrionSteele: that doesnt say what its for

[10:39pm] Deamon: It needs the purpose of elections

[10:39pm] OrionSteele: amend the floor's motion to instead read, " Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly meeting shall be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws."

[10:39pm] Bosun: an anual convention

[10:39pm] OrionSteele: motion to amend...or whatever

[10:39pm] TeamColtra: is there a second?

[10:39pm] TeamColtra: close enough

[10:40pm] Bosun: second

[10:40pm] TeamColtra: Okay so to clearify, we are no longer debating the merits of the amendment... but rather we are now debating if we should use
this amendment vs the original wording.

[10:41pm] TeamColtra: Does any member object to this wording vs the origional?

[10:41pm] Sacha: Sorry, I meant "yearly elections" not meeting, my bad.

[10:41pm] TeamColtra: The origional was Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly meeting shall be held no later than 2
months before November the 4"

[10:41pm] Brady: Section 2 is Creating State Parties

[10:41pm] TeamColtra: and the new amendment to the motion is on the floor: Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A
yearly meeting shall be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws.

[10:42pm] Bosun: I favor the amended text.

[10:42pm] OrionSteele: as do I

[10:42pm] TeamColtra: I will give a few seconds for anyone to say they object, otherwise we will vote on it

[10:42pm] Brady: I object to the term 'meeting' and would like to propose the term 'convention'.

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: I can accept that as a friendly amendment

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: if OrionSteele can

[10:43pm] OrionSteele: accept

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: Any other objections?

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: If you do just type object

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: and then type your reasoning

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: otherwise I am moving on

[10:44pm] TeamColtra: Okay we are voting on: Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly convention shall be held for
the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws. to amend the motion on the floor Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with
the text: A yearly meeting shall be held no later than 2 months before November the 4"

[10:44pm] OrionSteele: aye

[10:44pm] TeamColtra: So by voting aye you are just approving the amendment not the motion in general

[10:44pm] Brady: Aye

[10:44pm] Bosun: aye

[10:44pm] Deamon: aye

[10:45pm] kusanagi: aye

[10:45pm] Brady: Point of Reference - Current minimum for a quorum?

[10:45pm] TeamColtra: I observe 1/2 to be quorum

[10:46pm] TeamColtra: sorry 1/2 of total members

[10:46pm] TeamColtra: which I believe is currently 8

[10:46pm] TeamColtra: so 4

[10:46pm] kusanagi: we're at that right now, as rush had to leave.

[10:46pm] TeamColtra: Yeah

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: So no one else leave

[10:47pm] TeamColtra:

[10:47pm] kusanagi: OrionSteele: ping

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: He voted

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: I am calling the vote btw

[10:47pm] kusanagi: oh ok

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: kusanagi tally?

[10:47pm] kusanagi: 4 for, at large for

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: Thank you

[10:47pm] kusanagi: amendment approved

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: now does anyone want to talk about the motion in general?

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: or do we just want to vote?

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: we only need to discuss if someone has an objection

[10:48pm] TeamColtra: Okay seeing no objection

[10:48pm] Brady: No objections from Washington.

[10:48pm] TeamColtra: We are voting on Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly convention shall be held for the
purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws

[10:49pm] TeamColtra: agree say aye, disagree say nay

[10:49pm] Bosun: aye

[10:49pm] Deamon: aye

[10:49pm] Brady: Aye - Washington

[10:49pm] OrionSteele: aye

[10:49pm] themgt: aye

[10:50pm] TeamColtra: kusanagi

[10:50pm] kusanagi: aye

[10:50pm] TeamColtra: called

[10:50pm] kusanagi: 4 for at large for

[10:51pm] TeamColtra: Okay

[10:53pm] TeamColtra: The amendment passes and goes into effect

[10:53pm] TeamColtra: So CalebLangeslag are you around?

[10:53pm] TeamColtra: actually sorry

[10:53pm] TeamColtra: So what is our plan now for elections?

[10:54pm] CalebLangeslag: Well, yes, I am

[10:54pm] TeamColtra: CalebLangeslag your issue will be addressed next

[10:55pm] Bosun: should we establish an ad hoc convention comitee?

[10:55pm] CalebLangeslag: For elections, there hasn't really been much discussion within the IT committee, since there barely is one

[10:55pm] Brady: Washington motion that an ad goc Convention Committee shall be discussed at the next meeting.

[10:56pm] TeamColtra: seconds?

[10:56pm] kusanagi: yes

[10:56pm] kusanagi: New York seconds

[10:56pm] OrionSteele: second
[10:57pm] TeamColtra: Conversation?

[10:57pm] TeamColtra:

[10:58pm] kusanagi: there really isn't one.

[10:58pm] kusanagi: lol

[10:58pm] kusanagi: yes, let's talk about that at next meeting?

[10:58pm] TeamColtra: Do we have anyone who wants to head it? I would suggest not having someone who intends to run

[10:58pm] Sacha: I would be willing but i'm not sure if I have the credentials

[10:59pm] Bosun: I will. I run for nothing.

[11:00pm] Brady: Washington wanted to host a convention next year, but we'd have to make some serious changes to do that.

[11:00pm] Brady: Seriously, we need someone who has run a con before.

[11:00pm] Brady: It's a huge task.

[11:00pm] TeamColtra: Brady can we stick to our current election?

[11:00pm] kusanagi: Bosun has the experience

[11:00pm] Brady: Apologies.

[11:01pm] OrionSteele: second Bosun

[11:01pm] OrionSteele: (is that how it works?)

[11:01pm] Sacha: If Bosun wants to I support that

[11:01pm] Sacha: is it irl

[11:01pm] CalebLangeslag: Isn't this just discussion of bringing it up at the next meeting, rather than already assigning roles? xP

[11:02pm] OrionSteele: lol yes

[11:02pm] kusanagi: yes, CalebL[laptop]

[11:02pm] kusanagi: erm

[11:02pm] kusanagi: CalebLangeslag:

[11:02pm] Brady: In that case, can we vote on the motion?

[11:02pm] kusanagi:

[11:02pm] Brady: To have it added to the schedule for next week?

[11:02pm] kusanagi: We should

[11:02pm] Bosun: Give it a week and I'll discuss it with our Wisconsin Membership in the interm.

[11:03pm] TeamColtra: So we don't want to vote on this?

[11:03pm] TeamColtra: (to have an election committee)

[11:03pm] TeamColtra: or do we?

[11:03pm] Bosun: Can we just request the chair to add it to next weeks agenda?

[11:03pm] kusanagi: we should vote on that next week

[11:04pm] Bosun: table the motion

[11:04pm] TeamColtra: Okay

[11:04pm] TeamColtra: I will just do that

[11:04pm] Brady: I second the motion(?) to table the current motion.

[11:04pm] TeamColtra: we don't need to vote

[11:04pm] TeamColtra: Executive order

[11:05pm] TeamColtra: Anything else that needs to be discussed then? Or do we want to adjourn?

[11:05pm] Brady: Is the item regarding PNC involvement in state formation something that needs to be covered?

[11:05pm] kusanagi: there's still the item CalebLangeslag brought up

[11:05pm] CalebLangeslag: It's not mandatory

[11:06pm] kusanagi: and CullenMatthews has something on AOB as well.

[11:06pm] Bosun: move to adjourn

[11:06pm] Bosun: I withdraw my motion

[11:06pm] TeamColtra: CullenMatthews, would you like to present?

[11:07pm] CullenMatthews: yes

[11:08pm] TeamColtra: I need to step away (with no respect to CullenMatthews ) I should be back in a minute or two... if things wind down and I am not
here kusanagi can close the meeting in my stead.

[11:08pm] TeamColtra: err no disrespect*

[11:08pm] kusanagi: sure, no problem.

[11:09pm] • kusanagi puts on all three hats

[11:09pm] CullenMatthews: i mentioned in the forums about an international project, i'd figured we needed to get into the media more by making some
sort of political campaign video not just showing US Pirates but all the pirate parties to show the world that we are not alone in our beliefs. again this was
just a thought.

[11:09pm] Deamon: I can help you on that

[11:09pm] kusanagi: there has been some media interest in USPP

[11:10pm] kusanagi: all of it seems to be international media

[11:10pm] kusanagi: Honestly, I don't see why we would need to make an international video; only FLPP is in PPI right now

[11:10pm] kusanagi: We need domestic coverage.

[11:11pm] Sacha: We should keep AGPPP in mind as well

[11:11pm] sadyya: maybe an individual state by state youtube video project?

[11:11pm] sadyya: im just say a suggestion

[11:11pm] OrionSteele: we are doing videos

[11:11pm] sadyya: one that will get people to what we do

[11:11pm] Sacha: if we are working with international, I would also point out that international coverage could be a good way to get domestic press and we shouldn't reject any press

[11:12pm] kusanagi: We're not really working with international.

[11:12pm] kusanagi: i like cullen's idea

[11:12pm] kusanagi: but we could do it as a sort of "meet a pirate" campaign

[11:12pm] kusanagi: post it on our various social media things

[11:12pm] sadyya: yea

[11:13pm] Deamon: Please don't make it like the I'm a Morman campaign though

[11:13pm] kusanagi: and i'm tossing around the idea of #askapirate on twitter

[11:13pm] Deamon: those get creepy

[11:13pm] kusanagi: Deamon: lololol

[11:13pm] sadyya: hahahahaha

[11:13pm] sadyya: ... and I'm a pirate...

[11:13pm] CullenMatthews: lol

[11:13pm] Deamon: If someone can send me the footage I can chop it up and make a YouTube page

[11:13pm] Deamon: It's something I'm very familiar with

[11:14pm] kusanagi: and really, the CAPP meetings are a great launching point for such a project.

[11:14pm] Bosun: CullenMatthews are you in or near Chicago? Can sadyya and I meet with you?

[11:14pm] kusanagi: and Pirate Hour

[11:14pm] CullenMatthews: I will be commuting to the city starting Septemeber 5 for clases at DePaul university

[11:15pm] Sacha: Deamon would be great for this

[11:15pm] Sacha: and I know CAPP may be a bit busy with their own stuff

[11:15pm] Bosun: ooh brown line stop. I'll buy deep dish pizza.

[11:15pm] Sacha: He has a youtube channel he's been doing for years, so I would personally put him on the project if I was making decisions

[11:16pm] ana left the chat room. (Quit: Web client closed)

[11:16pm] kusanagi: Ok, that's awesome.

[11:17pm] itspara joined the chat room.

[11:17pm] kusanagi: this is something that really needs to be fleshed out more than just this before people are put on the project.

[11:17pm] sadyya: oooo Bosun yes ill come

[11:18pm] OrionSteele: yes we would be interested in helping with this, or having it be included as part of the pirate media network

[11:18pm] OrionSteele: lets work out a more detailed plan of what we want to do

[11:18pm] kusanagi: that would work really well

[11:18pm] Deamon: Definately, Cullen, hit me up at some point if you need help with setup

[11:19pm] kusanagi: yay

[11:19pm] kusanagi: ok, so do you all what to flesh this out now?

[11:21pm] kusanagi: or do you guys want to bring this to sab or next week?

[11:21pm] Brady: Rather than #askapirate how about #youareapirate?

[11:21pm] Deamon: We'll work out the details and present later

[11:21pm] OrionSteele: i say spend the week thinking of the ideas and next week have a proposal

[11:22pm] kusanagi: Brady: that was just the twitter hashtag

[11:22pm] Brady: kusanagi - Let's talk about it after adjournment.

[11:22pm] sadyya: i like the twitter hash tag

[11:22pm] kusanagi: sure

[11:23pm] Bosun: I like #youareapirate.

[11:23pm] Brady: So this is also being pushed to the next meeting?

[11:23pm] Brady: Should we motion to adjourn?

[11:23pm] kusanagi: I'm asking you guys.

[11:23pm] kusanagi: I'm acting chair

[11:24pm] Bosun: motion to adjourn

[11:24pm] sadyya: yup

[11:24pm] Brady: I second Bosun's motion to adjourn.

[11:24pm] kusanagi: ok

[11:25pm] kusanagi: one thing

[11:25pm] kusanagi: I have access to USPirates on twitter

[11:26pm] kusanagi: So if you want me to tweet meetings, facebook pages, twitters, etc

[11:26pm] kusanagi: let me know, by IRC or email, kusanagi.chroma@gmail

[11:26pm] sadyya: ok

[11:27pm] kusanagi: so, vote to adjourn?

[11:27pm] Deamon: aye

[11:27pm] Brady: Aye

[11:27pm] CullenMatthews: aye

[11:28pm] Bosun: aye

[11:28pm] kusanagi: and aye from me as well

[11:28pm] kusanagi: good night guys, meeting is next wednesday

PNC 8/15/12

2012-08-18T00:38:06Z

Kusanagi: /* IT Committee */

{{PNC MINUTES NAV}}
:''Agenda PNC MEETING'''
::'''--- 08/15/2012 21:00h EDT ---'''
::IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
::Room: #pnc
::Wiki: [http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12 http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/15/12]

==Minutes==
'''Record of the meeting'''

=== 1 - ATTENDEES ===
==== 1.1 - Members of the PNC ====
*participating:
**Orion Steele /Jake Ziering, CA
**Joseph T. Klein/Megan Cochran, WI
**Bradley Hall, FL
**Lindsay-Anne Brunner/Zacqary Green, NY
**Brady O'bannon Dibble, WA

*excused
**Oregon
**Massachutsetts
**Washington

*unexcused
**Georgia

*probation
**Oklahoma, 5th meeting missed

==== 1.2 - At Large Members of the PNC ====
*Paul Meserve, NC
*James Eastman, Jr./Amanda Johnson, MI
*Cullen Matthews, IL
*Caleb Langslag, MI

=== 2 - PROCEEDINGS ===
*Meeting opened at: 09:11pm EDT by Travis McCrea
*Meeting closed at: 11:28pm EDT by Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Meeting chaired by Travis McCrea and Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Secretary for this meeting is Lindsay-Anne Brunner
*Quorum is established: Members 5 out of 8 present
*Logging Enabled: Yes

=== 3 - Review of previous minutes ===
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/8/12

=== 4 - REPORTS ===
====4.1 - Short report of the board members ====
=====Massachusetts=====
**excused

=====Washington=====
*Washington has had some problems with the party stagnating and will be stepping back to help boost their ranks.

=====Oregon=====
**excused

=====Georgia====
**Absent

=====Florida=====
*A few new members have contracted them about joining and working with them. Brad is beginning work on No Safe Harbor 2.

=====New York=====
*NYPP approved the PNC constitution last week, and starting work on asynchronymous meetings and liquid feedback. Pirate Choir video still in progress

=====California=====
*Calling vote on ratifying the PNC constitution, and an answer is expected in a few days, with ratification the likely result.
*Major work has begun on the Pirate Rado project: and internet radio station broadcasting music that is collected from artists who contribute along with Pirate information, speeches, podcasts and more. in the process of compiling a list of those interested, please email calpirateparty@gmail. There will be another episode of the Pirate Hour tomorrow night, featuring Travis McCrea. Please email calpirateparty@gmail if you are interested in participating.
*Finally, finalizing the internship proposals we plan to send to schools in California. We have proposals for a bunch of different fields, from radio and media to comm, political science, etc. Those are going to be up on the website at calpirateparty.org within the week

=====Wisconsin=====
*Nine people have signed up on their site, including a university professor and a well-known blogger. Treasurer is moving to Madison for university, and will try to set up a student organization

==== 4.2 - Short Report From Committees ====
=====IT Committee=====
*If anything needs to be updated, please contact Caleb from MN

*Wiki has been updated, Spambots and restrictions removed, antispam inplememented, so all can contribute to the wiki. Hopefully this will begin the crowdsourcing of resources on the wiki. It is being backed up regularly, and Caleb is person-responsible for IT.

=== 5 - Agenda Items ===
Elections
Proposed amendment in the works to establish a date for a national convention
Vote held to approve the wording of the amendment
4 for, at-large for
vote held to amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly convention shall be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws

Washington motion that an ad hoc Convention Committee shall be discussed at the next meeting.

=== - AOB - ===
would a roberts rules bot make meeting go more smoothly? - passstab, PA (skipped)
Pirate Introduction video - Cullen, IL

*Next meeting: Wednesday, August 22nd at 9PM EDT
*Meeting closed: 11:28pm

==Logs==
[9:12pm] teamcoltra: I will chair this meeting, and kusanagi will be secretary.

[9:12pm] teamcoltra: Let's do roll call

[9:13pm] OrionSteele: Orion Steele / Jake Ziering - California

[9:13pm] Bosun: Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin

[9:13pm] Rush: Bradley Hall, Florida

[9:13pm] CalebLangeslag: Caleb Langeslag, Minnesota

[9:13pm] kusanagi: Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY

[9:13pm] themgt: Paul Meserve, North Carolina

[9:13pm] sadyya: Megan Cochran Wisconsin

[9:13pm] Deamon: James Eastman Jr., Michigan

[9:13pm] CullenMatthews: Cullen Matthews, Illinois

[9:13pm] ana left the chat room. (Quit: Web client closed)

[9:14pm] ana joined the chat room.

[9:14pm] teamcoltra: Everyone please review last weeks meeting minutes http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_8/8/12

[9:15pm] sadyya left the chat room. (Quit: sadyya)

[9:15pm] jarod_ joined the chat room.

[9:15pm] teamcoltra: I will give us about 3 minutes... if anyone needs more time feel free to ask

[9:15pm] Sacha joined the chat room.

[9:17pm] kusanagi: Brady, you're not the WA rep?

[9:17pm] Brady: I was not intending to be.

[9:18pm] kusanagi: there isn't a rep, can you fill in:?

[9:18pm] Brady: Not many other options, as we aren't officially excused.

[9:19pm] Brady: I will fill in to the best of my ability for my state, though I will step down if and when our official rep arrives.

[9:19pm] teamcoltra: Brady - Jeffery was under the interpretation he was the only Washington member left

[9:19pm] kusanagi: jeff did say he couldn't make it

[9:19pm] teamcoltra: He stated to me that he was taking a leave of absence from the PNC entirely until the WAPP was more than just him

[9:19pm] Brady: Pretty much everyone is under a huge workload, has health issues, or both.

[9:20pm] teamcoltra: Okay everyone should have now read last weeks minutes

[9:20pm] teamcoltra: let's do updates from states

[9:21pm] teamcoltra: We will start tonight with Washington, but don't feel obligated to present much Brady

[9:21pm] teamcoltra: I know your on the spot now

[9:21pm] Brady: Washington does have issues.

[9:21pm] Brady: Which should be quite obvious.

[9:21pm] Brady: The party was started by 5 core members, who all already had full lives.

[9:22pm] Brady: However, we focused too much on the structure and not enough on recruitment.

[9:22pm] kusi left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)

[9:22pm] Brady: I almost hate to say it, but K`Tetch was fairly on the mark for what WA should have done.

[9:22pm] Brady: We failed to recruit and inject new blood into the group.

[9:22pm] Brady: As a result, we have stagnated.

[9:23pm] Brady: So for the time being, we will be working on rebuilding our foundation and expanding our active member count.

[9:24pm] Brady: We have attempted to connect with the Cascadia movement, but they are not interested.

[9:24pm] Brady: And, from what I understand, they are actually somewhat of a separatist movement which does not necessarily jive with Pirate ideals.

[9:24pm] kusanagi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

[9:25pm] Brady: Please excuse our relative lack of input for the next few months.

[9:25pm] Brady: That is all.

[9:25pm] teamcoltra: Thanks for that insightful report Brady! :)

[9:25pm] teamcoltra: Rush / Florida?

[9:25pm] kusanagi (~kusanagi@vhmo-570-03-66-90.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) has joined #pnc

[9:25pm] Rush: Oh

[9:26pm] kusanagi: sorry about that, plug was pulled

[9:26pm] Rush: We haven't really done much. A few new possible members just contacted us Monday, we're planning on working with them and hopefully
start doing awesome things soon.

[9:27pm] Rush: I will start actually working on NSH2 soon as well. That's gonna rock.

[9:27pm] Rush: Tha'ts all

[9:27pm] teamcoltra: Both very awesome.

[9:28pm] teamcoltra: kusanagi what's going on with NY?

[9:28pm] kusanagi: Well, last week we approved the PNC constitution

[9:28pm] kusanagi: and we're starting work on asynched meetings and liquid feedback.

[9:29pm] kusanagi: that's pretty much all i can think of right now.

[9:30pm] kusanagi: Zacqary: are you here to add more?

[9:30pm] themgt: what's NSH2?

[9:30pm] Rush: No Safe Harbor 2

[9:31pm] Rush: www.nosafeharbor.com

[9:31pm] themgt: gotcha

[9:31pm] teamcolt_ joined the chat room.

[9:31pm] teamcolt_: Sorry my internet disco'd It looks like NY has answered (or are you still going?)

[9:32pm] kusanagi: I did answer, and just finished.

[9:32pm] teamcolt_: Sweet, OrionSteele / California

[9:32pm] teamcoltra left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)

[9:32pm] OrionSteele: are we being called on?

[9:32pm] kusanagi: yes

[9:33pm] kusanagi: state update please

[9:33pm] teamcolt_: Yes, your update

[9:33pm] OrionSteele: ok so there's a fair amount going on over here, I'll try to sum it up\

[9:33pm] OrionSteele: first we're calling votes on PNC ratification within the CPP, so we should have an answer (ratification most likely) within a few days

[9:34pm] OrionSteele: second, we're starting major work on our Pirate Radio project, which is to have an Internet radio station broadcasting music which
we collect from contributing artists along with pirate information, cool speeches, podcasts, etc

[9:35pm] OrionSteele: along those lines we're compiling an email list of interested artists and/or organizers, if you want to take part in that send an email to calpirateparty@gmail

[9:36pm] Brady: Washington knows someone who may be interested. He has the archives of all the old Pirate Radio episodes.

[9:36pm] OrionSteele: ]We're also doing another episode of the Pirate Hour tomorrow, this time with Travis McCrea..it should be a really good opportunity
to broadcast ourselves and get our message out. I understand there is some interest from other state parties in joining the hangout - we do have available space, so I'm sure whoever wants to come we can work out a spot for. The important thing would be sending an email to calpirateparty@gmail between now an

[9:36pm] OrionSteele: expressing your interest.

[9:37pm] OrionSteele: Id love to get in touch about that Brady

[9:37pm] Bosun: Someone from Wiscon will show up … and stay this time.

[9:37pm] OrionSteele: do you have an email address?

[9:38pm] OrionSteele: Last thing I want to mention is that we're finalizing the internship proposals we plan to send to schools in California. We have
proposals for a bunch of different fields, from radio and media to comm, political science, etc. Those are going to be up on the website at calpirateparty.org within the week

[9:38pm] OrionSteele: And are ofc free for all to use in the (hopeful) acquisition of some free intern labor

[9:39pm] OrionSteele: That's pretty much it, especially for the Pirate Hour episode tomorrow I cannot stress enough how important it is for you to email
us beforehand. The google hangout system is far less than ideal, and having a good list of participants beforehand ios pretty key

[9:40pm] OrionSteele: Ok I'm done now

[9:40pm] teamcolt_: Thank you for your novel OrionSteele

[9:40pm] teamcolt_: :)

[9:40pm] OrionSteele: heehe

[9:40pm] Zacqary: (Sorry, was afk. Zacqary Adam Green, NY. Taking over as rep from kusanagi)

[9:41pm] teamcolt_ is now known as TeamColtra.

[9:41pm] TeamColtra was promoted to operator by ChanServ.

[9:41pm] Deamon was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:41pm] Rush was granted voice by TeamColtra.
[
9:41pm] Bosun was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:41pm] Zacqary was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:41pm] OrionSteele was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:42pm] Brady was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:42pm] jarod_ was granted voice by TeamColtra.

[9:42pm] TeamColtra: Do I have that right?

[9:42pm] kusanagi: no

[9:42pm] kusanagi: Deamon doesn't have voice

[9:43pm] kusanagi: MI is at large

[9:43pm] Deamon had voice removed by TeamColtra.

[9:44pm] Deamon: :(

[9:44pm] kusanagi: sorry

[9:44pm] Deamon: It's cool

[9:44pm] TeamColtra: Okay Wisconsin / Bosun

[9:45pm] Bosun: Not a whole lot here but I'll try ...

[9:46pm] Bosun: We have a whole whopping nine sighned up on our site including a well known blogger and a University Professor.

[9:46pm] jarod joined the chat room.

[9:47pm] kusanagi: awesome

[9:47pm] Brady: That's excellent

[9:47pm] Bosun: The hits on the social medi keep going up. Our treasuer is moving out to Madison (a freshman at UW)

[9:47pm] Brady: Don't make WAPP's mistake.

[9:47pm] jarod_ left the chat room. (Quit: Web client closed)

[9:48pm] Bosun: Francis will try to get a student or. set up at UW.

[9:49pm] Bosun: I should explain. …. it is a but of a family afair … Francis is my son and also on the City of Milwaukee youth council

[9:49pm] kusanagi: Oh!

[9:49pm] kusanagi: that's awesome

[9:49pm] Bosun: I ran for County Executive against Scott Walker in 2004, and twice have ben a delegate to the Wiscons state dem convention from the 4th
CD>

[9:50pm] TeamColtra left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)

[9:50pm] Bosun: And my spouse liked the idea of supporting the Pirate Party …

[9:50pm] kusanagi: awesome, another pirate family!

[9:50pm] Bosun: that is about all for today.

[9:51pm] kusanagi: Cool.

[9:51pm] kusanagi: Ok, since Travis dropped again.

[9:51pm] kusanagi: IT! What's going on?

[9:52pm] kusanagi: matuck-, CalebL[laptop]

[9:52pm] kusanagi: \

[9:52pm] TeamColtra was promoted to operator by ChanServ.

[9:52pm] TeamColtra joined the chat room.

[9:52pm] CalebLangeslag: Well, the wiki has been updated, antispam has been implemented, and the restrictions removed, as well as the spambots
removed

[9:52pm] CalebLangeslag: So everyone's free to register a wiki account and start contributing right away

[9:52pm] CalebLangeslag: And hopefully we can finally crowdsource our resources to the wiki

[9:53pm] CalebLangeslag: And don't worry, it won't self-implode this time or anything, as I'm helping administer it, as well as ensuring that there are
regular backups

[9:53pm] kusanagi: excellent

[9:54pm] TeamColtra: Anything else?

[9:54pm] CalebLangeslag: As of the wiki, I believe that is all.

[9:55pm] TeamColtra: So are you now handling the IT Committee?

[9:55pm] CalebLangeslag: Well, self-proclaimed generally, yes.

[9:55pm] CalebLangeslag: mortona2k (supposedly the head of IT) hasn't been around, even on IRC, for months

[9:55pm] CalebLangeslag: And Matuck is legitimately busy with life

[9:56pm] Brady: Washington says sorry.

[9:56pm] CalebLangeslag: So, I'm not sure if I can be self-appointed for the IT committee or anything. xP

[9:56pm] CalebLangeslag: For?

[9:56pm] CalebLangeslag: and either way, it's fine

[9:56pm] • TeamColtra taps your shoulder with a sword

[9:57pm] TeamColtra: I dub thee the guy responsible for IT for now

[9:57pm] Brady is now known as The_Crowd.

[9:57pm] The_Crowd: HUZZAH

[9:57pm] The_Crowd is now known as Brady.

[9:57pm] Bosun: Huzzah!

[9:57pm] • CalebLangeslag makes a brave, theatric scene.

[9:57pm] kusanagi: huzzah indeed

[9:58pm] TeamColtra: Okay moving on

[9:58pm] TeamColtra: Elections

[9:58pm] TeamColtra: I have a problem when reading the constitution regarding elections

[9:59pm] TeamColtra: it says that they must be held once a year on a date which is specified in another section, but in the section that it links to... doesn't
say anything about a yearly convention

[9:59pm] Zacqary: Motion to allow at-larges to speak about electiony stuff?

[10:00pm] Zacqary: After you're done, Travis.

[10:00pm] TeamColtra: At larges may now speak on this issue, if anyone has an objection feel free to raise it

[10:00pm] Brady: There is already a 'PirateCon'...can we still use this title?

[10:00pm] Deamon: Do we have a date in mind?

[10:00pm] Brady: And does this vote need to be held at a physical location?

[10:01pm] OrionSteele: I certainly hope not

[10:01pm] TeamColtra: Well my problem is the constitutional issue

[10:01pm] Brady: Are you offering to host PirateCon 2013, Orion?

[10:01pm] OrionSteele: I believe the vote should be online to give the most opportunity for participation

[10:01pm] Brady: I think the feasibility of it should have some weight as to the final decision.

[10:01pm] Sacha: Hmm, we should like add an amendment to clarify that problem TeamColtra or perhaps change the wording and make the specifics a by
law

[10:01pm] TeamColtra: For all Officer positions, once every year at the Annual Meeting set forth in Art. VI §2.

[10:01pm] OrionSteele: and I believe the date should be in spring or fall for the same reason

[10:02pm] TeamColtra: Section 2: Building State Parties

[10:02pm] TeamColtra: The Party shall hold such meetings and/or social gatherings as may be needed to build the membership of the party at a state
and local level.

[10:02pm] TeamColtra: The Party shall use all means at its disposal to provide support to such groups as shall arise at a state level, as well as locally,
nationally and internationally to support this goal of facilitating the creation of State Parties in all 50 States and every US Territory.

[10:02pm] Brady: Hmm

[10:02pm] Brady: So we agree there needs to be an annual meeting, yes?

[10:02pm] Brady: Does anyone disagree?

[10:02pm] Deamon: We may have to amend thats ection

[10:02pm] OrionSteele: agree

[10:02pm] TeamColtra: Well it's in the constitution we all passed to have one.

[10:02pm] Brady: So irregardless of the date

[10:03pm] Brady: How about simultaneous conventions for each state, linked Via the internets, once per year

[10:03pm] Bosun: How big a place do we need?

[10:03pm] Brady: And have one big convention every four years

[10:03pm] OrionSteele: September 19th is Intl Talk Like a PIrate Day...that would work for me

[10:03pm] Brady: Hmm

[10:03pm] Bosun: How long?

[10:03pm] Brady: I think it should be around the time a normal political convention would be held.

[10:04pm] Deamon: August September usually

[10:04pm] Brady: Such that it can easily be turned into the Pirate National Convention

[10:04pm] TeamColtra: 2 Months before november isn't a bad time

[10:04pm] Deamon: Give a few months on the run-up to the General

[10:04pm] TeamColtra: IMHO

[10:05pm] Sacha: September makes sense

[10:05pm] Brady: TeamColtra - Just want to make sure it's within the legal time frame of a national convention.

[10:05pm] Bosun: I know some people with a fairly large hall in Milwaukee that I used for a fundraiser.

[10:05pm] Brady: Lemme find the range of dates.

[10:05pm] Sacha: and people seem to be agreeing on that point, I like sep. 19th for the talk like a pirate day which is amusing

[10:05pm] Bosun: I might be able to get it. It is at a brewery, I know the owners.

[10:05pm] OrionSteele: The fact that its on Talk Like a PIrate Day might make it easier to get MSM coverage

[10:06pm] Brady: One reason for the late conventions has to do with campaign finance laws, which allow the candidates to spend an unlimited amount of
money before the convention, but forbid fundraising after the election, in order for the parties to receive federal campaign funds.

[10:06pm] OrionSteele is now known as BRBOrion.

[10:07pm] Brady: I'm not finding the range of dates, but it doesn't appear that there is anything wrong with September.

[10:07pm] Brady: However, the current 'incumbent' party tends to go last.

[10:07pm] Brady: Not like we give a rat.

[10:09pm] TeamColtra: Okay so

[10:09pm] Brady: One problem would be some states require conventions to be held by the end of July.

[10:09pm] TeamColtra: do we need to make an amendment?

[10:09pm] kusanagi: Those would be for state parties, Brady

[10:10pm] Brady: To appear on the Washington ballot as a presidential candidate

[10:10pm] Brady: http://www.sos.wa.gov/_assets/elections/Appearing-on-the-Presidential-ballot.pdf

[10:10pm] Brady: I think this is why Romney is not eligible to appear on the WA ballot

[10:11pm] BRBOrion is now known as OrionSteele.

[10:11pm] Brady: TeamColtra - Do you think we need to choose a date first?

[10:11pm] Brady: Or at least a date range?

[10:11pm] TeamColtra: That's what the amendment needs to be

[10:12pm] Brady: I think a date range would be best.

[10:12pm] TeamColtra: because we need to add subpoint 3 under Section 2

[10:12pm] Brady: Like, "At least two months before the November 4th elections"

[10:13pm] TeamColtra: Well not elections

[10:13pm] Brady: Or "during the time period when political conventions are typically held leading up to a national election'

[10:13pm] TeamColtra: like next year there wont be "november 4th elections"

[10:13pm] Brady: Ah, sorry.

[10:13pm] Deamon: Maybe a certain day of the week on a certain week like regular elections

[10:13pm] TeamColtra: in 2 years there will be, for representatives and stuff.

[10:13pm] Brady: My suggestion was that we should just use that same date range so people have regularity.

[10:13pm] Deamon: First Monday of the Second week or something

[10:13pm] Brady: Maybe that's silly though

[10:14pm] TeamColtra: I honestly don't know

[10:14pm] Deamon: just a suggestion

[10:14pm] Brady: So for now, can we avoid setting a specific date?

[10:14pm] TeamColtra: We can set a date in a bylaw

[10:14pm] TeamColtra: and set a timeframe in the constitution

[10:15pm] Brady: Hell, then let's just go with Sept. 19th for now. We can always change it

[10:15pm] TeamColtra: Well we still /have/ to do an amendment

[10:15pm] Sacha: I would agree with making it a by law

[10:15pm] Brady: I'm fine with using Sept. 19th

[10:15pm] Brady: Though that's not much time to prepare.

[10:15pm] Brady: =3

[10:15pm] Sacha: I think that we need an amendment to change the language in the consitution as it points to an unrelated section

[10:16pm] Sacha: We can always choose to not have it this year

[10:16pm] Sacha: as we are still getting everything together

[10:16pm] Sacha: or just have our elections on that day

[10:16pm] TeamColtra: Wherever we do the amendment, something needs amending

[10:16pm] Brady: Hmm

[10:16pm] Brady: Don't we need to have official elections anyway?

[10:16pm] TeamColtra: Sacha, can you identify for the record?

[10:17pm] Sacha: Yes, apologies for being late

[10:17pm] Sacha: Amanda Johnson, Michigan

[10:18pm] TeamColtra: Does someone want to put forth an Amendment?

[10:18pm] Brady: So specifically we are amending Art. VI §2.?

[10:18pm] TeamColtra: I would suggest it

[10:19pm] TeamColtra: I would add to create section 2 subpoint 3

[10:19pm] Brady: That sounds about right

[10:20pm] Brady: Temp pad for editing: https://piratenpad.de/OAHv5HiVqD

[10:20pm] TeamColtra: If I was making a motion it would be "Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly meeting shall
be held no later than 2 months before November the 4"

[10:21pm] OrionSteele: a yearly meeting shall be held online?

[10:21pm] Brady: Eh

[10:22pm] Rush: It always used to be

[10:22pm] TeamColtra: If we hold it online or in person, it doesn't matter we are just creating the legal precident to hold an election

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[10:22pm] Brady: I would say more like a onvention which is streamed, and individuals can participate electronically

[10:22pm] TeamColtra: We can define it better in a bylaw

[10:22pm] OrionSteele: ok

[10:23pm] kusanagi: TeamColtra: Zac had to leave, I'm back as NY rep

[10:23pm] OrionSteele: then i second

[10:23pm] TeamColtra: Yes, I was just going to announce that

[10:23pm] TeamColtra: You can't actually second me

[10:23pm] TeamColtra: I can't make motions

[10:23pm] kusanagi: lol

[10:23pm] OrionSteele: o theni make the motion toAmend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly meeting shall be held no
later than 2 months before November the 4"

[10:23pm] kusanagi: i second

[10:24pm] Bosun: September 19th is 1 month 16 days prior to november 4th

[10:24pm] Deamon: Oops

[10:24pm] TeamColtra: Okay the debate is on the motion presented by OrionSteele

[10:24pm] TeamColtra: Does anyone have any disagreement with his motion?

[10:24pm] CalebLangeslag: Well, how is '2 months before' determined?

[10:24pm] TeamColtra: CalebLangeslag we will clearify it by bylaw

[10:25pm] Bosun: That would be September 4th

[10:25pm] CalebLangeslag: or perhaps I'm just being too nitpicky, even though it may seem obvious

[10:25pm] TeamColtra: Yeah... that's true, but I don't think we can go much later. Even though Talk Like A Pirate Day would be good

[10:26pm] OrionSteele: its probably just a hair too late for a national convention

[10:26pm] TeamColtra: CalebLangeslag your not being nitpicky -- but what if we are actually renting a convention hall or something but they don't have
the place open on tuesday, but they do on wednesday... then we wouldh ave to make an amendment to the constitution to change the date

[10:26pm] TeamColtra: if we outline a general date... and then define it in a bylaw

[10:26pm] Bosun: Should not September 4th be the day set by congress for the presidential election?

[10:26pm] TeamColtra: we can quickly change the date if needed

[10:27pm] Deamon: what do you mean Bosun

[10:27pm] Brady: Section 3: Annual Election Convention

[10:27pm] Brady: A yearly meeting shall be held no later than 2 months before November the 4th as defined in XXX bylaw

[10:28pm] TeamColtra: I also don't think defining the bylaw is a good idea, and it's also impossible since we currently have no system for bylaws

[10:28pm] TeamColtra:

[10:28pm] TeamColtra: The bylaw itself will affect it, it's not actually required to state that there is a bylaw on it

[10:28pm] Bosun: peg the date to the election date set by congress … the language is more general

[10:29pm] Brady: A yearly meeting shall be held no later than 2 months before November the 4th as defined in the bylaws*

[10:29pm] TeamColtra: There is no one date I believe... because the RNC and DNC conventions are on different days

[10:29pm] TeamColtra: Brady that would work

[10:29pm] TeamColtra: I would accept that as a friendly amendment

[10:29pm] TeamColtra: since that was already implied

[10:29pm] TeamColtra: as long as OrionSteele accepts it, since it's his motion

[10:30pm] Brady: So help me craft this proposed amendment in the pad

[10:30pm] OrionSteele: accept

[10:30pm] kusanagi: relink that, brady?

[10:30pm] Sacha: I would personally rather go with less specific language

[10:30pm] Sacha: for the constitution and then more specific for the by laws

[10:30pm] CalebLangeslag: https://piratenpad.de/OAHv5HiVqD

[10:31pm] Sacha: as they are easier to amend and that would make elections more flexible to our needs

[10:31pm] Brady: https://piratenpad.de/OAHv5HiVqD

[10:31pm] Brady: Should we just say "No later than September 4th"?

[10:31pm] Rush: Guys, I need to leave. I have a thing to go to early tomorrow morning and then there's the other stuff. I'll read the log tomorrow.

[10:31pm] Brady: Sacha has a good point.

[10:31pm] Rush left the chat room. (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)

[10:32pm] Brady: "A yearly meeting shall be held before November 4th as defined in the bylaws."

[10:32pm] Brady: That might be TOO vague though

[10:32pm] OrionSteele: accept

[10:32pm] TeamColtra: lol I think thats a bit too vague

[10:32pm] Brady: How about a 'yearly convention'

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[10:32pm] Brady: Convention implies something more formal.

[10:32pm] OrionSteele: I feel like it doesn't matter so long as we provide space for us to hammer out the details later

[10:33pm] Brady: It's probably a good idea to at least explain why this meeting is neeed

[10:34pm] OrionSteele: "A yearly meeting will be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified through the bylaws"

[10:34pm] TeamColtra: That would need to be an amendment to the current motion

[10:34pm] Brady: Check the pad now?

[10:34pm] OrionSteele: Before I offer it as formal amendment

[10:34pm] OrionSteele: Id like to see what people think of that wording

[10:35pm] kusanagi: I think that's perfect

[10:35pm] Deamon: Works for me

[10:35pm] TeamColtra: Nope

[10:35pm] Sacha: I think the wording is too complicated

[10:35pm] TeamColtra: This is a little silly but I have to:

[10:35pm] TeamColtra: Your pad says that you are creating section 3

[10:35pm] TeamColtra: it has to be in section 2

[10:35pm] TeamColtra: as a subpoint

[10:36pm] Deamon: silly, but right

[10:36pm] OrionSteele: Then I cancel my previous motion and instead motion to Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A
yearly meeting shall be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws."

[10:36pm] TeamColtra: You can't cancel out a motion either

[10:36pm] OrionSteele: o

[10:36pm] OrionSteele:

[10:36pm] TeamColtra: Sorry...

[10:36pm] Sacha: What about: A yearly election will be held at a date specified through the bylaws

[10:36pm] TeamColtra: Because it was seconded so it's no longer "your" motion

[10:36pm] TeamColtra: it's the floors motion

[10:36pm] Sacha: My friend is here with me and I think the previous wording was too complex for someone not in on the conversation to understand

[10:37pm] Bosun: we could vote down the floor motion and redo.

[10:37pm] Sacha: correction: it's ambiguous not so much complicated

[10:37pm] TeamColtra: Bosun it's easier to just make it an amendment to the motion

[10:37pm] OrionSteele: This wording: A yearly meeting shall be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws

[10:37pm] Sacha: I think that is really ambiguous and confusing wording

[10:37pm] Deamon: That pretty much defines a convention

[10:38pm] sadyya joined the chat room.

[10:38pm] Sacha: I think there are unnecessary words which we could adjust to be more clear

[10:38pm] TeamColtra: btw, guys, for the most part I am just following roberts rules (except when roberts rules doesn't work for IRC) -- so if you want to know why I am doing what I am doing or have questions, please feel free to check out a copy of Roberts Rules, since it's just the basics you can even get
the public domain version

[10:38pm] TeamColtra: just a point of order

[10:38pm] Sacha: I think "A yearly meeting shall be held at a date specified in the bylaws" says everything we need to know

[10:39pm] OrionSteele: that doesnt say what its for

[10:39pm] Deamon: It needs the purpose of elections

[10:39pm] OrionSteele: amend the floor's motion to instead read, " Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly meeting shall be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws."

[10:39pm] Bosun: an anual convention

[10:39pm] OrionSteele: motion to amend...or whatever

[10:39pm] TeamColtra: is there a second?

[10:39pm] TeamColtra: close enough

[10:40pm] Bosun: second

[10:40pm] TeamColtra: Okay so to clearify, we are no longer debating the merits of the amendment... but rather we are now debating if we should use
this amendment vs the original wording.

[10:41pm] TeamColtra: Does any member object to this wording vs the origional?

[10:41pm] Sacha: Sorry, I meant "yearly elections" not meeting, my bad.

[10:41pm] TeamColtra: The origional was Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly meeting shall be held no later than 2
months before November the 4"

[10:41pm] Brady: Section 2 is Creating State Parties

[10:41pm] TeamColtra: and the new amendment to the motion is on the floor: Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A
yearly meeting shall be held for the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws.

[10:42pm] Bosun: I favor the amended text.

[10:42pm] OrionSteele: as do I

[10:42pm] TeamColtra: I will give a few seconds for anyone to say they object, otherwise we will vote on it

[10:42pm] Brady: I object to the term 'meeting' and would like to propose the term 'convention'.

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: I can accept that as a friendly amendment

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: if OrionSteele can

[10:43pm] OrionSteele: accept

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: Any other objections?

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: If you do just type object

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: and then type your reasoning

[10:43pm] TeamColtra: otherwise I am moving on

[10:44pm] TeamColtra: Okay we are voting on: Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly convention shall be held for
the purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws. to amend the motion on the floor Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with
the text: A yearly meeting shall be held no later than 2 months before November the 4"

[10:44pm] OrionSteele: aye

[10:44pm] TeamColtra: So by voting aye you are just approving the amendment not the motion in general

[10:44pm] Brady: Aye

[10:44pm] Bosun: aye

[10:44pm] Deamon: aye

[10:45pm] kusanagi: aye

[10:45pm] Brady: Point of Reference - Current minimum for a quorum?

[10:45pm] TeamColtra: I observe 1/2 to be quorum

[10:46pm] TeamColtra: sorry 1/2 of total members

[10:46pm] TeamColtra: which I believe is currently 8

[10:46pm] TeamColtra: so 4

[10:46pm] kusanagi: we're at that right now, as rush had to leave.

[10:46pm] TeamColtra: Yeah

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: So no one else leave

[10:47pm] TeamColtra:

[10:47pm] kusanagi: OrionSteele: ping

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: He voted

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: I am calling the vote btw

[10:47pm] kusanagi: oh ok

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: kusanagi tally?

[10:47pm] kusanagi: 4 for, at large for

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: Thank you

[10:47pm] kusanagi: amendment approved

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: now does anyone want to talk about the motion in general?

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: or do we just want to vote?

[10:47pm] TeamColtra: we only need to discuss if someone has an objection

[10:48pm] TeamColtra: Okay seeing no objection

[10:48pm] Brady: No objections from Washington.

[10:48pm] TeamColtra: We are voting on Amend Article VI: Meetings Section 2 to add subpoint 3 with the text: A yearly convention shall be held for the
purposes of party elections at a date specified in the bylaws

[10:49pm] TeamColtra: agree say aye, disagree say nay

[10:49pm] Bosun: aye

[10:49pm] Deamon: aye

[10:49pm] Brady: Aye - Washington

[10:49pm] OrionSteele: aye

[10:49pm] themgt: aye

[10:50pm] TeamColtra: kusanagi

[10:50pm] kusanagi: aye

[10:50pm] TeamColtra: called

[10:50pm] kusanagi: 4 for at large for

[10:51pm] TeamColtra: Okay

[10:53pm] TeamColtra: The amendment passes and goes into effect

[10:53pm] TeamColtra: So CalebLangeslag are you around?

[10:53pm] TeamColtra: actually sorry

[10:53pm] TeamColtra: So what is our plan now for elections?

[10:54pm] CalebLangeslag: Well, yes, I am

[10:54pm] TeamColtra: CalebLangeslag your issue will be addressed next

[10:55pm] Bosun: should we establish an ad hoc convention comitee?

[10:55pm] CalebLangeslag: For elections, there hasn't really been much discussion within the IT committee, since there barely is one

[10:55pm] Brady: Washington motion that an ad goc Convention Committee shall be discussed at the next meeting.

[10:56pm] TeamColtra: seconds?

[10:56pm] kusanagi: yes

[10:56pm] kusanagi: New York seconds

[10:56pm] OrionSteele: second
[10:57pm] TeamColtra: Conversation?

[10:57pm] TeamColtra:

[10:58pm] kusanagi: there really isn't one.

[10:58pm] kusanagi: lol

[10:58pm] kusanagi: yes, let's talk about that at next meeting?

[10:58pm] TeamColtra: Do we have anyone who wants to head it? I would suggest not having someone who intends to run

[10:58pm] Sacha: I would be willing but i'm not sure if I have the credentials

[10:59pm] Bosun: I will. I run for nothing.

[11:00pm] Brady: Washington wanted to host a convention next year, but we'd have to make some serious changes to do that.

[11:00pm] Brady: Seriously, we need someone who has run a con before.

[11:00pm] Brady: It's a huge task.

[11:00pm] TeamColtra: Brady can we stick to our current election?

[11:00pm] kusanagi: Bosun has the experience

[11:00pm] Brady: Apologies.

[11:01pm] OrionSteele: second Bosun

[11:01pm] OrionSteele: (is that how it works?)

[11:01pm] Sacha: If Bosun wants to I support that

[11:01pm] Sacha: is it irl

[11:01pm] CalebLangeslag: Isn't this just discussion of bringing it up at the next meeting, rather than already assigning roles? xP

[11:02pm] OrionSteele: lol yes

[11:02pm] kusanagi: yes, CalebL[laptop]

[11:02pm] kusanagi: erm

[11:02pm] kusanagi: CalebLangeslag:

[11:02pm] Brady: In that case, can we vote on the motion?

[11:02pm] kusanagi:

[11:02pm] Brady: To have it added to the schedule for next week?

[11:02pm] kusanagi: We should

[11:02pm] Bosun: Give it a week and I'll discuss it with our Wisconsin Membership in the interm.

[11:03pm] TeamColtra: So we don't want to vote on this?

[11:03pm] TeamColtra: (to have an election committee)

[11:03pm] TeamColtra: or do we?

[11:03pm] Bosun: Can we just request the chair to add it to next weeks agenda?

[11:03pm] kusanagi: we should vote on that next week

[11:04pm] Bosun: table the motion

[11:04pm] TeamColtra: Okay

[11:04pm] TeamColtra: I will just do that

[11:04pm] Brady: I second the motion(?) to table the current motion.

[11:04pm] TeamColtra: we don't need to vote

[11:04pm] TeamColtra: Executive order

[11:05pm] TeamColtra: Anything else that needs to be discussed then? Or do we want to adjourn?

[11:05pm] Brady: Is the item regarding PNC involvement in state formation something that needs to be covered?

[11:05pm] kusanagi: there's still the item CalebLangeslag brought up

[11:05pm] CalebLangeslag: It's not mandatory

[11:06pm] kusanagi: and CullenMatthews has something on AOB as well.

[11:06pm] Bosun: move to adjourn

[11:06pm] Bosun: I withdraw my motion

[11:06pm] TeamColtra: CullenMatthews, would you like to present?

[11:07pm] CullenMatthews: yes

[11:08pm] TeamColtra: I need to step away (with no respect to CullenMatthews ) I should be back in a minute or two... if things wind down and I am not
here kusanagi can close the meeting in my stead.

[11:08pm] TeamColtra: err no disrespect*

[11:08pm] kusanagi: sure, no problem.

[11:09pm] • kusanagi puts on all three hats

[11:09pm] CullenMatthews: i mentioned in the forums about an international project, i'd figured we needed to get into the media more by making some
sort of political campaign video not just showing US Pirates but all the pirate parties to show the world that we are not alone in our beliefs. again this was
just a thought.

[11:09pm] Deamon: I can help you on that

[11:09pm] kusanagi: there has been some media interest in USPP

[11:10pm] kusanagi: all of it seems to be international media

[11:10pm] kusanagi: Honestly, I don't see why we would need to make an international video; only FLPP is in PPI right now

[11:10pm] kusanagi: We need domestic coverage.

[11:11pm] Sacha: We should keep AGPPP in mind as well

[11:11pm] sadyya: maybe an individual state by state youtube video project?

[11:11pm] sadyya: im just say a suggestion

[11:11pm] OrionSteele: we are doing videos

[11:11pm] sadyya: one that will get people to what we do

[11:11pm] Sacha: if we are working with international, I would also point out that international coverage could be a good way to get domestic press and we shouldn't reject any press

[11:12pm] kusanagi: We're not really working with international.

[11:12pm] kusanagi: i like cullen's idea

[11:12pm] kusanagi: but we could do it as a sort of "meet a pirate" campaign

[11:12pm] kusanagi: post it on our various social media things

[11:12pm] sadyya: yea

[11:13pm] Deamon: Please don't make it like the I'm a Morman campaign though

[11:13pm] kusanagi: and i'm tossing around the idea of #askapirate on twitter

[11:13pm] Deamon: those get creepy

[11:13pm] kusanagi: Deamon: lololol

[11:13pm] sadyya: hahahahaha

[11:13pm] sadyya: ... and I'm a pirate...

[11:13pm] CullenMatthews: lol

[11:13pm] Deamon: If someone can send me the footage I can chop it up and make a YouTube page

[11:13pm] Deamon: It's something I'm very familiar with

[11:14pm] kusanagi: and really, the CAPP meetings are a great launching point for such a project.

[11:14pm] Bosun: CullenMatthews are you in or near Chicago? Can sadyya and I meet with you?

[11:14pm] kusanagi: and Pirate Hour

[11:14pm] CullenMatthews: I will be commuting to the city starting Septemeber 5 for clases at DePaul university

[11:15pm] Sacha: Deamon would be great for this

[11:15pm] Sacha: and I know CAPP may be a bit busy with their own stuff

[11:15pm] Bosun: ooh brown line stop. I'll buy deep dish pizza.

[11:15pm] Sacha: He has a youtube channel he's been doing for years, so I would personally put him on the project if I was making decisions

[11:16pm] ana left the chat room. (Quit: Web client closed)

[11:16pm] kusanagi: Ok, that's awesome.

[11:17pm] itspara joined the chat room.

[11:17pm] kusanagi: this is something that really needs to be fleshed out more than just this before people are put on the project.

[11:17pm] sadyya: oooo Bosun yes ill come

[11:18pm] OrionSteele: yes we would be interested in helping with this, or having it be included as part of the pirate media network

[11:18pm] OrionSteele: lets work out a more detailed plan of what we want to do

[11:18pm] kusanagi: that would work really well

[11:18pm] Deamon: Definately, Cullen, hit me up at some point if you need help with setup

[11:19pm] kusanagi: yay

[11:19pm] kusanagi: ok, so do you all what to flesh this out now?

[11:21pm] kusanagi: or do you guys want to bring this to sab or next week?

[11:21pm] Brady: Rather than #askapirate how about #youareapirate?

[11:21pm] Deamon: We'll work out the details and present later

[11:21pm] OrionSteele: i say spend the week thinking of the ideas and next week have a proposal

[11:22pm] kusanagi: Brady: that was just the twitter hashtag

[11:22pm] Brady: kusanagi - Let's talk about it after adjournment.

[11:22pm] sadyya: i like the twitter hash tag

[11:22pm] kusanagi: sure

[11:23pm] Bosun: I like #youareapirate.

[11:23pm] Brady: So this is also being pushed to the next meeting?

[11:23pm] Brady: Should we motion to adjourn?

[11:23pm] kusanagi: I'm asking you guys.

[11:23pm] kusanagi: I'm acting chair

[11:24pm] Bosun: motion to adjourn

[11:24pm] sadyya: yup

[11:24pm] Brady: I second Bosun's motion to adjourn.

[11:24pm] kusanagi: ok

[11:25pm] kusanagi: one thing

[11:25pm] kusanagi: I have access to USPirates on twitter

[11:26pm] kusanagi: So if you want me to tweet meetings, facebook pages, twitters, etc

[11:26pm] kusanagi: let me know, by IRC or email, kusanagi.chroma@gmail

[11:26pm] sadyya: ok

[11:27pm] kusanagi: so, vote to adjourn?

[11:27pm] Deamon: aye

[11:27pm] Brady: Aye

[11:27pm] CullenMatthews: aye

[11:28pm] Bosun: aye

[11:28pm] kusanagi: and aye from me as well

[11:28pm] kusanagi: good night guys, meeting is next wednesday